Walk to Emmaus DECEPTION or NOt?
Phil G

Galway, Ireland

#125 Oct 15, 2013
punjab wrote:
<quoted text>
Baloney, Phil. You disagree with it. I disagree with small portions of it, and I attended a WTE way back in 2000.
Again, why have you not contacted the Upper Room with your grievances? They are the one who disseminates information on how to run the WTE program in the Emmaus communities. They are the one who officially sanctions Emmaus communities to hold walks.
You don't want true change in how the WTE program is run because that would take away your opportunities to snipe and belittle it.
Well in that case why don't you take your gripe with me to the Topix administrator. You are the one attacking me personally and not engaging with the topic.

The title of this thread (in case you haven't noticed) is "walk to Emmaus deception or not?" which means I am just as free as you to comment on the actual topic.

You however choose to try and deflect away from the topic and acccuse me of sniping.

A cult will typically try to deflect criticism by attacking the critic. If you can tackle the fact that Emmaus uses cult tactics, then you are welcome to engage on that instead of airing personal grievences against me.
I went on a walk

Suwanee, GA

#126 Oct 15, 2013
noteven-close wrote:
Whenever you have a group of people together for 3 or 4 days, and you don’t know everyone’s background, it is wise to take some safety precautions. Sometimes there are people on WTE who have had serious drug problems and it is not wise to leave medications lying around in someone’s luggage or drawer that can be accessed by others. Given the potential risks, any reasonable person would be willing to have their meds stored in a secure place as long as they can have immediate access if needed. This is not unethical, unhealthy or wrong. It is simply using common sense.
However, the situation you describe is bizarre. I have never witnessed anything like it on WTE. That is not to say it couldn’t happen and if it went down the way you describe it then it IS unethical, unhealthy and wrong. If people are unwilling to give up their meds they should simply be asked to leave.
You have written another very thoughtful and respectful response. I appreciate your openness and what you have recounted of your own experience. Clearly, it was very different from my own.

I can see from this thread, we share many likenesses. I, too, have been on too many retreats to count over the course of my 35+ years as a Christian (30 of which were spent in full-time ministry including missionary life overseas.) I've been a preacher, a teacher, a missionary, a writer, a prayer warrior all for Jesus. And like you, I too went on my walk with a bit of arrogance. I'm no stranger to getting sucked into the vortex of pride. So, I relate to much of what you've shared in this thread.

However, what you've stated in the quote above is a tad troubling to me. For one thing,(and I may be REALLY mistaken here) I just don't think the demographic of potential pilgrims for WTE comes from the drug abusing crowd that would necessitate keeping meds under lock and key. The fact is, I've never been on a Christian retreat where thievery was a big concern. Oh sure, it can happen. It has. It will continue to. But it's never been an issue enough to gather up the meds or other valuables.

If people stealing stuff was truly a worry, why were we not instructed to turn over our wallets or money or our expensive name brand shoes or clothing etc? Druggies steal all that stuff to get more drugs. Maybe providing a locker for pilgrims would be the better solution to that worry, if it really even is one in the first place.

But noteven-close, the thing is, THAT was NOT the reason we were given for why our meds were confiscated.

We were told that it was so we could "relax, forget, let someone else do the work, enjoy the ride." So, at least on my retreat, NO ... it was not "common sense" to collect the meds. And to ask someone to either turn over the meds or leave sounds remarkably ... well ... in this context, it sounds remarkably UN-Christian. UN-loving and UN-accepting.

You say you felt loved "warts and all". Maybe one of my "warts" is that I want to keep my medications private. So, where's my acceptance if I'm asked to leave if this is an upset to me?

It is the control aspect of this retreat that is so unnerving and questionable. You are right, all retreats have a schedule to follow. It's a must, no doubt and I have no problem with that at all. But control to the Emmaus degree is over the top. One can't even discreetly excuse themselves to visit the restroom without an escort. Heaven forbid you'd like to take your dump without others knowing that's what you're up to. <sorry>

noteven-close, you REALLY nailed it on one point ... my experience was nothing short of bizarre.
noteven-close

Manchester, KY

#127 Oct 17, 2013
I went on a walk—I apologize for making a wrong assumption as to WHY the meds were being requested. I try not to assume things before getting the facts straight and I made a mistake. But I can’t understand what all the fuss was about. I have never witnessed any of the kind of control you describe. It is not promoted in the Emmaus program and it should not be happening! I am certain the Upper Room would be concerned about it.

It is possible to lodge a complaint with the Upper Room. The complaint needs to identify the particular Emmaus community, the location and date of the Walk and specific details of what happened. I think you should write or email them. The website is www.upperroom.org .

Thanks for sharing more about yourself. I’d love to hear your story if we ever had the chance to talk. I hope it is okay to wish you God’s blessings.

Phil G—I have browsed the websites you mention but I can only find a couple of minor references to WTE. Their search engines aren't helping me much. Can you point me to specific articles that contain discussions of WTE?

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#128 Oct 18, 2013
Phil G wrote:
<quoted text>
Well in that case why don't you take your gripe with me to the Topix administrator. You are the one attacking me personally and not engaging with the topic.
The title of this thread (in case you haven't noticed) is "walk to Emmaus deception or not?" which means I am just as free as you to comment on the actual topic.
You however choose to try and deflect away from the topic and acccuse me of sniping.
A cult will typically try to deflect criticism by attacking the critic. If you can tackle the fact that Emmaus uses cult tactics, then you are welcome to engage on that instead of airing personal grievences against me.
You completely dodged my question Phil. You fail to give a reason why you have seemingly refused to contact the Upper Room with your grievances concerning the WTE and what you believe to be cult-like tactics.

BTW, some "cult-like" tactics as you describe them are employed by other organizations, teams, groups, etc. everyday but nobody would think to call them "cults".

Definition of the word cult: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cul...
Phil G

Ireland

#129 Oct 18, 2013
noteven-close wrote:
I went on a walk—I apologize for making a wrong assumption as to WHY the meds were being requested. I try not to assume things before getting the facts straight and I made a mistake. But I can’t understand what all the fuss was about. I have never witnessed any of the kind of control you describe. It is not promoted in the Emmaus program and it should not be happening! I am certain the Upper Room would be concerned about it.
It is possible to lodge a complaint with the Upper Room. The complaint needs to identify the particular Emmaus community, the location and date of the Walk and specific details of what happened. I think you should write or email them. The website is www.upperroom.org .
Thanks for sharing more about yourself. I’d love to hear your story if we ever had the chance to talk. I hope it is okay to wish you God’s blessings.
Phil G—I have browsed the websites you mention but I can only find a couple of minor references to WTE. Their search engines aren't helping me much. Can you point me to specific articles that contain discussions of WTE?
You can find some info on

www.masters-table.org/warning/Emmaus.htm

www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newpage3111.htm

davemosher.wordpress.com/2013/04/06/what-is-t...

It can also be constructive to investigate cult characteristics and compare them to Emmaus. One useful website:

www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/uploads/CultCha...

I am interested to hear your comments.
Phil G

Ireland

#130 Oct 18, 2013
punjab wrote:
<quoted text>
You completely dodged my question Phil. You fail to give a reason why you have seemingly refused to contact the Upper Room with your grievances concerning the WTE and what you believe to be cult-like tactics.
BTW, some "cult-like" tactics as you describe them are employed by other organizations, teams, groups, etc. everyday but nobody would think to call them "cults".
Definition of the word cult: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cul...
First I have not dodged your question. It was asked and answered. But I will clarify it somewhat. I have talked to Emmaus board and community members who are apparently not authorised to change anything. The Upper Room has made it very clear their program is "carefully planned" and "designed" to operate as it does. I would see no more reason to attempt to change it than I would attempt to change the Book of Mormon. A waste of time.

The reasons why I post on public forums are (1) to reach those who are hurting because of what Emmaus has done to them, friends, or family members. I want them to have more helpful answers than just the official Emmaus lines that are trotted out.

And (2) Emmaus employs a large number of cult methods which are designed and used to manipulate. No Christian group should ever use these methods because they manipulate. That is not God. He wants us to choose Him of our own volition, not because someone has manipulated our emotions.

As regards the use of the word "cult". If you look back over my posts, you will see I have never called Emmaus a cult. I have consistently said it is a program using cult methods. Your point about other organisations using such methods fails to grasp that we are talking about God here, not a play, film, birthday, book, sport or any other human pursuit. You cannot manipulate people into experiences of God.

Emmaus uses a number of cult methods in one weekend, the likes of which you will only find in such numbers in cults. I can think of no other groups/organisations where I would be isolated for 72 hours, subjected to an intensive step by step program, love bombed with gifts and attention, set tasks such as drawing posters and singing silly songs repeatedly, refused contact with my family and friends, not allowed to abstain from talks or events, given emotional manipulatve experiences, not allowed to acknowledge my church or denominational position (even if it's Biblical), told when to go to bed and when to wake up, told I can't have a shower, not allowed to know the time or to take my medications myself, be subjected to terminologies specific to the group, etc etc etc.

Only in a cult do I see this type of collection of methods in the one place at the one time. That is why I say Emmaus uses cult methods. My church certainly uses none of the above. Does yours?

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#131 Oct 18, 2013
Phil G wrote:
<quoted text>
First I have not dodged your question. It was asked and answered. But I will clarify it somewhat. I have talked to Emmaus board and community members who are apparently not authorised to change anything. The Upper Room has made it very clear their program is "carefully planned" and "designed" to operate as it does. I would see no more reason to attempt to change it than I would attempt to change the Book of Mormon. A waste of time.
The reasons why I post on public forums are (1) to reach those who are hurting because of what Emmaus has done to them, friends, or family members. I want them to have more helpful answers than just the official Emmaus lines that are trotted out.
And (2) Emmaus employs a large number of cult methods which are designed and used to manipulate. No Christian group should ever use these methods because they manipulate. That is not God. He wants us to choose Him of our own volition, not because someone has manipulated our emotions.
As regards the use of the word "cult". If you look back over my posts, you will see I have never called Emmaus a cult. I have consistently said it is a program using cult methods. Your point about other organisations using such methods fails to grasp that we are talking about God here, not a play, film, birthday, book, sport or any other human pursuit. You cannot manipulate people into experiences of God.
Emmaus uses a number of cult methods in one weekend, the likes of which you will only find in such numbers in cults. I can think of no other groups/organisations where I would be isolated for 72 hours, subjected to an intensive step by step program, love bombed with gifts and attention, set tasks such as drawing posters and singing silly songs repeatedly, refused contact with my family and friends, not allowed to abstain from talks or events, given emotional manipulatve experiences, not allowed to acknowledge my church or denominational position (even if it's Biblical), told when to go to bed and when to wake up, told I can't have a shower, not allowed to know the time or to take my medications myself, be subjected to terminologies specific to the group, etc etc etc.
Only in a cult do I see this type of collection of methods in the one place at the one time. That is why I say Emmaus uses cult methods. My church certainly uses none of the above. Does yours?
You are right Phil. How could I have been so blind? I wonder how the experience I had 13 years ago has harmed my relationship with God? With my family? With my friends? With my church?

I need to start praying now, asking for God to remove those memories from my mind, asking Him for forgiveness, asking Him to help me remember that the next time somebody from the 'Emmaus community' calls and ask me if I would like to serve on a team on a upcoming WTE that I tell them "NO! And please remove me from your list."

I want nothing more to do with this manipulative, cult-like organization that has hampered the true relationship with my Lord & Savior for years. I will be manipulated no more!

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#132 Oct 18, 2013
Phil G wrote:
<quoted text>
You can find some info on
www.masters-table.org/warning/Emmaus.htm
www.deceptioninthechurch.com/newpage3111.htm

I am interested to hear your comments.
Anti-Catholic drivel.

We didn't know you were anti-Catholic, Phil.
noteven-close

Manchester, KY

#133 Oct 18, 2013
Phil G wrote—“He does not condone the methods....”

This statement is simply false. I agree that the pastor is concerned about the apathy of the church but nowhere does he condemn the “methods” you claim are cultist. He is NOT uncomfortable with giving up his watch and cell phone or with being cloistered away from his family for 72 hours. He actually speaks favorably of the acts of agape and other events that you condemn as manipulative and dangerous. He says:

“Many of the activities of an Emmaus weekend have therapeutic value….These aspects of the weekend can have a tremendous psychological boost…. It moved me tremendously to receive such an outpouring of love.”

He never condemns as cultist the Emmaus gatherings and accountability groups. He clearly recognizes the legitimacy of accountability groups, stating that “the principles behind this kind of group are similar to those of other small group models.”

He is concerned that Emmaus can become a substitute church for some people, a concern I readily share. He says this happens “because of the unconditional love and support of those who have participated, the Reunion groups and the Gatherings are more warm and receptive than some members’ own churches.”

However, he is correct to point out that this is not the intent of the Emmaus program, but that the “purpose behind this movement is to make Christians better church members,” and that “the official stance of the movement is not to allow Emmaus to become a substitute church.”

He clearly encourages churches to adopt a similar model as WTE, but with its own doctrinal content. He even gives examples of how that can be accomplished. He states,“The church community needs to become as tightly knit and unconditionally accepting as an Emmaus weekend.”

I couldn’t agree with him more on these points. But you and he are not in agreement on the issue of “methods” and it is less than honest to suggest otherwise.

Thanks for the websites. I will need some time to review them. I am finding to others to be pretty enlightening.
Phil G

Wexford, Ireland

#134 Oct 19, 2013
punjab wrote:
<quoted text>
Anti-Catholic drivel.
We didn't know you were anti-Catholic, Phil.
Well this is typical Emmaus type backlash. Where is that Agape Love you learnt at Emmaus? I am not anti-Catholic but I am pro-Bible and pro the Lord's provision for salvation by dying on the cross for our sins. I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and am therefore part of the body of Christ.

The Bible tells me that grace is not from works. Some churches say grace comes through sacraments just as Emmaus says. That is through works and my Bible says if that's the case, it is not grace. That automatically puts me on a collision course with any teaching that says otherwise be it the Cathollic or Protestant.
Phil G

Wexford, Ireland

#136 Oct 19, 2013
noteven-close wrote:
Phil G wrote—“He does not condone the methods....”
This statement is simply false. I agree that the pastor is concerned about the apathy of the church but nowhere does he condemn the “methods” you claim are cultist. He is NOT uncomfortable with giving up his watch and cell phone or with being cloistered away from his family for 72 hours. He actually speaks favorably of the acts of agape and other events that you condemn as manipulative and dangerous. He says:
“Many of the activities of an Emmaus weekend have therapeutic value….These aspects of the weekend can have a tremendous psychological boost…. It moved me tremendously to receive such an outpouring of love.”
He never condemns as cultist the Emmaus gatherings and accountability groups. He clearly recognizes the legitimacy of accountability groups, stating that “the principles behind this kind of group are similar to those of other small group models.”
He is concerned that Emmaus can become a substitute church for some people, a concern I readily share. He says this happens “because of the unconditional love and support of those who have participated, the Reunion groups and the Gatherings are more warm and receptive than some members’ own churches.”
However, he is correct to point out that this is not the intent of the Emmaus program, but that the “purpose behind this movement is to make Christians better church members,” and that “the official stance of the movement is not to allow Emmaus to become a substitute church.”
He clearly encourages churches to adopt a similar model as WTE, but with its own doctrinal content. He even gives examples of how that can be accomplished. He states,“The church community needs to become as tightly knit and unconditionally accepting as an Emmaus weekend.”
I couldn’t agree with him more on these points. But you and he are not in agreement on the issue of “methods” and it is less than honest to suggest otherwise.
Thanks for the websites. I will need some time to review them. I am finding to others to be pretty enlightening.
Well your reading of it is completely different to mine. I will let others decide on who's interpretation is correct. I find it hard to believe this pastor would condone the fact that he was not let discuss his point that scripture says something different to Emmaus or that his church should isolate people for 72 hours and feed them an intensive non-optional program. That doesn't come through my reading of it. And it certainly isn't the Biblical approach.

The reason I gave you the cult characteristics website link is so as you can examine for yourself if Emmaus is taking some of those methods for its program. That is what I would be particularly interested in. Differences in Theology is one thing, but as that pastor showed, it is entirely different if you cannot disagree while at the same time expected to contribute to the table discussion.
noteven-close

Manchester, KY

#137 Oct 19, 2013
I have read the articles you referenced and have spent considerable time reviewing other articles and blogs on these sites. There is some very beneficial material here, and I sincerely appreciate the efforts of Christian apologists who desire to help believers recognize the dangerous teachings and practices which are so prevalent today. But these writers are extremely narrow, hyper critical and are far outside the mainstream of Christian apologetics. They viciously attack a number of highly regarded Evangelical leaders (a small partial list includes Tony Campolo, Jack Hayford, Beth Moore, Rick Warren, Ed Young, Jr., Bill Hybels, Max Lucado, Richard Foster and, of all people, A.W. Tozer) and a host of respected mainstream Christian ministries (try Youth with a Mission and the Salvation Army).

They are hyper critical of anything ecumenical or Pentecostal/Charismatic. They condemn every church that uses “Purpose Driven” material and even criticize the National Day of Prayer for its ecumenical emphasis. These sites are pretty much all in the same family of thinkers. They are so hyper critical that one site criticizes another for not being tough enough on Tozer’s so-called “Christian mysticism.”(truth is, not a one of these guys could carry Tozer’s briefcase)

Still, as radically critical as these writers are, they make very little reference to WTE, and I could find no charges of “cult” behavior. Their primary criticisms are that Emmaus promotes “contemplative spirituality”(as if that in itself is something evil and unchristian), promotes doctrinal errors, may be charismatic (again, very evil), is ecumenical and may, God forbid, suck us back into the Mother Church (of course, extremely evil). There are dangers in ecumenism and in Catholicism that bible believing Christians should be aware of but these writers are on the far extreme, and any hint of either of these is supposed to send people scurrying like rats to for the nearest hiding place. Much of it is, as Punjab says, a lot of anti-Catholic (and anti-ecumenical) drivel.

We usually think of heresy as taking place on the far left (liberalism) but it can just as easily occur on the far right (narrow legalism). In fact, the narrow legalists caused the crucifixion of Jesus. I’ll stop short of declaring these writers to be heretics but they are certainly radical and some are of the same temperament as those who picked apart Jesus. Can’t you imagine their expose’s of this fanatical new demon inspired cult leader who eats with sinners, works on the Sabbath, practices some Charismatic stuff like healing people and, horror of all horrors, claims to be God!

Again, it is very important to be discerning of false teachings and practices, but it isn’t necessary to join an ultra-right fringe group of heresy hunters who are sifting through every straw in the haystack to find something they can criticize. They foster suspicion, division, paranoia, even hatred, and are themselves much more dangerous than many of the movements and people they attempt to expose.

It is enlightening, though not entirely surprising, to find that these are the kind of Christian thinkers that are influencing you? It helps us to understand more clearly where you are coming from. You can live on that radical fringe if you like but there is no reason for any Bible believing reader here to join you, and some very good reasons not to. Still, as hyper critical as these people are, you have not produced a reputable Christian apologist or cult expert who shares your extreme views about Emmaus.
Phil G

Ireland

#138 Oct 20, 2013
Noeven-close

I find it amusing to read how you dismiss warnings. Even Jesus was outside the "mainstream" of the religious leaders. However, my main contention about Emmaus has always been about the control it exerts over the pilgrims. This control is as a result of cult methods. Anybody has the choice of which church they attend and which doctrine they believe. None of those churches exert such control that Emmaus uses (mind you you will find a lot of Catholic people in my country complaining of the control the Catholic church employed over them!). But cults do use similar control methods. The question is not whether Emmaus uses cult type methods, but is it right for it to do so?

I have talked to a number of people who have been hurt by Emmaus and each person points to the excessive control of Emmaus as the reason behind that hurt. That is common across denominations and locations. It is not because some Emmaus communities are being over zealous, but that they are adhering to the program. For instance, one common cause of complaint is there are secrets. Emmaus says there are no secrets but also advises sponsors not to reveal certain aspects such as candlelight or dying moments. That will lead to accustaions being secretive. The "What is Emmaus?" booklet also states there are no secrets and that withholding information by some pilgrims is harmful, yet it doesn't tell us what is it that these pilgrims are not telling us.

I gave you a link to a website listing cult methods from several different sources. If you read down these lists you can spot a number of methods common to Emmaus. These same methods are not used in mainstream churches. If Emmaus is justified in using these methods, then so are cults. There is no legitimate reason why cults can't use them if they are not harmful. Yet that is exactly how people are trapped into cults. So they are harmful. They are harmful because they manipulate. I don't need reputable or disreputable Christian Apologists to see that for myself. It is a matter of common sense.
noteven-close

London, KY

#139 Oct 20, 2013
Phil G wrote—“The reason I gave you the cult characteristics website link is so as you can examine for yourself if Emmaus is taking some of those methods for its program.”

I have lifted this statement out because it is the core of my concern. I became aware of this thread after a friend read it and was alarmed at the “cult” allegation and my primary purpose in posting here has been to expose that allegation as false and misleading.

I appreciate the pages on cult practices. I know you are trying to be helpful and are hoping that I will see something that helps me understand your concern. I do have a pretty good knowledge of what cults are and how they function. I also think I understand why you are troubled by the methods used in WTE. If we can ever get beyond the cult language then perhaps we can talk seriously and rationally about the things that really trouble you and what actually might be wrong with Emmaus. But we must deal with that first because it is the elephant in the room. So I suggest we try to zero in on it for a little bit.

I will briefly summarize my views as given in previous posts. I have agreed that WTE and many cults use a number of the same or similar methods. I have argued that Emmaus methods are not cultist because they do not rise to that level, for two reasons:

1. They are not abnormal or unethical. These methods are observed in many ways in everyday living and in many organizations and are in themselves morally neutral.

2. Emmaus methods are not used for the destructive purpose of domination and control as they are used in cults. Emmaus does not try to control the lives and resources of its followers for its own ends the way cults do. This is critical to understand how a cult functions and why Emmaus is different.

I have also suggested that society tolerates a great deal of unethical and negative manipulative behavior from political, social and religious leaders before we start calling it cultist. So the methods must be fairly extreme.

I know you have already responded to this in a number of ways, such as that all manipulation is wrong, the number of methods used in the same place and the same time is a problem and that WTE does practice a considerable amount of control. But it would be helpful to see your thoughts put together as a cohesive rebuttal to the above points. Just tell me where and how they are wrong. We can talk in general about methods or we can break them down to one method at a time. Whatever helps bring clarity to this issue.
enlightened

Annville, KY

#140 Oct 21, 2013
CULT! Cult! Cult! See you even mention 'FOLLOWERS OF EMMAUS'! We are only supposed to be 'FOLLOWERS' of God! We are not to be followers of some secert religious like organization! The bible speaks against this! All we need, God gave us on the cross,His son,with outstretched arms! Anyone who is looking or searching for something all we have to do is go to Him! Not some secret manipulative organization! Fall on your knees and ask God to forgive you for getting on the wrong track and influencing others to do so! Organizations like this are sending people to Hell!'Servants' bringing you little gifts and singing silly songs cannot save you!This may make you feel loved at the moment but in a time of desperation and dying, who are you going to cry out to ,your Emmaus friends or God? Think about it!
noteven-close

London, KY

#141 Oct 21, 2013
enlightened wrote:
CULT! Cult! Cult! See you even mention 'FOLLOWERS OF EMMAUS'! We are only supposed to be 'FOLLOWERS' of God! We are not to be followers of some secert religious like organization! The bible speaks against this! All we need, God gave us on the cross,His son,with outstretched arms! Anyone who is looking or searching for something all we have to do is go to Him! Not some secret manipulative organization! Fall on your knees and ask God to forgive you for getting on the wrong track and influencing others to do so! Organizations like this are sending people to Hell!'Servants' bringing you little gifts and singing silly songs cannot save you!This may make you feel loved at the moment but in a time of desperation and dying, who are you going to cry out to ,your Emmaus friends or God? Think about it!
Controversy in the body of Christ is both essential and deadly. It is essential in the pursuit of truth. We are challenged in the scriptures to contend for the faith and to defend it. In the course of that it is inevitable that controversy will occur. If two persons, or two parties, hold at the core of their faith, the precious gift of God in what Jesus did for them on the cross they should be able to come together and reason together over other issues about which they disagree. That is healthy controversy that can lead all parties closer to truth. But controversy in the body of Christ can become deadly. When one or both parties throw reasoning together out the window and resort to bitter attacks and vicious accusations then a deadly poisonous venom is spewed all over the House of God.

It is obvious from your post that you hold dear and precious Jesus’ death on the cross. It is also true that the central purpose of the Emmaus program is to point people to that same Jesus who died on the cross for all of us. If we share that precious truth in common we should be able to reason together. I believe if you took your concerns to local Emmaus leaders they would hear you out and reason with you. That would be healthy and beneficial to both sides. Calling Emmaus a cult and declaring that it is sending people to Hell is deadly venom that brings death and hinders God’s purpose in reconciling the world to Himself.

I have thought about it, but will you?
enlightened

Annville, KY

#142 Oct 21, 2013
You dance all around what I said and come up with a whole mouthful of nothing!

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#143 Oct 23, 2013
Phil G wrote:
<quoted text>
Some churches say grace comes through sacraments just as Emmaus says.
Hmmm, that's not what I heard during the grace talks given by clergy on the WTE I attended. But since you are too cowardly to even consider attending a WTE I guess you will have to continue grasping at straws and drawing conclusions from heresay.
I went on a walk

Suwanee, GA

#144 Oct 25, 2013
On the topic of secrecy, here's a question:

What is the purpose of not disclosing the location of an Emmaus retreat?
enlightened

Annville, KY

#145 Oct 25, 2013
noteven-close wrote:
<quoted text>
Controversy in the body of Christ is both essential and deadly. It is essential in the pursuit of truth. We are challenged in the scriptures to contend for the faith and to defend it. In the course of that it is inevitable that controversy will occur. If two persons, or two parties, hold at the core of their faith, the precious gift of God in what Jesus did for them on the cross they should be able to come together and reason together over other issues about which they disagree. That is healthy controversy that can lead all parties closer to truth. But controversy in the body of Christ can become deadly. When one or both parties throw reasoning together out the window and resort to bitter attacks and vicious accusations then a deadly poisonous venom is spewed all over the House of God.
It is obvious from your post that you hold dear and precious Jesus’ death on the cross. It is also true that the central purpose of the Emmaus program is to point people to that same Jesus who died on the cross for all of us. If we share that precious truth in common we should be able to reason together. I believe if you took your concerns to local Emmaus leaders they would hear you out and reason with you. That would be healthy and beneficial to both sides. Calling Emmaus a cult and declaring that it is sending people to Hell is deadly venom that brings death and hinders God’s purpose in reconciling the world to Himself.
I have thought about it, but will you?
No what is deadly as poison is teaching anything other than true repentance thru Christ and compromising with sin! The main problem I see with Emmaus here, is acceptance of anything and everything! That will send us to Hell whether you agree or not! We can sugar coat sin,give each other gifts and sing shuck a banana all day long and make one feel better about themselves, but that does not save us! Again if we are not saved we are on our way to hell!I dont know if the Emmaus program is pretty much the same everywhere .Here in this county Emmaus is blown up as the best feeling in the world and the only answer anyone here has been is Whow! You will just have to go see for yourself!Ok they beg and push everyone that is in the middle of divorce, mostly from committing adultry, people who are addicted to drugs and alchol, theives whatever, to go on the walk. Ok while they are on the walk they shower them with gifts, sing to them , light candless for them even go to the bathroom with them,and all kinds of other gestures. This makes them feel good at the time and they come back and confess that Emmaus has changed their life and that they are saved and on fire for God.They all get together and if one has a snot, another Emmaus member will wipe their nose for them showing the "agape" love. Most of the time after a few months or so, if even that long, the new wears off and they are most always right back to their old ways or worse.Do you want to know why this happens? Because nothing other than Jesus and true repentance thru him can save us and transform us from our old nature. Anything else cannot change us and will fail everytime. Again why I say 'religious organizations "LIKE" this will send us to hell.Ok then the Emmaus members around here are so wrapped up in Emmaus and have blown it up so much and glorified it, that even though they see and know that the members have went right back to their same old ways, they cover up for them and put them on a pedestal and allow them to teach Sunday school, youth leaders,etc.therefore leading more souls right in to a devils hell by deceit and sugar coating and making these people think that anything they do is ok because they went on the walk.When there are leaders in the church doing these kinds of things they are the example our children have to follow.The children look up to their leaders and think it is fine to do as they do. So is this sending souls to hell or not?

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