Are You Sick of Hearing about Civility?

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#61 Feb 3, 2011
Mr Logic in Jax wrote:
<quoted text>
May step into this debate and address at a high level this issues.
1. As to Health Care reform, this is not the first step of government into the arena of who should PAY for an individuals healthcare, oh which also means “What” should be paid for and how much. Before 1973 the majority of people if they chose to purchased their own heath insurance or paid their doctor directly. Then in 1793 the Federal Government (With Union Support) passed the Health Maintenance Organization Act of 1973 which “Required” yes “Required” employers with 25 or more employees to offer federally certified HMO options if the employer offers traditional healthcare options. Federally certified means mandated By the Government and thus in directly controlled by the Federal Government. Obamacare is just the second phase.
2. On gun control, if you define gun control as those who chose to break law not having guns then you are correct there is no gun control and by the never will gun control. If you define “Gun Control” as the Federal and Local Government restricting access, possession and use for personal protection by law abiding citizens then we do have gun control in many varying degrees across the United States.
3. Government intrusion; This one you must be very careful with since there is a HUGE difference in having the power through existing laws and regulations for the government to act. One the Government and all its bureaucracy makes it difficult if not impossible to act efficiently, since most decision makers think only on political bases. Secondly, if you have some political and legal power but desire “MORE” what is the easiest way to gain more, simple fail to use the power you have then ask for even more power to fix the problem you help cause. IMHO this theory holds true for the housing bubble “Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac” both ran by the government and using the oil spill in the gulf to restrict domestic oil production and drive up cost.
Your bring up some good points:

Point 1: Even so, one still has a choice to pick what insurance you want, be it private or federally "mandated" as you put it. I have federally "mandated" HMO type insurance that I CHOOSE, and was never forced down my throat. I had a choice between the insurance plans offered by my employer and the Federal one that I qualified for as a retired Vet. I choose the federal one and it is the best choice compared to the private ones.

Point 2. We need gun control. But most are put in place by States. The Constitution guarantees law abiding citizens to bear arms, like myself and many others out there, as long as you follow the rules. It is not difficult to do.

Point 3. I have one thing to say about this: There are things the government should never get into, like mandating you have medical insurance or be fined!! Unconstitutional, period.

Since: Jan 11

Jacksonville, Florida

#62 Feb 3, 2011
SeaBass wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Healthcare: Being FORCED to purchase health insurance does nothing but prop up the greedy health insurance companies you so despise. If you dislike them so much, perhaps you'll be happier paying the fine to the IRS.
2. Gun control: Maybe we should ask Gabby Gifford's husband or her - after all, she is a pro-gun advocate. I have a better idea...lets ask the thousands of victims of home invasions, robberies, rape, murder in "gun-controlled" cities like Washington, Chicago, and NYC. Gun control is victim disarmament.
3. Government intrusion: LACK of government involvement? You mean like the Community Reinvestment Act? How about the Frank-Dodd Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act which has done exactly the opposite of what was intended? Do you consider the Patriot Act a necessary Government intrusion too?...and let's not forget that the Obama administration granted BP a regulatory exemption on an impact study. A lot like the exemptions he's granting certain companies and pals to get out of the healthcare requirements. Face it, they're lining the pockets of the very people you seem to hate.
There is NOTHING the Government can't screw up. We need less of it not more.
You're good at making your case Sea Bass though your facts are skewed.
The only thing wrong with those new laws is that they don't go far enough.
The Health care law WOULDN'T have been a windfall for the health insurance cartel if there existed a public option. When that died, the effectiveness of the bill was greatly damaged. Still it does much to protect Americans, but then, that's something a strong government would be needed for, so I'm not surprised that you're against it.
Personally, I favor a single payer system. Now THAT would be a REAL government takeover of healthcare!
I'm with you on the Patriot Act, but I'm not so worried about the reach of government power as I am about the reach of corporate power.
noshellswill

Saint Augustine, FL

#63 Feb 3, 2011
Spitshine wrote:
<quoted text>
See, there you go again. Were you a member of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union?
... punt...

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#64 Feb 3, 2011
Balthezar wrote:
<quoted text>You're good at making your case Sea Bass though your facts are skewed.
The only thing wrong with those new laws is that they don't go far enough.
The Health care law WOULDN'T have been a windfall for the health insurance cartel if there existed a public option. When that died, the effectiveness of the bill was greatly damaged. Still it does much to protect Americans, but then, that's something a strong government would be needed for, so I'm not surprised that you're against it.
Personally, I favor a single payer system. Now THAT would be a REAL government takeover of healthcare!
I'm with you on the Patriot Act, but I'm not so worried about the reach of government power as I am about the reach of corporate power.
I agree. While there are Federal medical INS options geared for specific groups, such as Medicare, Tricare Prime, etc, a public option would of been a great idea, but the private sector would of made sure that it would not have been cost effective for those who choose to use it, especially in the area of the agreed upon payments from the government to the doctors/specialists/etc.

“Just Add Obama ”

Since: Mar 08

Jacksonville Florida

#65 Feb 4, 2011
Balthezar wrote:
<quoted text>
You're good at making your case Sea Bass though your facts are skewed.
The only thing wrong with those new laws is that they don't go far enough.
The Health care law WOULDN'T have been a windfall for the health insurance cartel if there existed a public option. When that died, the effectiveness of the bill was greatly damaged. Still it does much to protect Americans, but then, that's something a strong government would be needed for, so I'm not surprised that you're against it.
Personally, I favor a single payer system. Now THAT would be a REAL government takeover of healthcare!
I'm with you on the Patriot Act, but I'm not so worried about the reach of government power as I am about the reach of corporate power.
LOL, comparing corporate power to government power is like comparing the power of an electric car to a semi-truck. Corporate power can not throw in jail and take away your freedom, Corporate power cannot take your Property (land and other) away from you by force. Corporate power cannot force you to buy something you don’t want unless you desire to become a criminal. Government Power can do all of these things.

Personally, I favor a single payer system also, just a little different version, wait a really, different version, the single payer is me making sure the doctor / hospital is paid.

“Just Add Obama ”

Since: Mar 08

Jacksonville Florida

#66 Feb 4, 2011
Egyptian Uprising
Balthezar wrote:
<quoted text>
The Egyptians were chased out of Sinai! C'mon dude!
We all need to urge our leaders to drop recognition of the Mubarak government.
The anti-Mubarak protesters are only doing as we would in the same predicament.
I think you missed the point and you might want to read that history of that war. The Egyptians are going to get a new government that is already done, however if the first action items is to start a war with Israel then they this push for freedom and democracy will be short lived. Not that Israel will take over but that Shari Law in some from will be put into place and IMHO, they is little freedom under that type of rule.

“Just Add Obama ”

Since: Mar 08

Jacksonville Florida

#67 Feb 4, 2011
Posted last post on wrong thread
noshellswill

Saint Augustine, FL

#68 Feb 4, 2011
Mr Logic in Jax wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL, comparing corporate power to government power is like comparing the power of an electric car to a semi-truck. Corporate power can not throw in jail and take away your freedom, Corporate power cannot take your Property (land and other) away from you by force. Corporate power cannot force you to buy something you don’t want unless you desire to become a criminal. Government Power can do all of these things.
Personally, I favor a single payer system also, just a little different version, wait a really, different version, the single payer is me making sure the doctor / hospital is paid.
Your Aynn Rand fantasy caravan is rolling. American corporate power has done ... an continues to do all those evil things. Every American has experienced those outrages ... and many foreign peoples.

Even worse than control, mega-corps push the individual to **believe** evil grasping Enron/CDS-chit/Madoff-like corporate behavior is virtuous.

Corrupt -- rotten to-the-core. That sadly is modern American corps.
Gawd sakes LIJ just because you grew up in Soviet Latvia doesn't mean you can't read an American history book.

“Just Add Obama ”

Since: Mar 08

Jacksonville Florida

#69 Feb 4, 2011
noshellswill wrote:
<quoted text>
Your Aynn Rand fantasy caravan is rolling. American corporate power has done ... an continues to do all those evil things. Every American has experienced those outrages ... and many foreign peoples.
Even worse than control, mega-corps push the individual to **believe** evil grasping Enron/CDS-chit/Madoff-like corporate behavior is virtuous.
Corrupt -- rotten to-the-core. That sadly is modern American corps.
Gawd sakes LIJ just because you grew up in Soviet Latvia doesn't mean you can't read an American history book.
Shame on you noshellswill for not reading in context again, shame shame….. Not talking about here, we are talking about the “Here-and-Now”.

The comparisons was modern day corporate power verses modern day Government Power and which should be feared the MOST! Both have power however, which has the most power and can cause the most damage to personally Freedom. BTW, the year is 2011 and not 1811 just a little FYI.
Congratulations

Jacksonville, FL

#70 Feb 4, 2011
Spitshine wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. While there are Federal medical INS options geared for specific groups, such as Medicare, Tricare Prime, etc, a public option would of been a great idea, but the private sector would of made sure that it would not have been cost effective for those who choose to use it, especially in the area of the agreed upon payments from the government to the doctors/specialists/etc.
You've just won the prize for longest run on sentence. Your first sentence was two words, but was followed by a 66 word sentence. Good grief!

Since: Jan 11

Jacksonville, Florida

#71 Feb 4, 2011
Mr Logic in Jax wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL, comparing corporate power to government power is like comparing the power of an electric car to a semi-truck. Corporate power can not throw in jail and take away your freedom, Corporate power cannot take your Property (land and other) away from you by force. Corporate power cannot force you to buy something you don’t want unless you desire to become a criminal. Government Power can do all of these things.
Personally, I favor a single payer system also, just a little different version, wait a really, different version, the single payer is me making sure the doctor / hospital is paid.
Mr Logic, I implore you not to be deceived as to how powerful the corporations are. Indeed the only times I distrust our government is when it becomes entangled in corporate vines.
P. S. I'll bet Sea Bass agrees with that one!

“Just Add Obama ”

Since: Mar 08

Jacksonville Florida

#72 Feb 4, 2011
Balthezar wrote:
<quoted text>
Mr Logic, I implore you not to be deceived as to how powerful the corporations are. Indeed the only times I distrust our government is when it becomes entangled in corporate vines.
P. S. I'll bet Sea Bass agrees with that one!

You are worried about me being deceived. WOW!
noshellswill

Saint Augustine, FL

#73 Feb 4, 2011
Mr Logic in Jax wrote:
<quoted text>
Shame on you noshellswill for not reading in context again, shame shame….. Not talking about here, we are talking about the “Here-and-Now”.
The comparisons was modern day corporate power verses modern day Government Power and which should be feared the MOST! Both have power however, which has the most power and can cause the most damage to personally Freedom. BTW, the year is 2011 and not 1811 just a little FYI.
Better make that ..."... cause the most damage to personal well-being...". Cause well-being is the bottom line. Whatever system provides the most/best/robust/certain/stabl e personal well-being will be the chosen system. Wealth for 2% and poverty for 98% will get your throat cut in republican 21-st century America. Makes no difference why.

Nationalist self-reliance is king. Even as it places a republican boot.heel in its opponents face and steps down ! "Freedom (untainted by productive action)... is just another word for nothing left Toulouse "
noshellswill

Saint Augustine, FL

#74 Feb 4, 2011
Balthezar wrote:
<quoted text>
Mr Logic, I implore you not to be deceived as to how powerful the corporations are. Indeed the only times I distrust our government is when it becomes entangled in corporate vines.
P. S. I'll bet Sea Bass agrees with that one!
The tyrannies of Stalin and Hitler do not support your casual viewpoint toward unrestrained Gub'mnt power. Unless of-course you are a fan of Stalinist/Nazi culture. Calling the Gub'mnt **our** Gub'mnt is either to place yourself in Bushes empire_building class or in Cleavers lupin-prole class.

Overwhelmingly most Americans would prefer ... and place themselves in neither class.

“Just Add Obama ”

Since: Mar 08

Jacksonville Florida

#75 Feb 4, 2011
noshellswill wrote:
<quoted text>
Better make that ..."... cause the most damage to personal well-being...". Cause well-being is the bottom line. Whatever system provides the most/best/robust/certain/stabl e personal well-being will be the chosen system. Wealth for 2% and poverty for 98% will get your throat cut in republican 21-st century America. Makes no difference why.
Nationalist self-reliance is king. Even as it places a republican boot.heel in its opponents face and steps down ! "Freedom (untainted by productive action)... is just another word for nothing left Toulouse "
What in holly hell are you posting about now, what does "Wealth for 2% and poverty for 98%" have to do with this thread? I mean seriously the debate you replied to was about modern day corporate power verses modern day Government Power, and you come up with something that has no relevance.

“Just Add Obama ”

Since: Mar 08

Jacksonville Florida

#76 Feb 4, 2011
noshellswill wrote:
<quoted text>
Overwhelmingly most Americans would prefer ... and place themselves in neither class.
Are sure about that statement, cause if true I doubt this thread would not have been needed.
noshellswill

Saint Augustine, FL

#77 Feb 4, 2011
Mr Logic in Jax wrote:
<quoted text>
Are sure about that statement, cause if true I doubt this thread would not have been needed.
Outrageous LIJ ! You make a perfectly **bright-line** argument based on risk that separates the communitarian from the libertarian political agendas.

Some fear the Gub'mnt gun-barrel most.

Some fear globalist mega-corps boot.heel most.

NSS fears snake-goddess Gaia most.

Gawdsakes take responsibility! The ideological clash is perfectly clear to me, yet you wish to do away with the conflict ? Yes you may do that, by making the strongest most inclusive argument for your point, and presenting weakening examples toward the other positions.
noshellswill

Saint Augustine, FL

#78 Feb 4, 2011
Mr Logic in Jax wrote:
<quoted text>
What in holly hell are you posting about now, what does "Wealth for 2% and poverty for 98%" have to do with this thread? I mean seriously the debate you replied to was about modern day corporate power verses modern day Government Power, and you come up with something that has no relevance.
Tut tut LIJ... I corrected an **error** in your post. You mistakenly claim that liberty(to thieve) is the first human concern, but that is certainly false. The complex of behaviors we call **Well being** is the item of first importance. Consult Maslows list. Naturally liberty is one commponent of well-being.

But!! Only a robber, a 2nd-story man, a bandit , a highwayman, a pirate and a hornswaggler considers his **liberty to thieve** of primary importance. Views shared from Attila to Madoff!

Then the Gub'mnts **liberty to hang** comes into play. he he he

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#79 Feb 4, 2011
Congratulations wrote:
<quoted text>
You've just won the prize for longest run on sentence. Your first sentence was two words, but was followed by a 66 word sentence. Good grief!
Je suis SUPER!!!
tankspellingtard

United States

#80 Feb 4, 2011
Congratulations wrote:
<quoted text>
You've just won the prize for longest run on sentence. Your first sentence was two words, but was followed by a 66 word sentence. Good grief!
OMGawd.....!!!!!

thank you sir so many grammatical errors here on topix and really no one capable and qualified to tackle such an enormous task.

we should all have a moment of silence to honor this fine fellow for his devotion to the internet in general and topix in particular. with so many problems in the world today you sir are one who can stay focused on what is really required to correct the deficiencies of society.

once again......THANK YOU!!!!!!!!..;);););)

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