Open carry demonstration.

Open carry demonstration.

Posted in the Irvine Forum

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Citizen

Irvine, KY

#1 Apr 12, 2013
I have seen a lot of videos on youtube where members are creating a friend based group and having an open carry meeting to inform the public about their constitutional rights. I think this would be something we could do maybe a meet at the park or something what do you guys think?
sitting bull

Irvine, KY

#2 Apr 12, 2013
Citizen wrote:
I have seen a lot of videos on youtube where members are creating a friend based group and having an open carry meeting to inform the public about their constitutional rights. I think this would be something we could do maybe a meet at the park or something what do you guys think?
Huh?

“I been hangin' on every word.”

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#3 Apr 12, 2013
Citizen wrote:
I have seen a lot of videos on youtube where members are creating a friend based group and having an open carry meeting to inform the public about their constitutional rights. I think this would be something we could do maybe a meet at the park or something what do you guys think?
I have been carrying concealed ever since I was legally allowed to. I will occasionally open carry, but when I'm out and about I generally don't out of respect for any shop owners that may not want me carrying in their store.

Not to say that I'm going to go put my gun in my car just because someone has a sign saying "no weapons" on their door--they just don't need to know I happen to be carrying.
hahaha

United States

#4 Apr 12, 2013
Citizen wrote:
I have seen a lot of videos on youtube where members are creating a friend based group and having an open carry meeting to inform the public about their constitutional rights. I think this would be something we could do maybe a meet at the park or something what do you guys think?
nice try sherlok

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#5 Apr 12, 2013
You dont need a support group in this matter.. The second amendment is all you need. If a business doesnt like me exercising my rights.. then I dont need to be in that business

“I been hangin' on every word.”

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#6 Apr 12, 2013
The Virg wrote:
You dont need a support group in this matter.. The second amendment is all you need. If a business doesnt like me exercising my rights.. then I dont need to be in that business
I think they do it more to raise awareness...lots of times people see someone with a gun strapped to their side, and think, "They can't do that, can they?!?"

Then they research whether you can or not. And because the research is strongly on the side of second amendment supporters, they quickly understand why people "can do that," and why they should, too.
Citien

Irvine, KY

#7 Apr 12, 2013
Kick Brass wrote:
<quoted text>
I think they do it more to raise awareness...lots of times people see someone with a gun strapped to their side, and think, "They can't do that, can they?!?"
Then they research whether you can or not. And because the research is strongly on the side of second amendment supporters, they quickly understand why people "can do that," and why they should, too.
Exactly my point! People think it's against the law and they couldn't be farther from the truth. If people see an individual with a gun on their side they become alarmed when they should not be at all. Remember guys a convicted felon is not going to have his firearm on display for the world to see. It is not against the law, you don't have to have a license and it is your right to do so!
Citizen

Irvine, KY

#8 Apr 12, 2013
*Citizen

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#9 Apr 12, 2013
You have to understand that we have allowed the stigmatism of openly carrying to go too far and you can't merely just conviene as a group in public and expect no trouble. Not that Im against open carry because I do it my self sometimes but we have to be willing to take steps to erase the stigmatism in the public eye. We didn't get this way overnight and Im afraid that a sudden congregation of people openly carrying in a park or other area would only result in not only trouble from law enforcement due to the stuck up city halls, but further alienate the concept behind the Second Amendment in society.
Could be

Bolivar, MO

#10 Apr 13, 2013
To each his own

“I been hangin' on every word.”

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#11 Apr 13, 2013
The Virg wrote:
You have to understand that we have allowed the stigmatism of openly carrying to go too far and you can't merely just conviene as a group in public and expect no trouble. Not that Im against open carry because I do it my self sometimes but we have to be willing to take steps to erase the stigmatism in the public eye. We didn't get this way overnight and Im afraid that a sudden congregation of people openly carrying in a park or other area would only result in not only trouble from law enforcement due to the stuck up city halls, but further alienate the concept behind the Second Amendment in society.
All too often open carrying results in individuals being arrested without cause, only to have those arrests overturned and the officers and departments punished publicly for their violations of the law. We have some good police officers in Irvine, but there are going to be one or two cops anywhere who don't understand the law.

For example, if I am walking down the street, gun on my side, I am not legally required to show any sort of "permit" to carry, or to even show my driver's license, identify myself, or even talk to the police officer in question.

Folks who are stopped by a police officer should immediately ask, "Am I being detained?" If the answer is no, then they are presumed free to leave. If the answer is yes, then the police officer is expected to provide you with the name of the crime he has REASONABLE SUSPICION to expect that you did. "You're carrying a gun so you are suspicious" does not count. If a police officer detains you but cannot provide any law that he believes you may have broken, he may be guilty of false imprisonment and be subject to civil and criminal penalties.

Now if a police officer asks you to stop, you stop. This isn't one of those situations where you decide to run/walk away because you "assume" you are in the right--you'll quickly see the inside of a jail cell if you do in most situations. But it is very good to have it documented that yes, you protested the violation of your rights.

It is helpful to have a smartphone to document any interaction with police. Police are there to serve a good purpose, but that purpose includes convicting individuals of crimes--the last thing you want to do is help them out unnecessarily especially when you are innocent. Broadcasting to a live audience on your smartphone is optimal, as many of these services will auto-record what is going on, and even if not you may have a few dozen witnesses to come to your aid. In Irvine with its stark lack of broadband wireless access this may be difficult, but in a city like Lexington it gets much easier.

It is important to know your rights because not doing so allows them to be taken. Most police (over 90% in the last polls that have come out on the news) support allowing law-abiding citizens to have access to firearms, so the police are generally on your side. But just like every other group of individuals in this world (gas station attendants, bus drivers, bank tellers, etc.,) there are a few who do not follow the rules, and it is your job as a citizen to document these interactions to protect yourself.

“I been hangin' on every word.”

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#12 Apr 13, 2013
Citien wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly my point! People think it's against the law and they couldn't be farther from the truth. If people see an individual with a gun on their side they become alarmed when they should not be at all. Remember guys a convicted felon is not going to have his firearm on display for the world to see. It is not against the law, you don't have to have a license and it is your right to do so!
Exactly. And a police officer does not have the legal right to know your name or ask for your identification if you are so armed. You can walk out the door in a bathrobe with no wallet with a gun strapped to you and as long as the wind doesn't blow the wrong way you are 100% legal.

Of course some cops will decide to stop and frisk you anyway...the magic words you MUST remember here are, "Officer, I do not consent to any searches." Say this definitively, loud and precisely, and as often as necessary, to ensure that any dash cam, passer by, or your own recording device catches you saying it.

Police officers will often ask something along the lines of, "Would you mind if I search your car/person?" Regardless of what you answer, they will then pretend that your statement was consent ("You don't mind? Okay." "Yes, I can? Okay.").

So if you do decide to open carry practice recalling and repeating those important words:

"Am I being detained, officer, OR am I free to go?"
"I do not consent to any searches."

And if necessary,

"I refuse to answer any question without an attorney present."

You probably won't need any of these in such a gun-friendly place as Irvine, but it never hurts to know them anyway.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#13 Apr 13, 2013
Unfortunately in small towns like this, people give city council members way too much respect and authority than they actually have or deserve and as a result all they have to do is give orders to police and they follow them, Don't believe me?? Just look upon River Drive after 6 pm.. Its a virtual ghost town made possible by the Irvine City Council.. DO NOT TAKE THEM LIGHTLY
mom1

Irvine, KY

#14 Apr 13, 2013
to hahaha, just leave Virg be. No one smarts off to you with their posts. Virg has every right to post comments, just as you do.
yes they can

London, KY

#15 Apr 13, 2013
Kick Brass wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly. And a police officer does not have the legal right to know your name or ask for your identification if you are so armed. You can walk out the door in a bathrobe with no wallet with a gun strapped to you and as long as the wind doesn't blow the wrong way you are 100% legal.
Of course some cops will decide to stop and frisk you anyway...the magic words you MUST remember here are, "Officer, I do not consent to any searches." Say this definitively, loud and precisely, and as often as necessary, to ensure that any dash cam, passer by, or your own recording device catches you saying it.
Police officers will often ask something along the lines of, "Would you mind if I search your car/person?" Regardless of what you answer, they will then pretend that your statement was consent ("You don't mind? Okay." "Yes, I can? Okay.").
So if you do decide to open carry practice recalling and repeating those important words:
"Am I being detained, officer, OR am I free to go?"
"I do not consent to any searches."
And if necessary,
"I refuse to answer any question without an attorney present."
You probably won't need any of these in such a gun-friendly place as Irvine, but it never hurts to know them anyway.
A police officer DOES have the legal right to ask for identification when you are carrying. One reason is to check whether or not you're a convicted felon because a convicted felon cannot be in possession of a firearm, they can also run the gun to see if it's stolen. An officer DOES have the right to frisk you for his own protection but can't search you're personal property without a search warrant.

“I been hangin' on every word.”

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#16 Apr 13, 2013
yes they can wrote:
<quoted text>
A police officer DOES have the legal right to ask for identification when you are carrying. One reason is to check whether or not you're a convicted felon because a convicted felon cannot be in possession of a firearm, they can also run the gun to see if it's stolen. An officer DOES have the right to frisk you for his own protection but can't search you're personal property without a search warrant.
Only if he has reasonable suspicion to believe you are acting illegally. However simply carrying does not provide that basis. Carrying concealed does give them the right since you must be licenced to carry concealed, which is why you must show your license when asked if driving. Running your serial is a 4th amendment violation as is the "show me your papers" example.

This is why these demonstrations are helpful...there is much confusion on Kentucky gun laws.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#17 Apr 13, 2013
Im just asking that the gatherings be well organized by someone very reputable like thee NRA or the GOA...otherwise we run the risk of making the public mistrust open carriers even more
yes they can

London, KY

#18 Apr 13, 2013
Kick Brass wrote:
<quoted text>
Only if he has reasonable suspicion to believe you are acting illegally. However simply carrying does not provide that basis. Carrying concealed does give them the right since you must be licenced to carry concealed, which is why you must show your license when asked if driving. Running your serial is a 4th amendment violation as is the "show me your papers" example.
This is why these demonstrations are helpful...there is much confusion on Kentucky gun laws.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong and I'm not "confused" about Ky. gun laws. I know the laws on concealed carry, I'm talking about open carry. Also, what does "show me your papers" have to do with anything?

“I been hangin' on every word.”

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#19 Apr 14, 2013
yes they can wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sorry, but you're wrong and I'm not "confused" about Ky. gun laws. I know the laws on concealed carry, I'm talking about open carry. Also, what does "show me your papers" have to do with anything?
The problem here is that gun ownership is not a privilege like driving a car is, thus we of course do not have to be "licensed" to open carry. Because it would be considered an undue hardship to require any individual who open carries to pay to have an ID made (as many in Kentucky do not drive but wish to defend themselves), it would be an infringement on one's rights to say, "Since you do not own an ID, you can not carry openly."

A police officer is allowed to ask anything he or she wants--however, an individual is not required to provide a police officer with identification unless the police officer has detained that individual under reasonable suspicion of a crime. This is in Kentucky, of course. The following states do have some sort of "stop and identify" laws that, while unconstitutional, are legal in their respective states:

Alabama Ala. Code §15-5-30
Arizona Ari. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13,§2412 (enacted 2005)
Arkansas Ark. Code Ann.§5-71-213(a)(1)(loitering)
Colorado Colo. Rev. Stat.§16-3-103(1)
Delaware Del. Code Ann., Tit. 11,§§1902, 1321(6)
Florida Fla. Stat.§901.151 (Stop and Frisk Law); §856.021(2)(loitering and prowling)
Georgia Ga. Code Ann.§16-11-36(b)(loitering)
Illinois Ill. Comp. Stat., ch. 725,§5/107-14
Indiana Indiana Code §34-28-5-3.5
Kansas Kan. Stat. Ann.§22-2402(1)
Louisiana La. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A); La. Rev. Stat. 14:108(B)(1)(c)
Missouri Mo. Rev. Stat.§84.710(2)
Montana Mont. Code Ann.§46-5-401
Nebraska Neb. Rev. Stat.§29-829
Nevada Nev. Rev. Stat.§171.123
New Hampshire N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann.§594:2,§644:6
New Mexico N.M. Stat. Ann.§30-22-3
New York N.Y. Crim. Proc. Law §140.50
North Dakota N.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF)
Ohio Ohio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006)
Rhode Island R.I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1
Utah Utah Code Ann.§77-7-15
Vermont Vt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24,§1983
Wisconsin Wis. Stat.§968.24

(Copypasted of course).

As Kentucky is not a "stop and identify" state, a police officer must have reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed to stop and identify you. Since exercising a legal right (the second amendment) is not in itself suspicious, there is no legal basis to demand ID simply because that person has a weapon. If so, a police officer could also ask any person on the street for their ID to ensure that person is not a fugitive on the run, a person with outstanding warrants, etc.

The fourth amendment allows for protection against unreasonable search and seizure. Since openly carrying is a protected and constitutionally "perfectly normal" thing, it is thus not overtly suspicious to simply exist with a displayed weapon.

All of the legal protection in the world, of course, may not help if a police officer decides that their understanding of the law supersedes yours. Remember that cops are humans, too, and don't always know the letter of the law regarding gun rights. It is very likely that a person doing exactly what I mentioned above could be arrested by a police officer who does not know the law, and be required to go to court and have the charges dismissed when found clearly invalid.

In all encounters with police it is advisable to be courteous, but to understand that while it is a police officer's job to find and arrest those who break the law, it is your job as a citizen to exercise your rights or risk losing them. This includes advising police officers that you do not consent to any searches, that you prefer to remain silent until a lawyer is contacted, and that you would like to know if you are being detained, or if you are free to go.
Lib

London, KY

#20 Apr 18, 2013
Will there be tickets sold?

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