Man Wounded By Gunfire At Tulsa's Apache Manor

[crime-hater]

I worked part-time while in college and had roommates to help with bills. Once I graduated I started full-time with the company I was with then about 4 years later I decided to yet go back to school. I took classes in the evening while I worked during the day and eventually took on a part-time job in addition to my full-time job, while taking 4 classes at TCC. I now have a good job, still work part-time, and am considering go back to school in the spring. Granted I do not have any children, however I believe I heard at one point in my life, "if there is a will, there is a way." Most people in section 8 housing just don't have the will-power to improve their situation.

[Tulsa West Sider]

crime-hater wrote:

I worked part-time while in college and had roommates to help with bills. Once I graduated I started full-time with the company I was with then about 4 years later I decided to yet go back to school. I took classes in the evening while I worked during the day and eventually took on a part-time job in addition to my full-time job, while taking 4 classes at TCC. I now have a good job, still work part-time, and am considering go back to school in the spring. Granted I do not have any children, however I believe I heard at one point in my life, "if there is a will, there is a way." Most people in section 8 housing just don't have the will-power to improve their situation.

Hold your head high! You are not a bum or someone who feels entitled just because you were born here. We need more like you.

[Property Professional]

I am glad that some of you thought this through a little but more. Making a difference one person at a time is good enough for me. As for the comment on me being a liberal you couldn't be further off, though I do not expect you to understand. I too pursued my goals, sought education and worked hard as many of you have. I am simply asking that you remember the others within the system that ARE doing that same thing. They are in there mixed with the others who are less than desirable citizens as with any income level. I know of an elderly woman with 2 sons in Iraq fighting for your freedom or so they are told by our government. Her other son is in a wheelchair with two limbs that will not move. She is alone and seriously disabled. What say you for people like her? I have other clients with MS. What of them? Do you believe will power is their problem also? I see the good, the bad, and the ugly. I simply said do not discriminate nor segregate based on income. How many people do you know right now one paycheck away from homelessness? For stats and info. you may visit the HUD website, OHFA web, THA site and more. Do your research before speaking and "judge not lest ye be judged." It may be a poor man that saves your life one day. As for the GED's and etc. there are many involved in these programs and many more that have to do with all of the things you believe they need. I hope they are able to succeed and contribute to positve changes despite the struggle.

[Tulsa West Sider]

Property Professional wrote:

I am glad that some of you thought this through a little but more. Making a difference one person at a time is good enough for me. As for the comment on me being a liberal you couldn't be further off, though I do not expect you to understand. I too pursued my goals, sought education and worked hard as many of you have. I am simply asking that you remember the others within the system that ARE doing that same thing. They are in there mixed with the others who are less than desirable citizens as with any income level. I know of an elderly woman with 2 sons in Iraq fighting for your freedom or so they are told by our government. Her other son is in a wheelchair with two limbs that will not move. She is alone and seriously disabled. What say you for people like her? I have other clients with MS. What of them? Do you believe will power is their problem also? I see the good, the bad, and the ugly. I simply said do not discriminate nor segregate based on income. How many people do you know right now one paycheck away from homelessness? For stats and info. you may visit the HUD website, OHFA web, THA site and more. Do your research before speaking and "judge not lest ye be judged." It may be a poor man that saves your life one day. As for the GED's and etc. there are many involved in these programs and many more that have to do with all of the things you believe they need. I hope they are able to succeed and contribute to positve changes despite the struggle.

OK, so some people are in need. I never denied that. It's the thugs, bums and crack heads in Section 8 housing I object to paying for.

As far as "judge not, lest ye be judged", save that for Sunday School. We can all read the paper and KOTV news accounts, and we know who is causing the problems.

[Property Professional]

p.s.

Maybe if more people would spend time in the neighborhoods you are so afraid to enter change would come sooner. Those who care, stop complaining, get off your computers and get involved in your community. You would know who the section 8 recipients are and have a better understanding of the program regulations. Don't be scared of the unknown, the different, the disabled or the lower income families. I have seen just as many rich people that have been far more viscious. Check those stats on your way out.

[Tulsa West Sider]

Property Professional wrote:

p.s.
Maybe if more people would spend time in the neighborhoods you are so afraid to enter change would come sooner. Those who care, stop complaining, get off your computers and get involved in your community. You would know who the section 8 recipients are and have a better understanding of the program regulations. Don't be scared of the unknown, the different, the disabled or the lower income families. I have seen just as many rich people that have been far more viscious. Check those stats on your way out.

Are you for real? Spend time around Apache Manor?

Why would anyone want to go around a place where killings happen?

And have you been there?

[Property Professional]

I have been there several times. I am not afraid. Murders happen all over our city. This is simply not a low income issue.

Why would you want to? I can't say. I only know why some of us go there and other places where our help is needed. I help the people you forget. I do not condone handouts, drug use or laziness. I change what I can by helping others find there way out of a system that tends to be a catch 22. What do you do to help the city? If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[veteran]

property professional wrote:

I understand that this type of behavior is disheartening and completely out of hand however I have to disagree with some of the statements made within these postings. Section 8 residents should not be stereotyped nor segregated from the rest of the community. This makes us no better than anyone else. I am in the field helping low income families everday and am higly educated in this area. People with felonies within the last 3 years are not aloud into those programs and not all are thugs. Many are simply disabled, elderly and alone, victim of circumstance, and others were not fortunate enough to been given the opportunity to finish school much less be spoon fed a college degree.We must improve the system of housing, enforce the laws, punish the guilty, educate the young, and pull together as a comunity to strengthen ourselves as a whole. Those of you afraid to report crime have to step up also. Those of you with influenece speak with your mayor about cutting our police force. When the economy goes down crime goes up and all she can say is turn out half the city lights and fire half of the officers. Please rethink your opinions. You may need help one day, too.

sounds like a bleeding heart liberal. but you sure don't mind those high dollar commision checks do you sweetie

[Tulsa West Sider]

Property Professional wrote:

I have been there several times. I am not afraid. Murders happen all over our city. This is simply not a low income issue.
Why would you want to? I can't say. I only know why some of us go there and other places where our help is needed. I help the people you forget. I do not condone handouts, drug use or laziness. I change what I can by helping others find there way out of a system that tends to be a catch 22. What do you do to help the city? If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

I don't do a thing in the community to "help" except go to work every day and pay the taxes that support the bums, dope heads, those truly in need, and I suppose YOUR salary, unless you volunteer your time. Do you?

You can stop with the high and mighty "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" nonsense. We're not all social workers.

What are we all supposed to do? Go en masse and give the murderers a group hug at Apache Manor and it will all be better?

I don't enjoy exchanging barbs with you. I will soften a bit if you will come off your naive high horse. Deal?

[Property Professional]

Not necessary. I am not offended by uneducated jabs or afraid to defend those who cannot defend themselves. I am no better, have no high horse, do not receive commission checks and am not a social worker. How can I worry about people like Veteran who cannot even spell "commission" and what he thinks of it? There is much you can do if you are truely interested and not sarcastic. I will be happy to provide the information to you and anyone else who would like it. Naive I am not. I am the one out there. You are behind a pc.

[shovelhead72]

Tulsa West Sider wrote:

<quoted text>
P.S.
Since you are educated in this field, could you please provide some government statistics that give some insight into the demographics of Section 8 tenants?
I am curious as to the reason they can't work, or if they do work, what percent of them work
What is their handicap
Their criminal history
The number of children in the household
Whether there is 1 or 2 parents, etc.
Please help me understand who the Section 8 people are?

West Sider, I know that you did not specifically post to me. However, I feel I must reply to your valid query. I am a former section 8 recipient, as a single mother with 2 children. I have a master's degree in special education, from NSU. I have no criminal history. I have always held a job, since I was 17 years old. Until I obtained my college education, those jobs were low paying; usually I try to work 2 jobs, 1 outside and 1 inside the home (I am also a certified masseuse, and have a small regular clientele). Both my children graduated from High Schools here in Tulsa. I am now employed quite gainfully, but while I was paying off my student loans, there was very little money in the budget for groceries, let alone other needs, after paying rent. If not for the Section 8 program, my children would have grown up in much worse but more affordable conditions. I was on section 8 from 2002 until 2008. I hope this helps to answer your question. Have a great night.

[Property Professional]

Thank you Shovelhead. It is those like you I work and fight for. Congratulations on your sucess and in raising your children through the milestone that is graduation!

[shovelhead72]

Property Professional wrote:

Thank you Shovelhead. It is those like you I work and fight for. Congratulations on your sucess and in raising your children through the milestone that is graduation!

Thanks, man. They earned it. But because of help from THA, I was able to put them in modest houses, not apartment complexes full of thugs and delinquents. I feel strongly that this fact, coupled with the examples I tried to set, encouraged them to view their education as the invaluable tool it was, and will continue to be, for their further success. Thanks to you, and other landlords like yourself too, for being part of the solution.

[Jason in Oklahoma]

Upstream wrote:

Further proof that these crappy government subsudized apartment complexes need to either be monitored like a prison or bulldozed down to the ground. There are some people who live in these criminal war zones who don't participate in criminal activity and it's a shame that they have to put up with this. And what about the poor kids who are thrown into these **** holes. I'd be scared to death to have to raise a child in these places. I wish they would pass a law that says if you commit a felony you can't get government assistance. As it is now, if you commit a felony, you can't vote or carry a gun but you sure can still collect a government welfare check.

My family and I lived inside Apache Manor for 2 years. I wasn't committing any felonies either, we didn't have any choice but to live there, we ended up homeless due to job loss and was in a homeless shelter that told us we had to take whatever housing we was offered we had to take or else, so we had to choose from Apache Manor or Comanche Park.(The lesser of 2 evils...)We did see children who were outside during the summer months from 8am to almost midnight...a few came to our door begging for snacks because their mammas locked them out so they could be smoking crack or whatever else...it was pure h.e.l.l. living there, but we moved outnow and am really glad we did.

[Jason in Oklahoma]

Tulsa West Sider wrote:

I make an occasional typo myself, but is KOTV hiring high school kids to post these stories to the web?
I think it hurts their journalistic integrity and credibility.
I also cannot imagine what kind of life it must be for poor, law abiding people to have to live in such a place. It looks like they would take a second job if need be, and get to a safer place to live.

It would be nice if it all was that easy, wouldn't it? I wonder if you've ever even went over there to do some kind of community service to see for yourself the place. You can be cynical all you want, but the best thing everyone can do in these kind of places is volunteer to make it a better place for those who are law abiding, lower income people who have no choice to live there...the comment has been made about the children...the only ones it seemed to want to come do something with the children was Victory Christian Center, that's sad when only 1 church will come in...there's so many organizations in Tulsa.

[Tulsa West Sider]

shovelhead72 wrote:

<quoted text>West Sider, I know that you did not specifically post to me. However, I feel I must reply to your valid query. I am a former section 8 recipient, as a single mother with 2 children. I have a master's degree in special education, from NSU. I have no criminal history. I have always held a job, since I was 17 years old. Until I obtained my college education, those jobs were low paying; usually I try to work 2 jobs, 1 outside and 1 inside the home (I am also a certified masseuse, and have a small regular clientele). Both my children graduated from High Schools here in Tulsa. I am now employed quite gainfully, but while I was paying off my student loans, there was very little money in the budget for groceries, let alone other needs, after paying rent. If not for the Section 8 program, my children would have grown up in much worse but more affordable conditions. I was on section 8 from 2002 until 2008. I hope this helps to answer your question. Have a great night.

Congratulations! You are one of those I have advocated giving a hand UP to. We need many more like you! Much continued success.

[Property Professional]

Good to here from you Jason. The more people know about the people placed in these situations the better. Congrats! You are why we do what we do.

[Tulsa West Sider]

Jason in Oklahoma wrote:

<quoted text>
It would be nice if it all was that easy, wouldn't it? I wonder if you've ever even went over there to do some kind of community service to see for yourself the place. You can be cynical all you want, but the best thing everyone can do in these kind of places is volunteer to make it a better place for those who are law abiding, lower income people who have no choice to live there...the comment has been made about the children...the only ones it seemed to want to come do something with the children was Victory Christian Center, that's sad when only 1 church will come in...there's so many organizations in Tulsa.

I hear what you're saying. I thought there would be more outreach, especially from North Tulsa churches.

I have a serious question --

How do you entice the people who would like to make a difference to go to a place where killings occur and they don't feel safe?

[Property Professional]

You really need a good resident services coordinator or outreach person on staff at the property full time to find out what organizations are out there and available. There are alot more than you realize and they will come in if the staff begins building a relationship with those agencies. Churches will come but outreach for them is limited due to the fact that they are shorthanded many times and with so many problems out there they are spread pretty thin .Some people working at charitable organizations are paid to perform those duties everyday. Other groups of volunteers travel throughout the country serving different missions even if only for a day. Get management to address and enforce rules and needs.