Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72042 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#66625 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>

"Since you can't explain how any of this got here (or any of us), then my explanation of god is the correct one." Or something to that effect.
I NEVER said my way is the correct one.

Where did you get that? All I am saying is that there are a variety ways to approach "religion", and that your notion of what religion is, is rooted in Western (Christian) philosophy.

And in doing that, I broadly presented another approach, that arguably is one of the major strands of Judaism. Not the only strand. But a major, and traditionally popular strand.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66626 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>

I think when you say you experience god, you are simply experiencing life.
My opinion is that to develop an authentic spirituality, one has to start from where they are (instead of trying to fit themselves into someones else's or some texts's box).

So the first step is to note that you are experiencing life.

For many people, possibly you, definitely COR, that is enough. You can go on with your day with that knowledge and experience.

But for others, who feel a draw, or a calling, or a mystical curiosity, that might not be enough. So they might feel moved to explore beyond (or deeper) your statement "experiencing life". That act is religion. Same precoccupation ("life") but deeper sense of experience.

Just like you can read the paper while eating breakfast, OR eat breakfast and focus on the tastes, smells, colors, and textures of what you are eating. The latter is a deeper experience. Thats all spirituality really is, IMO.

Since: Aug 11

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#66627 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
...Same precoccupation ("life") but deeper sense of experience.
Not sure you meant it this way, but this type of statement has an air of arrogance about it with the implication that someone with an atheistic viewpoint has a less deep sense of experience of life. In a different post, you also referred to your approach as more holistic, again with the implication that ours is less holistic. May I suggest you replace the word "deeper" in your statement with "different" (unless you really meant it that way).

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66628 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Not sure you meant it this way, but this type of statement has an air of arrogance about it with the implication that someone with an atheistic viewpoint has a less deep sense of experience of life. In a different post, you also referred to your approach as more holistic, again with the implication that ours is less holistic. May I suggest you replace the word "deeper" in your statement with "different" (unless you really meant it that way).
How about "more focused"?

".....Just like you can read the paper while eating breakfast, OR eat breakfast and focus on the tastes, smells, colors, and textures of what you are eating. The latter is a deeper experience. Thats all spirituality really is, IMO.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66629 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
How about "more focused"?
".....Just like you can read the paper while eating breakfast, OR eat breakfast and focus on the tastes, smells, colors, and textures of what you are eating. The latter is a deeper experience. Thats all spirituality really is, IMO.
Wow. So atheists are less focused? Must be a pretty bleak life we live, at least, that's the way you're making it sound. BTW - this is a pretty common cliche against atheists - and completely wrong.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66630 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
....” Belief in God stems not from the intellect but from the will to ­live, reflecting the faith that there is enough in the world for man's needs, although not for man's "greeds and lusts." Divinity is that coordinating, integrating factor in nature that makes possible the actualization of jus­tice, truth, and compassion on earth.
Well....I have "the will to live." Now you'll tell me that I believe in god?

I also believe in "justice, truth and compassion for the earth." So?

This may be a part of any belief system or religion but it is not the basis for worshiping an unknown and unknowable deity. Or for eating milk and meat out of separate dishes.

Any when you say "Everything Is God" - then how can anyone really argue with that?

"Do you believe in god?" "Sure, just look around." Same old tired argument.

As I said, when all else fails, just move the goalposts.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66631 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You are almost there - making progress..hang in there...
See - you just objectified the verb. You didnt experience playing - you DESCRIBED it. Thats totally my point. We objectify GOD with godtalk. We captured it. But the "essence" so to speak can also be a fluidity.
How to pray to a verb? As much as you need a "a" to pray to, you create it, to give your brain something to focus towards. But at the same time, you can also experience it as well, which is a different type of encounter.
When I experience you (by reading you) I dont experience your essence (though I can pretend or imagine it) I experience my reaction TO you, and your reaction TO me. And that is the limit of my knowledge OF you.
You still haven't used god as a verb.

What you're saying, if I understand - is that you're thinking on/about everything around you, your life, the earth - all of this for which we have no explanation. And you strive to understand it and to appreciate it. To "examine" your life and your place in the world, All good stuff! And you you call in worship or praying.

I think a lot about the same things - I just don't call it religion or praying.

A rose by any other name.

Save your money though and just do it on your own. Plus it may free up your Saturdays!

:))

Also, as CoR points out, I believe we think just as deeply and just as focused as you do. We do it our own vs within an organized ritualistic tradition of scripture etc.

Doesn't make it any less effective for us.

And it frees up our weekends, plus it's free!

You can do it - break free! As you know many atheists are former Jews.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66632 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But you have no more evidence for the objectification of a conscience than I have to provide for you the objectification of God. How big is your conscience? Is it measureable?
The same for "life".
I never discounted your normative modes of operation. All I am doing is trying to explain other ways. At the end of the day your practices and my practices should arrive at the same place. In Bhuddism this is called "return to the marketplace" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bulls
\

Let me understand.

Are you saying you want proof that people think? That we have internal conversations with ourselves? That some might call the inner voice that tells us to do the right thing a conscience.

And because I can't offer you actual proof, your god exists?

Keep moving those goalposts!

:)
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66633 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My opinion is that to develop an authentic spirituality, one has to start from where they are (instead of trying to fit themselves into someones else's or some texts's box).
So the first step is to note that you are experiencing life.
For many people, possibly you, definitely COR, that is enough. You can go on with your day with that knowledge and experience.
But for others, who feel a draw, or a calling, or a mystical curiosity, that might not be enough. So they might feel moved to explore beyond (or deeper) your statement "experiencing life". That act is religion. Same precoccupation ("life") but deeper sense of experience.
Just like you can read the paper while eating breakfast, OR eat breakfast and focus on the tastes, smells, colors, and textures of what you are eating. The latter is a deeper experience. Thats all spirituality really is, IMO.
Do you agree that your "spirituality" is taking place in the organ we call a brain?

Do you agree that your spirituality, mysticism etc are electrically charged chemical reactions in your brain and nothing more?

I don't say they aren't adding meaning to your life.

Your post also repeats the condescending notion that non-religious folks somehow aren't deep thinkers and/or aren't fully experiencing life on the level theists do. Don't forget our patent lack of curiosity.

It has been my experience that religion and arrogance often walk hand in hand. "The other religions are all wrong and atheists are utterly devoid or moral rudders."

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66634 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
How about "more focused"?
".....Just like you can read the paper while eating breakfast, OR eat breakfast and focus on the tastes, smells, colors, and textures of what you are eating. The latter is a deeper experience. Thats all spirituality really is, IMO.
Neil deGrasse Tyson's response to the question "What is the most astounding fact you can share with us about the Universe?"

http://youtu.be/9D05ej8u-gU

Can you listen to his words and tell me that Atheists/Agnostics think less deeply, less holistically, less focused than a religious/spiritual person?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66635 Jan 31, 2014
For fans of Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)...

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?-- Douglas Adams"

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66636 Jan 31, 2014
Humanist/Philosopher Paul Kurtz on the Meaning of Life...

http://youtu.be/dnYJLWdFHaY

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66637 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
\
Let me understand.
Are you saying you want proof that people think? That we have internal conversations with ourselves? That some might call the inner voice that tells us to do the right thing a conscience.
And because I can't offer you actual proof, your god exists?
Keep moving those goalposts!
:)
You keep moving this back into an argument. I dont get it why you are having the need to do this.

All I was doing was reflecting back you the limits of language and logic to be fair.

Then providing other ways to look at it. You dont have BELIEVE in the other ways. But I am describing them, as per your request. None of the other ways preclude your way.

No goal posts. No game. No winning.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66638 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
For fans of Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)...
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?-- Douglas Adams"
I never posited there were fairies, NOR a god in the way you are fighting against

And if there was, and someone believes that they saw it, who are we to doubt it?

Like my comment to FOR, I dont get why you keep fighting a straw battle.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66639 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Neil deGrasse Tyson's response to the question "What is the most astounding fact you can share with us about the Universe?"
http://youtu.be/9D05ej8u-gU
Can you listen to his words and tell me that Atheists/Agnostics think less deeply, less holistically, less focused than a religious/spiritual person?
To me its not about the thinking. I THOUGHT I made that clear, when I said we create God because we need a "a" to relate to.

Its about the experiencing.

If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll (nod to FR) too.

There are two types of people out there - simplistically. Those that are aware, and those that are not. How you want to label them is your business.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66640 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you agree that your "spirituality" is taking place in the organ we call a brain?
Do you agree that your spirituality, mysticism etc are electrically charged chemical reactions in your brain and nothing more?
Its impossible to sense with anything other than the biology one has.

I also believe in evolution and science. So what?

You keep looking for contradictions.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66641 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You still haven't used god as a verb.
What you're saying, if I understand - is that you're thinking on/about everything around you, your life, the earth - all of this for which we have no explanation. And you strive to understand it and to appreciate it. To "examine" your life and your place in the world, All good stuff! And you you call in worship or praying.
I think a lot about the same things - I just don't call it religion or praying.
Kewpie doll to you!

Now, when you eat breakfast, do you read the paper, or do you focus on the meal?

IF for some inexplicable reason you wanted to learn how to focus MORE on the meal, and someone gave you a practice or a technique to enable you, why wouldnt you embrace this?

BTW you keep hanging yourself up with a notion that I use religion to explain how the world works. I never said that. And I dont. You are imposing a theology on me.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>A rose by any other name.
Save your money though and just do it on your own. Plus it may free up your Saturdays!
:))
Also, as CoR points out, I believe we think just as deeply and just as focused as you do. We do it our own vs within an organized ritualistic tradition of scripture etc.
Doesn't make it any less effective for us.
And it frees up our weekends, plus it's free!
You can do it - break free! As you know many atheists are former Jews.
I was a "practicing" Bhuddist for a number of years, and interestingly enough, it was not contradictory to my the practice of Judaism OR an atheistic belief.

I dont get why you see the world (choice of religion vs atheism ) in black and white terms. You could learn from the Bhuddist approach.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66642 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Well....I have "the will to live." Now you'll tell me that I believe in god?
I also believe in "justice, truth and compassion for the earth." So?
This may be a part of any belief system or religion but it is not the basis for worshiping an unknown and unknowable deity. Or for eating milk and meat out of separate dishes.
You stated earlier that noone worships a verb (i.e. a process) and I responded that people do.

Then I followed up with a quote from a leader of a popular Jewish movement that believes God is a process, not a person - to back it my assertion.

I never asked you buy into the theology. Personally, I am not fan of that particular brand myself. I prefer AJ Heschel who I quote yesterday - who is less a pantheist and more a panentheist.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>Any when you say "Everything Is God" - then how can anyone really argue with that?
EXACTLY! Now stop wasting your time with mental gymnastics (that do nothing but give you fits) and go meditate! Or eat an apple. Or watch a sunrise.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66643 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
To me its not about the thinking. I THOUGHT I made that clear, when I said we create God because we need a "a" to relate to.
Its about the experiencing.
If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll (nod to FR) too.
There are two types of people out there - simplistically. Those that are aware, and those that are not. How you want to label them is your business.
But you made some very specific statements that attributed the following qualities to the religious/spiritual (implying they are missing from the agnostic/atheist)...

MORE holistic....
DEEPER sense of experience...
MORE focused...

Now you're backtracking a bit and saying If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll

So do you now agree that a non-religious/non-spiritual person can experience life just as holistically, deeply and well focused as a religious/spiritual person?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66644 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never posited there were fairies, NOR a god in the way you are fighting against
And if there was, and someone believes that they saw it, who are we to doubt it?
Like my comment to FOR, I dont get why you keep fighting a straw battle.
The point of the quote was not in denying what other people think they see, but rather, it was to highlight that the garden can be enjoyed with or without the presence of fairies. The fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.

And I'm sure this goes without saying, but I do believe people THINK they see fairies. It's the actual fairies I don't believe in, nor do I need to in order to have a finer appreciation (experience) of the garden.

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