UPDATE: Hudsonville to keep "to serve...

UPDATE: Hudsonville to keep "to serve God" in city's mission st...

There are 330 comments on the WZZM Grand Rapids story from Feb 25, 2008, titled UPDATE: Hudsonville to keep "to serve God" in city's mission st.... In it, WZZM Grand Rapids reports that:

Hudsonville - After a week of deliberations, Hudsonville's mayor says the city will keep a reference of God in its mission statement.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at WZZM Grand Rapids.

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“I can't get behind that.”

Since: Mar 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#331 Mar 11, 2008
Collin K wrote:
I'm using the dictionary definition of bigoted - and it's accurate:

big·ot·ed /ˈbɪg&#6 01;tɪd/–adjective: utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

There's a difference between believing something to be morally wrong and not practicing or sanctioning it in your own life, and going out and using the government to force your prejudices on other people. That's what is happening with same-sex marriage. The fact that there are some a la carte phrases in the New Testament that can be used to single out homosexuals is irrelevant because this is not a theocracy, and Biblical law is unenforceable in the US. Further, passages of both the old and new testament condemn fornication equally with homosexuality - but there isn't nearly as much scrutiny or condemnation focused on fornicators as there is upon the gay/lesbian community.

The current wars we're in are most certainly not wars of last resort (one could even argue that the Iraq war is one of first resort).

As for the death penalty, given how utterly unequal and flawed our legal system is - we have no business sentencing people to death. Further, your case holds no water because it's cheaper to give someone life in prison than it is to put them to death (it also allows for the opportunity to correct a wrongful conviction). Moreover; didn't Jesus teach about the power and possibility of redemption?

“I can't get behind that.”

Since: Mar 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#332 Mar 11, 2008
Alfonce wrote:
Good news, the God hating, freedom hating libs lost this battle...for now.
they'll be back, its absolutely necessary for the libs to remove God from our society along with personal responsibility for the liberal agenda of socialism to go forward.
Can you kindly explain how forcing an entire community to officially sanction and promote one religion over all others is in keeping with "freedom?"

“Come, heed the wisdom”

Since: Sep 07

Grand Rapids, MI

#333 Mar 12, 2008
RollngGrnade wrote:
There's a difference between believing something to be morally wrong and not practicing or sanctioning it in your own life, and going out and using the government to force your prejudices on other people. That's what is happening with same-sex marriage. The fact that there are some a la carte phrases in the New Testament that can be used to single out homosexuals is irrelevant because this is not a theocracy, and Biblical law is unenforceable in the US. Further, passages of both the old and new testament condemn fornication equally with homosexuality - but there isn't nearly as much scrutiny or condemnation focused on fornicators as there is upon the gay/lesbian community.
The current wars we're in are most certainly not wars of last resort (one could even argue that the Iraq war is one of first resort).
As for the death penalty, given how utterly unequal and flawed our legal system is - we have no business sentencing people to death. Further, your case holds no water because it's cheaper to give someone life in prison than it is to put them to death (it also allows for the opportunity to correct a wrongful conviction). Moreover; didn't Jesus teach about the power and possibility of redemption?
Yes, both fornication and homosexuality are condemned. It's not illegal to have sex without being married, nor is it illegal to have homosexual sex. The problem here is that homosexuals want a legal recognition of their relationship. Personally I could care less, let them have it. But some people are offended. I also don't have a problem with same sex marriage not being legal since being married is not a right and since it's perfectly possible to live one's entire life without the legal acknowledgment of the government. Where it really counts is in your heart. If you are committed to another person then who cares who else recognizes it. I realize that there are some legal reasons to be married and those things should certainly be extended to same sex couples regardless of marriage status. Of course, that goes for heterosexual couples who dont want to get married too. In short, I think this is a very over blown issue on both sides...

As for the war, I don't think that I said that it was a war of last resort. I just said that sometimes war is necessary. Was this one? That's up for debate. All I can say is that we warned Saddam and he didn't listen and we made good on our threats. A country needs to stand by what it says even if it's difficult.

Yes, the justice system is not perfect but that's no reason to lock people away for life. It's expensive and ruins their life anyway. Bullets are cheaper. The only reason death row is more money than life in prison is that we've got too many lawyers and too many squeamish people. I don't think a lot of people should be put to death but if the case is very plain and the crime very severe then why not?

Redemption is, of course, existent and important but society only functions when people are held to personal accountability. Redemption does NOT preclude punishment! If I broke into your house, raped your wife, killed your children, burned your house down, ruined your credit, stole your identity, and gave you crabs then I should be made to pay the price for what I had done regardless of how sorry I am or whether I immediately go out and volunteer my time with inner city kids.

“I can't get behind that.”

Since: Mar 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#334 Mar 12, 2008
Collin K wrote:
Wrong. There are anti-cohabitation and anti-fornication laws still on the books in Michigan; they just currently go unenforced. Up until 2003, anti-sodomy laws (including laws only pertaining to sodomy between homosexuals) were also on the books and being enforced in many states until the Supreme Court struck them down. Many "Christians" are calling for the return of those laws.

Though it's less serious, Christians in West Michigan (and elsewhere) force their beliefs on everyone through a variety of ways - most notably the "Blue Laws" which are still on the books and active and which bar, for example, car car dealerships of a certain size from being open on Sunday - or which dictate to private businesses when they may (or may not) sell alcohol to private citizens.

What homosexuals want is equality. They only want legal recognition of their relationships because it's a right granted exclusively to heterosexuals. If it weren't, they would have nothing to say. You're also incorrect; marriage has been affirmed as a right in several cases (like Loving v. Virginia)- and it's a right unfairly conferred only upon heterosexuals. That violates the 14th Amendment.

Your understanding of the war is similarly incorrect: we warned Saddam, he complied, and yet we still kicked UN inspectors out and invaded anyway. Furthermore, we observed a hypocritical double-standard as our justification (IE that Iraq was in violation of UNSC 1441, a fact which is irrelevant given that many of our allies - like Israel - are in violation of multiple UNSCs).

As for capital punishment - I'll say this: I used to be an ardent supporter of it. Then I experienced the inequity of our criminal justice system firsthand. My experiences made the inequities of our system (and the necessity of a system of appeals and advocacy for the incarcerated) crystal clear to me. If someone who is white, comes from economic means, and has a decent understanding of the legal system can't get a fair shake in a court of law - there's no way someone who is poor and/or who is a minority can reasonably get justice. If statistics don't sway you (and they should, because they show how glaringly flawed our system is)- hopefully my personal experience might give you pause.

Nothing is ever "plain."

If you committed all of those hypothetical crimes, you're likely seriously mentally ill (and thusly not fully culpable for your actions) and in need of medical treatment in a mental health facility - not incarceration in a prison where your problems will be made worse. Some 30% of the US prison population is demonstrably mentally ill (and that's a conservative estimate).

Even if the moral argument of doing the right thing for the mentally ill doesn't work for you - perhaps you'll be swayed by the practical fact that other countries (which focus far more resources on treating mental illness as opposed to locking everyone up and throwing away the key) have far lower recidivism rates and far lower crime rates than we do (in addition to far lower incarceration rates). This Victorian ideology of crime and punishment that we have continues to fail us miserably.

“Any good mice lately?”

Since: Mar 08

Hairball Holler

#335 Mar 12, 2008
People should be less concerned about a silly statement and more concerned about whats in their hearts.

“I can't get behind that.”

Since: Mar 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#336 Mar 13, 2008
Miss Meow wrote:
People should be less concerned about a silly statement and more concerned about whats in their hearts.
I would be less concerned about "silly statements" if they didn't become pretexts for other, more serious, policies. Allowing "in god we trust" to be added to the currency in 1936 and "under god" to be inserted in the pledge in 1954 have led down a slippery slope to the point we're at now where the government is funding exclusionary and discriminatory religious charities that use the money to proselytize with.

“Any good mice lately?”

Since: Mar 08

Hairball Holler

#337 Mar 15, 2008
I actually do agree with you rolling. It makes me very wary that so many people will vote for someone based only on the fact the candidate states they are Christian. There should be a definite separation of church and state. I grew up in Jenison where I was a minority because I wasn't Dutch, or Christian Reformed. That whole community around there has a religious discrimination going on where if you don't believe exactly what they do you are treated much differently. The same kids I went to school with went to church twice a week, but were incredibly mean when not at church with their parents. The Christian community fighting to save icons such as a display of Christian references in Government (displaying the 10 commandments at city hall, city mission statements, or the printing of money, are looking outside of themselves for proof of their faith. Almost a form of idolatry. I don't need a statement, a carving in stone, or to read my cash to know where my heart is.

“I can't get behind that.”

Since: Mar 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#338 Mar 19, 2008
Miss Meow wrote:
Great points - and they're often underrepresented in the dialog about national policy. Many people don't think ahead to the idea that one Christian sect could end up oppressing other Christian sects - which is happening now (as in the case of Joseph Hanas here in Michigan, who is a Catholic forced to attend a Pentecostal rehabilitation program).
Kylyssa

Grand Rapids, MI

#339 Jun 14, 2008
Ann from Michigan said: "Oh and I am not making that up, he has said in other forums he was upset those claiming disability do not get the stimulus rebate, maybe if he didn't already have his hand out, he wouldn't expect more that he doesn't deserve"

Ann, were you aware that Disability isn't a handout? It's insurance we are forced to pay all of our working lives. Or do you think your medical and car insurance are also handouts if you have to use them?
DeMorgan

Holland, MI

#340 Jun 14, 2008
Good job hootervile, stand up to those libtards!
I may need to move over there, be with some real Americans.
In God we trust.

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