Female priests risk excommunication t...

Female priests risk excommunication to do what they believe is right

There are 61 comments on the St. Cloud Times story from Jun 16, 2013, titled Female priests risk excommunication to do what they believe is right. In it, St. Cloud Times reports that:

They risk being excommunicated by the Catholic Church but vow they won't be stopped.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at St. Cloud Times.

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Listen to the Word

Kingman, AZ

#1 Jun 16, 2013
Just because "they believe it right" does not make it right. Only the clear teaching of the Bible make something right or wrong. Paul says "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man." Regardless how one views the details, it is impossible to say that the apostle, speaking by the Spirit, was saying "God wants female clergy." If we suggest that "believing something right" makes something right, we are back to the God's complain in the book of Judges, "Everyone did that which is right in their own eyes." As we see in Judges, that leads to anarchy and ungodliness. Consider the reality for the unborn in the United States. If the mother wants the child, it is a human being worthy of pre-natal care and bringing punishment if someone injures or kills the mother and kills the unborn child in the process. However, if the mother doesn't want the child, it is not a child and a doctor can legally slice and dice it, burn it with caustic chemicals, inject it with legal drugs or whatever. Our society and its laws are getting closer to the days of Judges. So are many churches. As long as people think "because it believe it right" makes it right, we have spiritual anarchy -- and a decline of the Christian church. It is amazing that only Christians are giving up their heart and soul by giving up the Bible. Other religious groups (Mormons, Muslims, Hindu, etc) remain faithful to their scriptures and teachings and are thriving. Only Christians are giving up the God who speaks to us in his Word. Another sign of the end of the world -- the greatly falling away in the church.

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#2 Jun 16, 2013
The Roman Catholic Church does not ordain women into the priesthood, so these women are already fully aware of the risks they are taking. They are already going against the teachings of the Catholic Church; therefore, they already put themselves outside the Roman Catholic Church.
QUITTNER

Toronto, Canada

#3 Jun 16, 2013
8:07 pm, Sunday, June 16, 2013:
RE: Female priests risk excommunication to do what they believe is right
..... After Jesus was crucified many so-called "Christianities" were invented. They can, and do, teach whatever they like and change anything, and use any literature. But the only valid Christianity is the one by Jesus.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#4 Jun 17, 2013
QUITTNER wrote:
8:07 pm, Sunday, June 16, 2013:
RE: Female priests risk excommunication to do what they believe is right
..... After Jesus was crucified many so-called "Christianities" were invented. They can, and do, teach whatever they like and change anything, and use any literature. But the only valid Christianity is the one by Jesus.
So, now their "chrsitianity" is subject to your judgment?

Sheesh.

Since: Jun 13

Montrose, PA

#5 Jun 17, 2013
It doesn't matter who performs the ordination ceremony, a woman can never become a priest. Even if a validly consecrated (male) bishop performs the ordination it is still invali. In order for a sacrament to be valid there must be 1. proper matter. 2. proper form. 3. proper intent. A woman will never costitute proper matter, just as taking graham crackers and cool-aid and saying the words of consecration over them will never make them the Body and Blood of Christ. These people have no education in Catholic sacramental theology. They are stubbornly ingnorant and sinfully foolish.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#6 Jun 17, 2013
anglicanusepapa wrote:
It doesn't matter who performs the ordination ceremony, a woman can never become a priest. Even if a validly consecrated (male) bishop performs the ordination it is still invali. In order for a sacrament to be valid there must be 1. proper matter. 2. proper form. 3. proper intent.
...
These people have no education in Catholic sacramental theology. They are stubbornly ingnorant and sinfully foolish.
Dear AUP,

I am a duly ordained priest and disciple of Christ Jesus.

I respectfully disagree with your statement above. Although your sentiment and desire expressed above may be sincere, it is my opinion, and experience, that what you have written above ....
ain't necessarily so.

First of all, and there are many sources which can be referenced and found, independently on your own, the rituals and sacraments of each religious practice are specific to the Traditions of that religion and denomination.

In most Traditions that regard their ministry as priestly, the rituals have become fairly elaborate and are full of minor, detailed considerations that actually have very little to do with the actual purpose, per se.

Instead, ritual sacrament, such as the eucharist or baptism or marriage are largely ceremonial for the purpose of involving the participants and the onlookers in an experience that does three things. These are, primarily:

1. To engage the conscious and subconscious mind and the emotional body (medicine regards this body as mostly the electro-chemical or endocrine system and some parts of the exocrine system). That is, to engender and uplift a lasting, heightened state of personal awareness.

2. To bring these aspects of the individual Living Temple (each person) into a communal action in order to engage and compound the response in the ground of Being (the sacred space, in all dimensions). That is, to draw the Holy Spirit into a state of participation and presence.

3. To create a memorable impression that imprints a lasting signature on the souls of those present.

Every ritual does these things; some rituals more than others and in some individuals, more effectively than in others. Human Beings are creatures of habit. Repeated ritualistic behavior creates, within the individual, an habitual set of responses. I'm not saying we are all just examples of Pavlov's dog. But, maybe we aren't so far away from that idea as we might want to admit.

There are additional things that can be addded to a ritual for the purpose of eliciting a more focused platform of responsive networking. Such things as an aroma of clean meat being offered on a fire using certain spices and types of char or treated wood can be very effective in creating a desired mental acuity.

Today's sacramental ritual sequences often involve "bells and smells." So, we see the use of burning frankincense and myrhh along with breath-chanting and the playing of music. But, in fact, these uses are simple exaggerations that have been found to be effective, having originated out of repetitive practices that began very early in the traditions of human self-reflective pattern experiences.

For example, the Holy Eucharist, which Only the Priest is supposed to be able to conduct, is a complex repetitive ritual based upon a very simple instance. And yet, that very simple instance was also a celebration of a highly complex set of circumstances.

The Eucharist is supposed to bring to mind a whole slew of thoughts, experiences and emotions; not the least of which are the Passover Seder, which in itself is a ritual of remembrance, together with the Altar Sacrifice. Then, upon this foundation of thoughts, experiences and emotions (that are to be repeated regularly) we are supposed to remember the simple casual dinner over which Jesus presided, just prior to his betrayal and submission to crucifixion and death.

Yet, he only asks to be remembered.

Anybody can do it and everybody is invited to do it.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#7 Jun 17, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Dear AUP,
I am a duly ordained priest and disciple of Christ Jesus.
I respectfully disagree with your statement above. Although your sentiment and desire expressed above may be sincere, it is my opinion, and experience, that what you have written above ....
ain't necessarily so.
First of all, and there are many sources which can be referenced and found, independently on your own, the rituals and sacraments of each religious practice are specific to the Traditions of that religion and denomination.
In most Traditions that regard their ministry as priestly, the rituals have become fairly elaborate and are full of minor, detailed considerations that actually have very little to do with the actual purpose, per se.
Instead, ritual sacrament, such as the eucharist or baptism or marriage are largely ceremonial for the purpose of involving the participants and the onlookers in an experience that does three things. These are, primarily:
1. To engage the conscious and subconscious mind and the emotional body (medicine regards this body as mostly the electro-chemical or endocrine system and some parts of the exocrine system). That is, to engender and uplift a lasting, heightened state of personal awareness.
2. To bring these aspects of the individual Living Temple (each person) into a communal action in order to engage and compound the response in the ground of Being (the sacred space, in all dimensions). That is, to draw the Holy Spirit into a state of participation and presence.
3. To create a memorable impression that imprints a lasting signature on the souls of those present.
Every ritual does these things; some rituals more than others and in some individuals, more effectively than in others. Human Beings are creatures of habit. Repeated ritualistic behavior creates, within the individual, an habitual set of responses. I'm not saying we are all just examples of Pavlov's dog. But, maybe we aren't so far away from that idea as we might want to admit.
There are additional things that can be addded to a ritual for the purpose of eliciting a more focused platform of responsive networking. Such things as an aroma of clean meat being offered on a fire using certain spices and types of char or treated wood can be very effective in creating a desired mental acuity.
Today's sacramental ritual sequences often involve "bells and smells." So, we see the use of burning frankincense and myrhh along with breath-chanting and the playing of music. But, in fact, these uses are simple exaggerations that have been found to be effective, having originated out of repetitive practices that began very early in the traditions of human self-reflective pattern experiences.
For example, the Holy Eucharist, which Only the Priest is supposed to be able to conduct, is a complex repetitive ritual based upon a very simple instance. And yet, that very simple instance was also a celebration of a highly complex set of circumstances.
The Eucharist is supposed to bring to mind a whole slew of thoughts, experiences and emotions; not the least of which are the Passover Seder, which in itself is a ritual of remembrance, together with the Altar Sacrifice. Then, upon this foundation of thoughts, experiences and emotions (that are to be repeated regularly) we are supposed to remember the simple casual dinner over which Jesus presided, just prior to his betrayal and submission to crucifixion and death.
Yet, he only asks to be remembered.
Anybody can do it and everybody is invited to do it.
Rev. Ken
In your TEC experience, the non-ordained perform the rituals?

I.E. they lay people preside over their own baptisms, marriages, communion, etc. al?

Since: Jun 13

Montrose, PA

#8 Jun 17, 2013
rev. ken,

No matter how you rationalise it you are not a validly ordained priest unless you are man ordained in true apostolic succession in the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church.
You rev. ken are probably a pseudo-priest of the apostate episcopal church, which thank God I left long ago.
Valid ordination is based on God's divine revelation to His Holy Catholic Church (in which the Orthodox share) and not in man made sociological observations such as the ones you have made.
Why don't you concerne yourself with you own heretical beliefs and keep your personal opinions off a Roman Catholic Forum and let the True Church be what it is.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#9 Jun 17, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
In your TEC experience, the non-ordained perform the rituals?
I.E. they lay people preside over their own baptisms, marriages, communion, etc. al?
Well,.... let's put it this way.....

There was neither an Episcopal priest, male female or queer, nor was there a homosexual celibate Roman Catholic priest, pedophile or not, nor Coptic, nor Syriac, nor Russian Orthodox, nor Lutheran priest, crazy or sane ...

Nor was there a Presbyterian minister or Church of the Nazorene pastor or TV Evangelical preacher, man or wife,...

or Pope or Metropolitan bishop or tribal shaman or clan Father-of-the-Bride present ...
... when Adam and Eve became a mated pair.

But, the Elohim were present. And the marriage did and does occur. The Silver Cords are tied; growing together, united.

The rituals are an outward expression and an acknowledgment of an inward reality. The reality is not dependent on the ritual.

If you read the scripture of what Jesus said, taking your Roman Catholic polarized Foster Grants off for a moment, you will see and hear.

He answered, "Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said,'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."

The 'reason' is not the ritual.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#10 Jun 17, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Well,.... let's put it this way.....
There was neither an Episcopal priest, male female or queer, nor was there a homosexual celibate Roman Catholic priest, pedophile or not, nor Coptic, nor Syriac, nor Russian Orthodox, nor Lutheran priest, crazy or sane ...
Nor was there a Presbyterian minister or Church of the Nazorene pastor or TV Evangelical preacher, man or wife,...
or Pope or Metropolitan bishop or tribal shaman or clan Father-of-the-Bride present ...
... when Adam and Eve became a mated pair.
But, the Elohim were present. And the marriage did and does occur. The Silver Cords are tied; growing together, united.
The rituals are an outward expression and an acknowledgment of an inward reality. The reality is not dependent on the ritual.
If you read the scripture of what Jesus said, taking your Roman Catholic polarized Foster Grants off for a moment, you will see and hear.
He answered, "Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said,'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."
The 'reason' is not the ritual.
Rev. Ken
Well, today we DO have TEC and the Catholic Church.

So, again, does TEC negate the necessity of clergy for conferral of sacraments to their adherents?

All you're doing here is telling me the "reason" that Christian marriage is, by definition, between a man and a woman. Odd position for you to be affirming to me , given your track record here on the boards on the subject.

Since: Jun 13

Montrose, PA

#11 Jun 17, 2013
rev. ken,

I never said the ritual is the reason. You don't understand sacramental theology or divine revelation. Catholic ritual is sacred because it is developed through the leading of God (the Holy Spirit) not through anthropolgy like you seem to think. God is in charge not man.

You also don't seem to understand that Catholic theology teaches that the man and women being joined together in marriage are the ministers of the Sacrament of Matrimony.

Stop being a pseudo-intellectual and follow God and not man.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#12 Jun 17, 2013
anglicanusepapa wrote:
rev. ken,
I never said the ritual is the reason. You don't understand sacramental theology or divine revelation. Catholic ritual is sacred because it is developed through the leading of God (the Holy Spirit) not through anthropolgy like you seem to think. God is in charge not man.
You also don't seem to understand that Catholic theology teaches that the man and women being joined together in marriage are the ministers of the Sacrament of Matrimony.
Stop being a pseudo-intellectual and follow God and not man.
Well,.... LOL!!! That's funny!

In the previous post, you asserted that the only the man can become priest, to administer and conduct the sacerdotal, sacramental ritual.

Now, in the above post, you casually admit that there are exceptions to that rule and that such exceptions have always been the case.

But, then, that admission means that your first post was just full of Baloney!...

... which of course, it is. Full of Baloney.

If you left the Episcopal Church, a long time ago, as you said, then be satisfied with your new residence. You apparently didn't understand what for or why you were in this House before, and you still don't appear to understand. But, of course, that's OK, too.

Rev. Ken

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#13 Jun 17, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, today we DO have TEC and the Catholic Church.
So, again, does TEC negate the necessity of clergy for conferral of sacraments to their adherents?
All you're doing here is telling me the "reason" that Christian marriage is, by definition, between a man and a woman. Odd position for you to be affirming to me , given your track record here on the boards on the subject.
If you want to get married in the Episcopal Church, then you need to go to the Episcopal Church and get married. But, if you like, you can have the Episcopal priest be present, and, if he or she will agree, you can get married in front of the Justice of the Peace. Or not.

"Whenever two or three are gathered together in my name, there shall I be, also."

Married in the Sight of God.

What was the name of the Roman Catholic priest who was present when Adam and Eve got married? It was a while back and, pardon me, I can't remember what the guy said his name was.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#14 Jun 17, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
If you want to get married in the Episcopal Church, then you need to go to the Episcopal Church and get married. But, if you like, you can have the Episcopal priest be present, and, if he or she will agree, you can get married in front of the Justice of the Peace. Or not.
"Whenever two or three are gathered together in my name, there shall I be, also."
Married in the Sight of God.
What was the name of the Roman Catholic priest who was present when Adam and Eve got married? It was a while back and, pardon me, I can't remember what the guy said his name was.
Rev. Ken
So, despite your windy admonition in Post #6, So, TEC does, in fact, require that a cleric administer sacramental rites within TEC?

Again, what about Adam and Eve other than it affirms Christian belief in the nature of marriage to be one man and one woman?
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#15 Jun 17, 2013
Listen to the Word wrote:
Just because "they believe it right" does not make it right. Only the clear teaching of the Bible make something right or wrong. Paul says "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man." Regardless how one views the details, it is impossible to say that the apostle, speaking by the Spirit, was saying "God wants female clergy." If we suggest that "believing something right" makes something right, we are back to the God's complain in the book of Judges, "Everyone did that which is right in their own eyes." As we see in Judges, that leads to anarchy and ungodliness. Consider the reality for the unborn in the United States. If the mother wants the child, it is a human being worthy of pre-natal care and bringing punishment if someone injures or kills the mother and kills the unborn child in the process. However, if the mother doesn't want the child, it is not a child and a doctor can legally slice and dice it, burn it with caustic chemicals, inject it with legal drugs or whatever. Our society and its laws are getting closer to the days of Judges. So are many churches. As long as people think "because it believe it right" makes it right, we have spiritual anarchy -- and a decline of the Christian church. It is amazing that only Christians are giving up their heart and soul by giving up the Bible. Other religious groups (Mormons, Muslims, Hindu, etc) remain faithful to their scriptures and teachings and are thriving. Only Christians are giving up the God who speaks to us in his Word. Another sign of the end of the world -- the greatly falling away in the church.
Listen to the word says.......I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man."

Michael says......Its not 0028 AD anymore. Comments like yours would never pass the sniff test today.

90 years ago in america women weren't even allowed to vote. Its time to put the old fable stories from the bible to rest as fiction reading only.

I guess by chance you were one of the fortunate ones to be born into a christian family not to become what you decided but what your parents wanted you to become.........just like them! I am sure the over 1 Billion Muslims/Jews etc. also claim they too have the right belief.

See how organized religion divides us.

.......what God would intend that to happen??? HUH!
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#16 Jun 17, 2013
Its obvious the roman catholic church in the western world is on the eve of collapse. Western europe catholics have all but given up on weekly mass attendance. Today around the world in just the past few years roman catholic priests have formed UNIONS or ASSOCIATIONS wanting a stronger voice in the church,( google AUSCP) thousands of roman catholic priests/bishops have buggered our children while those that didn't looked the other way committing even graver sins themselves.

The most holiest of catholic men and women are not answering the calling to the priest/sisterhood like they did in the past.

1965 there were 58,000 priests in america and 180,000 nuns. Today less than 38,000 priests most new ones are imported from other countries and less than 57,000 nuns in america.

20 years from now the roman catholic church in the western world will be a much much smaller organization as each future generation becomes less religiously observant.

The catholic church TODAY should welcome women to be equal to men. Thats how democracys work today.

Nothing good comes from divisivness. I am sure no loving God would intend women to be less worthy than men..........except the catholic church whose "old boy" attitutde is sinking the church as we know it.
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

#17 Jun 17, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
So, despite your windy admonition in Post #6, So, TEC does, in fact, require that a cleric administer sacramental rites within TEC?
Again, what about Adam and Eve other than it affirms Christian belief in the nature of marriage to be one man and one woman?
Come on Dan. Adam and Eve is just a fictional story. It teaches you that God in the OT was a punishing God, whereas today in the NT God morphed into an all loving forgiving God, the way the writers of the NT intended their agenda to be followed.

Example, if we believe in repentance and forgivness, why wouldn't Adam and Eve have been given a second chance?

Its all baloney Dan.(lol)

Since: Jun 13

Montrose, PA

#18 Jun 17, 2013
rev. ken does not understand Catholic theology and should keep his mouth shut on a Roman Catholic Forum. I did not contradict myself, I said ritual develops in a sacred way through the leading of the Holy Spirit. If you, rev. ken, can't understand the difference between that and your anthropological/sociologil argument then you are being purposefully obtuse.

I am satisfied with my new residence, but obviously you are not satisfied with yours or you would Roman Catholic Forums and keep your ignorance confined to some equally ignorant episcopalian forum.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#19 Jun 17, 2013
Michael wrote:
Its obvious the roman catholic church in the western world is on the eve of collapse. Western europe catholics have all but given up on weekly mass attendance. Today around the world in just the past few years roman catholic priests have formed UNIONS or ASSOCIATIONS wanting a stronger voice in the church,( google AUSCP) thousands of roman catholic priests/bishops have buggered our children while those that didn't looked the other way committing even graver sins themselves.
The most holiest of catholic men and women are not answering the calling to the priest/sisterhood like they did in the past.
1965 there were 58,000 priests in america and 180,000 nuns. Today less than 38,000 priests most new ones are imported from other countries and less than 57,000 nuns in america.
20 years from now the roman catholic church in the western world will be a much much smaller organization as each future generation becomes less religiously observant.
The catholic church TODAY should welcome women to be equal to men. Thats how democracys work today.
Nothing good comes from divisivness. I am sure no loving God would intend women to be less worthy than men..........except the catholic church whose "old boy" attitutde is sinking the church as we know it.
Ah, the Oracle of Ontario makes his appearance, telling us what he's sure God would and wouldn't want.

Always good to have comic relief in these proceedings.

Since: Jun 13

Montrose, PA

#20 Jun 17, 2013
Michael wrote:
Its obvious the roman catholic church in the western world is on the eve of collapse. Western europe catholics have all but given up on weekly mass attendance. Today around the world in just the past few years roman catholic priests have formed UNIONS or ASSOCIATIONS wanting a stronger voice in the church,( google AUSCP) thousands of roman catholic priests/bishops have buggered our children while those that didn't looked the other way committing even graver sins themselves.
The most holiest of catholic men and women are not answering the calling to the priest/sisterhood like they did in the past.
1965 there were 58,000 priests in america and 180,000 nuns. Today less than 38,000 priests most new ones are imported from other countries and less than 57,000 nuns in america.
20 years from now the roman catholic church in the western world will be a much much smaller organization as each future generation becomes less religiously observant.
The catholic church TODAY should welcome women to be equal to men. Thats how democracys work today.
Nothing good comes from divisivness. I am sure no loving God would intend women to be less worthy than men..........except the catholic church whose "old boy" attitutde is sinking the church as we know it.
Thanks be to God the Holy Catholi Church is not a democracy. As Plato said democracy is only one step above anarchy and then follows despotism.

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