Suburban rally seeks to derail train plan

[No Liberal]

Oh by the way, if I read the article correctly, those containers are going to Memphis via CN regardless.

[Heartland Fast Frt Sys]

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/art...

[Drifter]

From a basic look at the main points:
Support of CN Deal:
1. Improved transportation infrastructure.
2. Quicker ship times rail coming through Chicago
3. Let businesses do what they need to on there own property without excessive external interference.
4. Added rail capability will likely create US jobs to handle freight as it increases.
5. Safer transportation of Hazmat through the metropolitan area.

Opposition
1. Lower property values
2. Inconvenience/longer travel time caused by crossings.
3. Possible train derailments
4. Taxpayers will foot the bill of most crossing improvements should they be deemed necessary.

Unless I am missing something, it seems like the rail deal benefits outweigh the risks.

[Steal Rails]

This ought to be interesting...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-...

Hopefully the report will be available via STB's site.

[Steal Rails]

BTW, I was looking at the STB site, and the PMOU that was hailed regarding Gary Airport and the current EJ&E lines is confidential. The lawyer for CN notified the STB about the memo, but wouldn't provide a copy citing confidentiality.

There's a good way to support your case! Yes, I know before people jump on this that if it was filed it would be open to public review, but still, how many times can you hear, "Trust us?"

[No Liberal]

Steal Rails wrote:

This ought to be interesting...
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-...
Hopefully the report will be available via STB's site.

Obama's been a BIG help, hasn't he? Ya think he even knows what color his office is? That assumes he's actually been there of course.
Durbin... Bean... I keep telling you that they put you in the position you're in now but no one wants to acknowledge that and instead you think they're on your side. Sure... I doubt Bean could spell "train" if you spotted her the t-r-a. And too many people keep talking about CREATE which specifically addresses the increased rail AND truck traffic and so far no one has come up with funds for it either.

Sorry.. woke up and there was pi$$ in my Wheaties. Hate when that happens.

CN thought of something no other RR did so far as I can tell. Either that or the other RR's saw no real benefit, which could be the case, of course. So far, absolutely the very best suggestion I have seen is having the heads of FedEx, UPS, and others come in and analyze the efficiency of how the RR's move freight. Ya know, the specific definition of insanity is doing something over and over the same way and expecting different results, and the RR's have been doing that forever.

From what I can tell so far, and I will read more today, there is a $$$ point where this doesn't work for the CN and no one knows what it is. You all need to get them to spend as much of it as you can to protect you as much as possible.

Just my opinion.... still.

[midwest rail]

No Liberal wrote:

<quoted text>
Obama's been a BIG help, hasn't he? Ya think he even knows what color his office is? That assumes he's actually been there of course.
Durbin... Bean... I keep telling you that they put you in the position you're in now but no one wants to acknowledge that and instead you think they're on your side. Sure... I doubt Bean could spell "train" if you spotted her the t-r-a. And too many people keep talking about CREATE which specifically addresses the increased rail AND truck traffic and so far no one has come up with funds for it either.
Sorry.. woke up and there was pi$$ in my Wheaties. Hate when that happens.
CN thought of something no other RR did so far as I can tell. Either that or the other RR's saw no real benefit, which could be the case, of course. So far, absolutely the very best suggestion I have seen is having the heads of FedEx, UPS, and others come in and analyze the efficiency of how the RR's move freight. Ya know, the specific definition of insanity is doing something over and over the same way and expecting different results, and the RR's have been doing that forever.
From what I can tell so far, and I will read more today, there is a $$$ point where this doesn't work for the CN and no one knows what it is. You all need to get them to spend as much of it as you can to protect you as much as possible.
Just my opinion.... still.

First the heads of FedEx, etc would need to be completely familiar with FRA regulations, the individual rules the various RR's operate under and THEN make their recommendations - somehow, i don't see that happening.

[No LIberal]

Of course not. But it was a GREAT idea I thought.

[Steal Rails]

midwest rail wrote:

<quoted text>
First the heads of FedEx, etc would need to be completely familiar with FRA regulations, the individual rules the various RR's operate under and THEN make their recommendations - somehow, i don't see that happening.

That's the freaking point of having people knowledgeable from the outside have a FREAKING look! Have people who understand logistics analyze the situation WITHOUT the FREAKING blinders of the FRA!

I posted this earlier, if you involve people too close to the situation, the vision narrows as to the solution to the point that there will be NO SOLUTION! This is what a SWOT analysis is all about, taking out the subjectivity and using objectivity to help Chicago through what's forecasted to be freight gridlock by 2030.

Don't hand us this FRA crap! Fock what has happened in the past, this is now, dammit. Forget the bureaucracy that has let us to this point.

One out of four (25%) workers in The United States works for the government (Federal, State, County, City, Township, etc.). What do they do, the twenty-five percent? They justify their freaking jobs by creating this huge mess that even they can't explain.

Sorry, but I had **** in my Cheerios this morning.

[midwest rail]

Steal Rails wrote:

<quoted text>
That's the freaking point of having people knowledgeable from the outside have a FREAKING look! Have people who understand logistics analyze the situation WITHOUT the FREAKING blinders of the FRA!
I posted this earlier, if you involve people too close to the situation, the vision narrows as to the solution to the point that there will be NO SOLUTION! This is what a SWOT analysis is all about, taking out the subjectivity and using objectivity to help Chicago through what's forecasted to be freight gridlock by 2030.
Don't hand us this FRA crap! Fock what has happened in the past, this is now, dammit. Forget the bureaucracy that has let us to this point.
One out of four (25%) workers in The United States works for the government (Federal, State, County, City, Township, etc.). What do they do, the twenty-five percent? They justify their freaking jobs by creating this huge mess that even they can't explain.
Sorry, but I had ***** in my Cheerios this morning.

Easy, SR - my only point was that it will NEVER happen - and you CAN'T forget the FRA as long as they exist - or do you also have a plan in place to make them go away ? I'm all in favor if you do. Would sure make my job a lot easier.

[Steal Rails]

midwest rail wrote:

<quoted text>
Easy, SR - my only point was that it will NEVER happen - and you CAN'T forget the FRA as long as they exist - or do you also have a plan in place to make them go away ? I'm all in favor if you do. Would sure make my job a lot easier.

Didn't mean to rail on you. I'm just sick and tired of the way this country gets in its own way through bureaucracy that has taken more than a century to form.

The kicker was today's Tribune Op/Ed pages where Todd Stroger was quoted as saying, "I think I'm doing a damn good job." At what???? The man is almost universally despised with the exception of his relatives, but in his mind, he's carrying on tradition that should be admired - adding jobs with no benefit to taxpayers.

[No Liberal]

Steal Rails wrote:

<quoted text>
Didn't mean to rail on you. I'm just sick and tired of the way this country gets in its own way through bureaucracy that has taken more than a century to form.
The kicker was today's Tribune Op/Ed pages where Todd Stroger was quoted as saying, "I think I'm doing a damn good job." At what???? The man is almost universally despised with the exception of his relatives, but in his mind, he's carrying on tradition that should be admired - adding jobs with no benefit to taxpayers.

Wow.... we agree on several things. I'm starting to get scared now. LOL Admit it... you want to tie that buffoon to those tracks and hope the CN gets to run its trains over him, don't you? LOL

Have you ever in all your life seen someone so totally incompetent? And everyone who voted for this jerk should be SO proud.

[Steal Rails]

No Liberal wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow.... we agree on several things. I'm starting to get scared now. LOL Admit it... you want to tie that buffoon to those tracks and hope the CN gets to run its trains over him, don't you? LOL
Have you ever in all your life seen someone so totally incompetent? And everyone who voted for this jerk should be SO proud.

That thought never entered my mind simply because the Chicago City Council would only replace his vacancy with someone else supporting patronage jobs.

It's people in suburban Crook County that have to take the blame. Claypool lost in the primary to a stroke disabled father of Toddly by a miniscule margin. Were that not the case, Claypool would surely have won against Tony P., and I'm writing this as a life long Republican. I believe Claypool would work to eliminate waste.

Chicago, as I've mentioned before, should be cast off by the good citizens of Cook County so that they become their own county. The suburbs are paying too much, IMO for services that just do not benefit our communities via sales tax and property tax.

[No Liberal]

Agree with you 100% on your comments. Almost makes you think they kept poor John alive by machine so he and Todd could "do their thing". If it wasn't Chicago, it would be so totally cruel and unbelievable....

[Steal Rails]

No Liberal wrote:

Agree with you 100% on your comments. Almost makes you think they kept poor John alive by machine so he and Todd could "do their thing". If it wasn't Chicago, it would be so totally cruel and unbelievable....

This is really OT, but I have to tell you McCain will not get my vote if he continues the course he's on. I read 3-5 papers daily because I like to be informed, and all I hear McCain doing is telling people why Obama is wrong on everything.

I even went to McCain's web site and there on the main page was, "Why Barack Obama is Wrong on Iraq." Then I went to Obama's web site, and there was nothing but information on where he stands on issues.

When you get to a certain age, you start to wonder how many years you might have left, and a four year term of someone saying, "The Democratic fun Congress won't let me get anything done even though I know I'm right," doesn't thrill me. For a guy who spent five years in the Hanoi Hilton, the guy is spending too much time bitching, and not enough time looking like someone who can lead.

Note, however, I didn't say I'd vote Obama. There's a lot of time left, and running mates and platforms from the conventions will merit consideration. However the sight of 200,000 people in Berlin versus a guy bitching and moaning at a table in a German restaurant in Ohio the other day doesn't really play well.

[railham]

Steal Rails wrote:

<quoted text>
This is really OT, but I have to tell you McCain will not get my vote if he continues the course he's on. I read 3-5 papers daily because I like to be informed, and all I hear McCain doing is telling people why Obama is wrong on everything.
I even went to McCain's web site and there on the main page was, "Why Barack Obama is Wrong on Iraq." Then I went to Obama's web site, and there was nothing but information on where he stands on issues.
When you get to a certain age, you start to wonder how many years you might have left, and a four year term of someone saying, "The Democratic fun Congress won't let me get anything done even though I know I'm right," doesn't thrill me. For a guy who spent five years in the Hanoi Hilton, the guy is spending too much time bitching, and not enough time looking like someone who can lead.
Note, however, I didn't say I'd vote Obama. There's a lot of time left, and running mates and platforms from the conventions will merit consideration. However the sight of 200,000 people in Berlin versus a guy bitching and moaning at a table in a German restaurant in Ohio the other day doesn't really play well.

Wow...I actually agree with you Steal Rail. McCain lost me when he allowed himself to be butchered politically by Bush, Rove and company in 2000 and went crawling back with his tail between his legs for more. I also am not a big Obama fan, and still haven't seen enough substance to convince me of his leadership abilities, but his trip to Europe certainly did illustrate his potential as a healer after the past 8 years of failed leadership.
To bring this discussion a little more in line with the topic, I assume that you have read the STB report...I would be interested to hear your thoughts and where you believe this is headed.

[JBChitown]

railham wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow...I actually agree with you Steal Rail. McCain lost me when he allowed himself to be butchered politically by Bush, Rove and company in 2000 and went crawling back with his tail between his legs for more. I also am not a big Obama fan, and still haven't seen enough substance to convince me of his leadership abilities, but his trip to Europe certainly did illustrate his potential as a healer after the past 8 years of failed leadership.
To bring this discussion a little more in line with the topic, I assume that you have read the STB report...I would be interested to hear your thoughts and where you believe this is headed.

Something we can all agree on...this is progress:)

[Steal Rails]

railham wrote:

<quoted text>
To bring this discussion a little more in line with the topic, I assume that you have read the STB report...I would be interested to hear your thoughts and where you believe this is headed.

As you might suspect, I'm disappointed with the report. I think they went very easy on CN,

I do have to give credit to some communities like Barrington who jumped on this immediately after the proposed sale was announced last Fall. It would seem that the thrashing for being NIMBY's was worth it, because judging from the map on the cover of the Tribune yesterday, there are towns that will think they got screwed. Yet they only started their campaigns a couple of months ago, and I think that really hurt them a lot.

METRA has yet to comment on this, so that should be an interesting read. Not sure if AMTRAK has weighed in either.

Here are some interesting tidbits I found:

*"Applicants shall operate the key interlockings at West Chicago and Barrington, Illinois, according to the current agreements under which EJ&E operates. Those agreements require EJ&E to give priority to passenger trains over either UP or EJ&E freight trains."

*In addition, SEA believes that mitigation is warranted to retain the established Quiet Zone in Barrington, Illinois as a Quiet Zone should the Proposed Action be approved and implemented. As mitigation, SEA
recommends the following condition:
*Applicants shall fund the improvements necessary to allow Barrington to maintain its Quiet Zone designation should the addition of CN train traffic cause it to fall out of compliance with FRA regulations. Applicants shall work with the Village of Barrington to determine which improvements would be necessary for the Quiet Zone to maintain FRA compliance.

That one alone could add up to quite a chunk of change, and it's not a 5% share, it's 100%.

I'm pleased, however, that the STB did not speed things up as CN requested/demanded. The next sixty days should be interesting. I think the STB will observe how CN negotiates/behaves with their prospective neighbors, and if it's not a good result, who knows. I also wouldn't be surprised to see at least ten (10) crossing improvements added to the list before it's finalized.

[Steal Rails]

BTW, I noticed that the map illustration on the front page of yesterday's Tribune shows significantly fewer than 60 communities that will experience less freight traffic as a result of the sale. This is most likely due to the STB's request that CN provide a FIVE (5) year projection of freight traffic as opposed to the original THREE (3) year projection they initially supplied.

Boye are the people in Buffalo Grove going to be angry when they find out.

[railham]

Steal Rails wrote:

<quoted text>
As you might suspect, I'm disappointed with the report. I think they went very easy on CN,
I do have to give credit to some communities like Barrington who jumped on this immediately after the proposed sale was announced last Fall. It would seem that the thrashing for being NIMBY's was worth it, because judging from the map on the cover of the Tribune yesterday, there are towns that will think they got screwed. Yet they only started their campaigns a couple of months ago, and I think that really hurt them a lot.
METRA has yet to comment on this, so that should be an interesting read. Not sure if AMTRAK has weighed in either.
Here are some interesting tidbits I found:
*"Applicants shall operate the key interlockings at West Chicago and Barrington, Illinois, according to the current agreements under which EJ&E operates. Those agreements require EJ&E to give priority to passenger trains over either UP or EJ&E freight trains."
*In addition, SEA believes that mitigation is warranted to retain the established Quiet Zone in Barrington, Illinois as a Quiet Zone should the Proposed Action be approved and implemented. As mitigation, SEA
recommends the following condition:
*Applicants shall fund the improvements necessary to allow Barrington to maintain its Quiet Zone designation should the addition of CN train traffic cause it to fall out of compliance with FRA regulations. Applicants shall work with the Village of Barrington to determine which improvements would be necessary for the Quiet Zone to maintain FRA compliance.
That one alone could add up to quite a chunk of change, and it's not a 5% share, it's 100%.
I'm pleased, however, that the STB did not speed things up as CN requested/demanded. The next sixty days should be interesting. I think the STB will observe how CN negotiates/behaves with their prospective neighbors, and if it's not a good result, who knows. I also wouldn't be surprised to see at least ten (10) crossing improvements added to the list before it's finalized.

Interesting comments SR. I see the section on interlocking as a reaffirmation of the current policy in place. passenger preference is common at most railroad interlockings around the country, so this is to be expected. Unfortunately in real life, this doesn't always work out as well as it is intended due to unforeseeable delays in freight train operation such as pull aparts and train line or signal problems.
The mitigation was expected for several of the crossings in the area and is the reason that the railroad has offered to set aside 40M for possible improvements. Note that the report does NOT state that there should be grade separations constructed to enable the railroad to comply. This compliance could be in the form of the elimination of any jointed rail in the area, or with the installation of switches with a longer radius to damper flange squeal. Most of these improvements will be included the capital improvement budget (100M) for upgrading the EJ&E, so there will be no conflict there. So you see, there are many ways to comply with the Quiet Zone rules and most do not involve grade seperation which is historically a state/and or Federal government responsibility.
The report states only that the carrier provide proper funding for these improvements. As the established funding for these type of projects is 5-10%, this would be covered under the carriers goodwill gesture of 40M.
Negotiation must work both ways in a case like this. The STB will be watching the behavior of the communities as well as the railroad as they come to an eventual agreement on this project. I think in the end, that area citizens won't realize that the increased train traffic is there, other than being stopped occasionally at a grade crossing for a few moments, it will be largely invisible