Build Jail vs. Ship Them Out

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Little Falls, NY

#1 Apr 26, 2013
Here's a thought that goes much deeper than any previous ones. I'm serious about it too, it's not a joke or sarcasm... If it costs roughly $2 million a year to house the inmates somewhere else, why don't we just do that? The cost of constructing a new jail was estimated at $33 million a few years ago. As we all know, that means it will really cost closer to $40 million. After all the tests, analysis, and designs are completed, that adds another 2 or 3 million dollars to the pot. Then you have to acquire the land, build the infrastructure to enable the jail to be built, or pay the village of herkimer for use of its water and sewer system for a lump sum of almost 1 million dollars plus whatever they would agree to annually. That makes almost $45 million dollars just to have the jail completed. Then you need to add the ANNUAL cost of additional payroll (with benefits of course), general maintenance, repairs, food, CABLE BILL, and all the other essentials inmates supposedly need to survive, and you are talking at least another million dollar a year to keep it running. At the end of 20 years we will have paid a total of close to 70 million dollars, maybe even more, and that is without giving anyone a raise for 20 years and without considering costs rising. If we ship the inmates out, then in the same 20 years we will have paid $40 million assuming also that costs stay the same. If we count on the cost of shipping inmates out rising, then we have to count on the yearly rising costs of keeping our own jail too. So any change to both pretty much evens out the difference in the end. Don't forget that after 20 years the jail will also need a new roof, new pavement, several new analysis from LaBella Associates, new equipment, new furnishings, etc. If the county makes their own treatment plant then add those repairs/replacement costs to the pot as well. Add that to the original cost of the jail, and you will see that if we build a jail it will take roughly 50 years to see a return on our investment. After that, the jail will be obsolete anyway and a new one will likely have to be built. We will never be ahead. Ship out the inmates. It will be cheaper, we won't have the hassle, and once prisoners are released at least they won't be released in Herkimer where they see how cheap it is to live here in comparison with where they came from, and end up staying and eating off of our welfare and medicaid system. The jail is a burden, the inmates are a burden, and released criminals are a burden when they stay. Even if they find jobs in the area, with a criminal record whatever job they are able to get will not support them or their family. They either continue their life of crime or we pay for them through social services. Get rid of them, we don't need them. Get rid of the jail. It's not only cheaper to ship them out, we're also better off not having them around. The only good a jail would do is to give jobs and benefits to a few local people. Jobs and benefits for which the county will have to pay for, funds which could be used for other purposes, or left off the budget altogether. The media should investigate exactly who would profit from building a jail (such as LaBella Associates, and some legislators who get political contributions from LaBella Associates -- copy and paste the 2010 OD article
http://www.uticaod.com/news/x932342307/Jail-c...
and other people, possibly friends or acquaintances of the legislators pushing for a jail who may profit from this as well). I’m not accusing anyone, just saying it should be looked at to make sure… Do a story on that, it may be interesting. Maybe a jail does need to be built, but it's a waste of money. If you are going to waste it, then at least waste it by shipping them out and not worrying about it. In the end it's cheaper anyway.
Julia s Child

Little Falls, NY

#2 Apr 26, 2013
question wrote:
Here's a thought that goes much deeper than any previous ones. I'm serious about it too, it's not a joke or sarcasm... If it costs roughly $2 million a year to house the inmates somewhere else, why don't we just do that? The cost of constructing a new jail was estimated at $33 million a few years ago. As we all know, that means it will really cost closer to $40 million. After all the tests, analysis, and designs are completed, that adds another 2 or 3 million dollars to the pot. Then you have to acquire the land, build the infrastructure to enable the jail to be built, or pay the village of herkimer for use of its water and sewer system for a lump sum of almost 1 million dollars plus whatever they would agree to annually. That makes almost $45 million dollars just to have the jail completed. Then you need to add the ANNUAL cost of additional payroll (with benefits of course), general maintenance, repairs, food, CABLE BILL, and all the other essentials inmates supposedly need to survive, and you are talking at least another million dollar a year to keep it running. At the end of 20 years we will have paid a total of close to 70 million dollars, maybe even more, and that is without giving anyone a raise for 20 years and without considering costs rising. If we ship the inmates out, then in the same 20 years we will have paid $40 million assuming also that costs stay the same. If we count on the cost of shipping inmates out rising, then we have to count on the yearly rising costs of keeping our own jail too. So any change to both pretty much evens out the difference in the end. Don't forget that after 20 years the jail will also need a new roof, new pavement, several new analysis from LaBella Associates, new equipment, new furnishings, etc. If the county makes their own treatment plant then add those repairs/replacement costs to the pot as well. Add that to the original cost of the jail, and you will see that if we build a jail it will take ..etc etc..........then at least waste it by shipping them out and not worrying about it. In the end it's cheaper anyway.
How long did your rationale take to come to fruition? I'm not criticizing it, just curious.
How do you feel after making your rationale public? And...are you hopeful you'll get positive, or at very least, non-inflammatory responses? Hope so! Thanks for the thoughtful rhetoric.
fkcough

Little Falls, NY

#3 Apr 26, 2013
A conservative est. of 33 million goes to 70 million in two paragraphs? Amazing!!!

Isn't the idea that surrounding counties pay us million's a year to house their trash? And isn't the idea we save money by building and not shipping?

hmm

Little Falls, NY

#4 Apr 26, 2013
I agree that after taking all related expenses into account the plan does not make sense. Hopefully the state won't force us to build. But I suppose if spending tens of millions of dollars so you can whore yourself out for money by taking in other areas' unwanted trash is a good idea to you then enjoy. I'd rather have my trash taken somewhere where I don't have to deal with it. Then we also won't have to deal with the newly recycled trash blowing around our community (when they are released).
herkimer homeowner

New York, NY

#5 Apr 26, 2013
question wrote:
Here's a thought that goes much deeper than any previous ones. I'm serious about it too, it's not a joke or sarcasm... If it costs roughly $2 million a year to house the inmates somewhere else, why don't we just do that? The cost of constructing a new jail was estimated at $33 million a few years ago. As we all know, that means it will really cost closer to $40 million. After all the tests, analysis, and designs are completed, that adds another 2 or 3 million dollars to the pot. Then you have to acquire the land, build the infrastructure to enable the jail to be built, or pay the village of herkimer for use of its water and sewer system for a lump sum of almost 1 million dollars plus whatever they would agree to annually. That makes almost $45 million dollars just to have the jail completed. Then you need to add the ANNUAL cost of additional payroll (with benefits of course), general maintenance, repairs, food, CABLE BILL, and all the other essentials inmates supposedly need to survive, and you are talking at least another million dollar a year to keep it running. At the end of 20 years we will have paid a total of close to 70 million dollars, maybe even more, and that is without giving anyone a raise for 20 years and without considering costs rising. If we ship the inmates out, then in the same 20 years we will have paid $40 million assuming also that costs stay the same. If we count on the cost of shipping inmates out rising, then we have to count on the yearly rising costs of keeping our own jail too. So any change to both pretty much evens out the difference in the end. Don't forget that after 20 years the jail will also need a new roof, new pavement, several new analysis from LaBella Associates, new equipment, new furnishings, etc. If the county makes their own treatment plant then add those repairs/replacement costs to the pot as well. Add that to the original cost of the jail, and you will see that if we build a jail it will take roughly 50 years to see a return on our investment. After that, the jail will be obsolete anyway and a new one will likely have to be built. We will never be ahead. Ship out the inmates. It will be cheaper, we won't have the hassle, and once prisoners are released at least they won't be released in Herkimer where they see how cheap it is to live here in comparison with where they came from, and end up staying and eating off of our welfare and medicaid system. The jail is a burden, the inmates are a burden, and released criminals are a burden when they stay. Even if they find jobs in the area, with a criminal record whatever job they are able to get will not support them or their family. They either continue their life of crime or we pay for them through social services. Get rid of them, we don't need them. The media should investigate exactly who would profit from building a jail (such as LaBella Associates, and some legislators who get political contributions from LaBella Associates -- copy and paste the 2010 OD article
http://www.uticaod.com/news/x932342307/Jail-c...
and other people, possibly friends or acquaintances of the legislators pushing for a jail who may profit from this as well). I’m not accusing anyone, just saying it should be looked at to make sure… Do a story on that, it may be interesting. Maybe a jail does need to be built, but it's a waste of money. If you are going to waste it, then at least waste it by shipping them out and not worrying about it. In the end it's cheaper anyway.
Acquaint yourself with the "Enter" key, numbnuts, and break this up into shorter paragraphs. I for one am not going to read your cinder block of a screed.
right

Little Falls, NY

#6 Apr 26, 2013
hmm wrote:
I agree that after taking all related expenses into account the plan does not make sense. Hopefully the state won't force us to build. But I suppose if spending tens of millions of dollars so you can whore yourself out for money by taking in other areas' unwanted trash is a good idea to you then enjoy. I'd rather have my trash taken somewhere where I don't have to deal with it. Then we also won't have to deal with the newly recycled trash blowing around our community (when they are released).
Too fkin late for that. We are the county seat and the welfare’s love us. Also the college has low academic standards not to mention they recruit trash for their teams. It seems you haven't drivin up Main St. lately.

Thinking like yours has the village fked. Right, Hartman???
Added

Herkimer, NY

#7 Apr 26, 2013
If there was any money to made taking in inmates from other counties, Oneida Co wouldn't have an entire wing unoccupied. This whole project is just plain stupidity.......... All these counties putting in "extra" beds to rent out - well hello - now there are too many beds and the county taxpayers are stuck holding the bill.......... I can't stand it......
Spend wisely

New York, NY

#8 Apr 26, 2013
Would much rather support a Sheriff's road patrol that could help assist the prevention of crime than spending 35 million plus to house criminals once they commit illegalities.
A Sheriffs patrol could also help struggling villages and Towns by supplementing public safety protection.
Give me a break

United States

#9 Apr 26, 2013
Spend wisely wrote:
Would much rather support a Sheriff's road patrol that could help assist the prevention of crime than spending 35 million plus to house criminals once they commit illegalities.
A Sheriffs patrol could also help struggling villages and Towns by supplementing public safety protection.
Come on! Farber can barely handle the responsibilities of his office as it is. Adding road patrol??
fact is

Herkimer, NY

#10 Apr 26, 2013
fkcough wrote:
Isn't the idea that surrounding counties pay us million's a year to house their trash? And isn't the idea we save money by building and not shipping?
that is the pipedream the Herkimer Good Ole Boys' club is trying to sell the taxpayers on. What they leave out is the surrounding adjacent counties have jail facilities that are approximately HALF utilized. Oneida County and Fulton County, for example, have enough open beds to house ALL of Herkimer's inmates and still have open beds left.

So, which county, exactly, would the new larger Herkimer County Jail be bedding in from? Exactly NONE.

BTW, the NYS Commission of Corrections will never allow full board out as a long term solution for Herkimer's problems, or any other county for that matter. Boarding out, or "ship them out" is only a short term fix. The CoC has already made that clear, officially. Its actually NYS law that each county shall operate a county jail.
fact is

Herkimer, NY

#11 Apr 26, 2013
Spend wisely wrote:
Would much rather support a Sheriff's road patrol that could help assist the prevention of crime than spending 35 million plus to house criminals once they commit illegalities.
A Sheriffs patrol could also help struggling villages and Towns by supplementing public safety protection.
help assist the prevention of crime? Ha! MOST law enforcement work is done after the fact, after crimes have been committed, not beforehand.
fact is

Herkimer, NY

#12 Apr 26, 2013
Added wrote:
If there was any money to made taking in inmates from other counties, Oneida Co wouldn't have an entire wing unoccupied. This whole project is just plain stupidity.......... All these counties putting in "extra" beds to rent out - well hello - now there are too many beds and the county taxpayers are stuck holding the bill.......... I can't stand it......
Exactly. There was a huge prison boom all across this country with building super huge prisons and jails that most ended up underutilized. Many areas got suckered into overbuilding and stuck with it.
Codes guy

Herkimer, NY

#13 Apr 27, 2013
You are forgetting one thing. The state is mandating every county have a jail. It will cost millions to fight that mandate.

Build a smaller 75 bed jail and be done with it.
barfly

Cold Brook, NY

#14 Apr 27, 2013
close this over paid play pen and ship our trash to arizona, good old joe will take care of the trash,also take the baby sitters...their useless
Competent Leadership

New York, NY

#15 Apr 27, 2013
fact is wrote:
<quoted text>
help assist the prevention of crime? Ha! MOST law enforcement work is done after the fact, after crimes have been committed, not beforehand.
And this is the problem; it is not about the policy or agenda but rather who do we have carrying it out. Just becuase it is not being done doesn't mean it shouldn't be. Along with a new facility we need a new Sheriff and Legislature!
aholes last words

Stephentown, NY

#16 Apr 28, 2013
question wrote:
Here's a thought that goes much deeper than any previous ones. I'm serious about it too, it's not a joke or sarcasm... If it costs roughly $2 million a year to house the inmates somewhere else, why don't we just do that? The cost of constructing a new jail was estimated at $33 million a few years ago. As we all know, that means it will really cost closer to $40 million. After all the tests, analysis, and designs are completed, that adds another 2 or 3 million dollars to the pot. Then you have to acquire the land, build the infrastructure to enable the jail to be built, or pay the village of herkimer for use of its water and sewer system for a lump sum of almost 1 million dollars plus whatever they would agree to annually. That makes almost $45 million dollars just to have the jail completed. Then you need to add the ANNUAL cost of additional payroll (with benefits of course), general maintenance, repairs, food, CABLE BILL, and all the other essentials inmates supposedly need to survive, and you are talking at least another million dollar a year to keep it running. At the end of 20 years we will have paid a total of close to 70 million dollars, maybe even more, and that is without giving anyone a raise for 20 years and without considering costs rising. If we ship the inmates out, then in the same 20 years we will have paid $40 million assuming also that costs stay the same. If we count on the cost of shipping inmates out rising, then we have to count on the yearly rising costs of keeping our own jail too. So any change to both pretty much evens out the difference in the end. Don't forget that after 20 years the jail will also need a new roof, new pavement, several new analysis from LaBella Associates, new equipment, new furnishings, etc. If the county makes their own treatment plant then add those repairs/replacement costs to the pot as well. Add that to the original cost of the jail, and you will see that if we build a jail it will take roughly 50 years to see a return on our investment. After that, the jail will be obsolete anyway and a new one will likely have to be built. We will never be ahead. Ship out the inmates. It will be cheaper, we won't have the hassle, and once prisoners are released at least they won't be released in Herkimer where they see how cheap it is to live here in comparison with where they came from, and end up staying and eating off of our welfare and medicaid system. The jail is a burden, the inmates are a burden, and released criminals are a burden when they stay. Even if they find jobs in the area, with a criminal record whatever job they are able to get will not support them or their family. They either continue their life of crime or we pay for them through social services. Get rid of them, we don't need them. Get rid of the jail. It's not only cheaper to ship them out, we're also better off not having them around. The only good a jail would do is to give jobs and benefits to a few local people. Jobs and benefits for which the county will have to pay for, funds which could be used for other purposes, or left off the budget altogether. The media should investigate exactly who would profit from building a jail (such as LaBella Associates, and some legislators who get political contributions from LaBella Associates -- copy and paste the 2010 OD article
http://www.uticaod.com/news/x932342307/Jail-c...
and other people, possibly friends or acquaintances of the legislators pushing for a jail who may profit from this as well). I’m not accusing anyone, just saying it should be looked at to make sure… Do a story on that, it may be interesting. Maybe a jail does need to be built, but it's a waste of money. If you are going to waste it, then at least waste it by shipping them out and not worrying about it. In the end it's cheaper anyway.
You are sooooo far off and have such a limited understanding of the situation it's embarrassing.
horses mouth

New York, NY

#17 Apr 28, 2013
aholes last words wrote:
<quoted text>
You are sooooo far off and have such a limited understanding of the situation it's embarrassing.
Thanks for the comment Legislator.
Bob

United States

#19 Apr 29, 2013
What difference does any of this make? Even if the police bother to catch a criminal, some judge that could care less is only going to let them off the hook or give them a slap on the wrist, no matter how many serious crimes the accused racks up over the years. Law enforcement and the courts in this county don't care about taxpayer's safety in the slightest, and would gladly release violent offenders back on the streets without the slightest twinge of conscience. This is easily verified again and again.

Bob
SURE THING

Stephentown, NY

#20 Apr 30, 2013
Bob wrote:
What difference does any of this make? Even if the police bother to catch a criminal, some judge that could care less is only going to let them off the hook or give them a slap on the wrist, no matter how many serious crimes the accused racks up over the years. Law enforcement and the courts in this county don't care about taxpayer's safety in the slightest, and would gladly release violent offenders back on the streets without the slightest twinge of conscience. This is easily verified again and again.
Bob
HEY BARTENDER!!!.......I'll have what he's having.
sorta

Herkimer, NY

#21 Apr 30, 2013
Bob wrote:
What difference does any of this make? Even if the police bother to catch a criminal, some judge that could care less is only going to let them off the hook or give them a slap on the wrist, no matter how many serious crimes the accused racks up over the years. Law enforcement and the courts in this county don't care about taxpayer's safety in the slightest, and would gladly release violent offenders back on the streets without the slightest twinge of conscience. This is easily verified again and again.
Bob
it will partially depend on skin color or if you're connected to the right people. If you're a local cop, you'll practically get away with murder and you can look at recent cases to see that.

Oneida County is just as bad. They are not color blind in the least.

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