Last chance, Lakewood school district...

Last chance, Lakewood school district tells voters

There are 40 comments on the DispatchPolitics story from Sep 30, 2010, titled Last chance, Lakewood school district tells voters. In it, DispatchPolitics reports that:

What: A community forum to address the $4.4 million in cuts that school officials said would be necessary if a Nov.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at DispatchPolitics.

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Lakewood resident

Lima, OH

#22 Sep 30, 2010
mary wrote:
Ask the superintendent if they have Pick-Up-On-The-Pick-Up. Ask what they are spending per year on each student. Ask what the salaries of parasites are. Ask how long it should take to teach a child to read, write and understand mathematical concepts. Get rid of Social Studies and other attitude-adjustment classes and teach true History. Parents can pay for their own sports, athletics, music and art.
Your comments aren't need... as obviously from your location your kid doesn't go to Lakewood. When Dublin pays for sports and their luxury items then you can comment!
Paul

Jackson, OH

#23 Sep 30, 2010
The question was asked why do they re-hire retired Administrators , one good reason , because the get them at a CHEAPER RATE !!

This is not a Union question ( I'm not a Union Member ) But the state has cut State support and the cost of Teaching Materials has gone up , just like the cost of running your house.
The tax increase is like " one dinner at Bob Evans " each week .
leslie

Dublin, OH

#24 Sep 30, 2010
Paul wrote:
The question was asked why do they re-hire retired Administrators , one good reason , because the get them at a CHEAPER RATE !!
This is not a Union question ( I'm not a Union Member ) But the state has cut State support and the cost of Teaching Materials has gone up , just like the cost of running your house.
The tax increase is like " one dinner at Bob Evans " each week .
So I don't get to eat out at Bob Evans once a week like I used to? Now I must give it up so your teachers can get a raise? I don't think so.
burg20

Newark, OH

#25 Sep 30, 2010
Please note that the lack of funds was not due to great spending increases, but from a loss of revenue that Lakewood schools had for many years, due to recent changes in laws to help promote business moving into the state(didn't work. THe loss revenue had given some relief from higher school property taxes for decades.

Also, as a former officer of the Lakewood Teachers Association, and one of their OEA reps during the past decade, I can assure you that the present situation is not due to the greed of the teachers. Our pay and benefits are average. We understand that we would never get the pay of some of our central Ohio neighbors. And obviously things will not get better during the next few years. I chose to stay these past 35 years due to the community. Also, the LTA gives back some of their local dues by giving away a scholarship to a Lakewood senior who is going into education each year.

THere is a lot of misinformation out there, and it seems that the Dispatch, the Advocate, and WLW radio(Cincinnati) are too often giving out false impressions/facts.

Also, I am NOT a liberal, not Democrat(Independent, with Republican leanings).
I do believe Strickland did try to get the state to a point of adhering to the courts, but unfortunately at a time when the economy tanked. But things do go in cycles, and just like we recovered in the late 1980's, and late 1990's(Tech bubble), we will recover, though this one seems more severe. Hopefully, lessons will be learned as far as govt/banking/securities trading.
(Don't get me started on Fannie Mae/Fannie Mac and the govt. intrusion that MAY have help lead us into these difficult times.)

There is need for some reforms, most of it at the state level, and there are some teacher benefits(state)that may need to be revisited. But that is another battle. This election is for this unique situation, for our present students' future, as well as the students in the future. Fight for reform, but this is NOT the battleground for it.

These students, many who are children/grandchildren of some of my former students, deserve a YES vote for THIS PARTICULAR LEVY.
burg20

Newark, OH

#26 Sep 30, 2010
Oh, so that someone doesn't get the wrong idea, and start attacking me for writing my previous entry(MY FIRST!!!!) during school time, I am retired. ALso, for those who go crazy about sick days, I used about 12 over 35 years, and most of those were for the funerals of my parents and loved ones. ANd no, despite the misinformation out there, we do NOT get paid for all the sick days(WOW, what I heard on WLW was unbelievable). As for personal days, I may have used 3 or 4 during the past 10 years, usually for meeting with attorneys for duties as an executor, or for transporting an aunt to her cancer doctor in KY(I was her POA). I made my doctor/dentist's appointments at times after school. Most teachers DON'T like to miss school. It was more work for me to prepare for such days when I knew I had to be out. Also, it's the idea of setting a good example for the students, just like my parents and teachers did when I was young.
Seenitallbefore

United States

#27 Sep 30, 2010
Burg, I totally agree with you. I do not know of any "rich" teachers. If there are, they either teach at a high class private school (not Catholic) or at a University.$40,000 to $50,000 dollars a year with 1o years experience and 2 degrees. That is not a lot of compensation for a professional person. I do understand as I do live around here, that there are a lot of people out of work. This is tough for everyone and I agree until our state politicians do as ordered by the court, there is no easy answer. Again, I ask. Are the proposed cuts worth losing $300 a year for. I think I would pay someone to get my child back and forth everyday to school the $300 per year, let alone all the other cuts including losing some good quality young teachers. We all can't afford to lose these people.(I do not live in Galloway even though that's what it says) I am a resident of East Central Ohio.
Jack

Columbus, OH

#28 Sep 30, 2010
david miller wrote:
<quoted text>
The real permanent fix is to get people to realize that everything costs money, some things cost more than others. Are your schools worth the investment ? If you have nevver worked in a school, go shadow someone who does. If you know someone who works at a school, talk to them and hear what it is like. Shadow your children as they attend class for a few days, and see what they go through, what their peers go through, or what the staff goes through on a daily basis. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you decide whether it is worth a few dollars more.
No, the real fix is to ban unionization of government employees. Without the teachers union many more entry-level teachers could be hired at lower salaries to replace under-performing, overpaid teachers. Problem almost solved. Then deal with the unsustainable pension promises.
Seenitallbefore

Columbus, OH

#29 Sep 30, 2010
Lower salaries? I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. The cost of a degree and then have to get a Masters? That is 6-7 years of your life when you really can't work full time or have a family,$35,000 a year to start is not what teachers should have to start at after all that, but some do. Tell your Doctor or Lawyer or CEO that. They will laugh in your face. Without Teachers there would be .... well you fill in the blanks
Friend of Burg20

Columbus, OH

#30 Sep 30, 2010
Ron,

You thoughts and ideas say it all.
Old Timer

AOL

#31 Sep 30, 2010
Being a retiree also, I applaud the rational explanation of Burg20. I was in education for 41 years, and loved the kids, the staff, the parents, but the stress of keeping a school afloat was unbelievable.

Vote for this issue folks, because even when you do, there will be H**l to pay when the next budget cycle comes with a 8 billion dollar shortfall. At least give this school a chance to survive.
Concerned Citizen

Reynoldsburg, OH

#32 Sep 30, 2010
I am a retired Columbus teacher. A few years ago I was talking with a young woman who started out in Columbus Schools, then moved to the Lakewood School District. She said that although the schools she attended in Columbus would never be considered among the best, she was way ahead of the kids in Lakewood schools. People think of city schools as being the worst, but because of lack of wealth, rural schools are often worse.
Jack

Columbus, OH

#33 Sep 30, 2010
Seenitallbefore wrote:
Lower salaries? I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. The cost of a degree and then have to get a Masters? That is 6-7 years of your life when you really can't work full time or have a family,$35,000 a year to start is not what teachers should have to start at after all that, but some do. Tell your Doctor or Lawyer or CEO that. They will laugh in your face. Without Teachers there would be .... well you fill in the blanks
Masters? In what, education? A fake degree requirement put in place to create an artificial barrier to people entering the profession. This attempt to limit the supply of teachers should be tossed in the trash where it belongs, along with all classes in pedagogical theory. If you have a real masters degree (think hard science or engineering) then that might be worth taxpayer money or your own.

The cost of a degree should have little impact on teacher salaries. The difficulty of being a teacher should be what determines salary. We should be allowed to hire fresh out-of-college teachers for $20k/year and give them 2 or 3 years to demonstrate their ability. If they don't cut it, set them free to do something else and get them the hell out of the classroom. A true master teacher, one who makes that cut and can be shown to successfully educate students over 10 or 20 years, should make a healthy 6 figure salary. The step increases that reward the good teachers and the idiots is not the way to breed excellence.

Further, the public shouldn't have to be worried about the ROI for a person who enters teaching. My employer didn't give a $hit how much I paid for my degree. If you want to teach and not have student loans, get an ROTC scholarship. If that doesn't matter to you, have fun at Princeton and pay for it later.
burg20

Newark, OH

#34 Sep 30, 2010
Jack wrote:
<quoted text>
Masters? In what, education? A fake degree requirement put in place to create an artificial barrier to people entering the profession. This attempt to limit the supply of teachers should be tossed in the trash where it belongs, along with all classes in pedagogical theory. If you have a real masters degree (think hard science or engineering) then that might be worth taxpayer money or your own.
The cost of a degree should have little impact on teacher salaries. The difficulty of being a teacher should be what determines salary. We should be allowed to hire fresh out-of-college teachers for $20k/year and give them 2 or 3 years to demonstrate their ability. If they don't cut it, set them free to do something else and get them the hell out of the classroom. A true master teacher, one who makes that cut and can be shown to successfully educate students over 10 or 20 years, should make a healthy 6 figure salary. The step increases that reward the good teachers and the idiots is not the way to breed excellence.
Further, the public shouldn't have to be worried about the ROI for a person who enters teaching. My employer didn't give a **** how much I paid for my degree. If you want to teach and not have student loans, get an ROTC scholarship. If that doesn't matter to you, have fun at Princeton and pay for it later.
Jack, such bitterness. Your $20,000/year is not reasonable, even in this terrible market. Barely over minimum wage. Not a way to attract better candidates into teaching profession. I agree that bad teachers(and bad engineers, and bad politician, and bad doctors, and bad McDonald managers) need to be able to be removed, but also due process/procedures need to be follow, so that good teachers, engineers, managers are not removed simply on the whim or disagreement with a superior(and yes, it does happen). As for the steps, in the 70's teachers did start at extremely low beginning salaries, sort of an apprenticeship, and the steps allowed those who survived the first 5 years of teaching(many don't, not cut for it) to build up to a living salary. Much have happened since then, things are better, but to get rid of the steps, you would have to START at a much greater salary, and in the long run may be better off, but the ones not cut out for teachers would start there too. But I do believe there are changes in the future, but it must be done at the STATE level, not individual schools.
Also, I worked on the farms, steel mills, loaded semis, etc. so I have work experience outside of teaching, Some of my friends dropped out of college to stay at the steel mill because the money was so much better than what they could hope to make in education. Different times, but to understand teachers' pay schedule, you need to look at the long history of teacher compensation, and not just a snapshot. Again, I do believe changes are coming. Actually higher salaries, and longer school years, are probably on their way within a decade(of course, I've thought this for many years).
For Concerned Citizen, be careful judging by one person's statement. I taught many of the advanced students in math, and many of our move-ins were far behind our students, weak on basics. But I would not judge the former school by that one student, as there are many pieces to the puzzle. For one, especially in math, teachers may cover standards in different order, so that a student who covered something early on at one school may move to another school and the students may just be starting that topic. Permutations, combinations, data analysis, geometry, systems of linear equations, etc. Also, in my master courses, I got to meet many GREAT teachers from many different types of schools, rural and urban.
Jack

Columbus, OH

#35 Sep 30, 2010
burg20 wrote:
<quoted text>
Jack, such bitterness. Your $20,000/year is not reasonable, even in this terrible market. Barely over minimum wage. Not a way to attract better candidates into teaching profession. I agree that bad teachers(and bad engineers, and bad politician, and bad doctors, and bad McDonald managers) need to be able to be removed, but also due process/procedures need to be follow, so that good teachers, engineers, managers are not removed simply on the whim or disagreement with a superior(and yes, it does happen). As for the steps, in the 70's teachers did start at extremely low beginning salaries, sort of an apprenticeship, and the steps allowed those who survived the first 5 years of teaching(many don't, not cut for it) to build up to a living salary. Much have happened since then, things are better, but to get rid of the steps, you would have to START at a much greater salary, and in the long run may be better off, but the ones not cut out for teachers would start there too. But I do believe there are changes in the future, but it must be done at the STATE level, not individual schools.
.
I think I don't disagree with you on some things. But I don't think we should protect any teachers via tenure or union rules. Good teachers will survive. Not always, but most of the time. And the cost to try and make it very difficult to remove a teachers has unintended costs in mediocrity. Principals should be the CEOs of their schools with hire & fire ability, and teachers should be on "employment at will" status. The same should apply to superintendents toward principals - they should be able to remove a principal at will. And the public should be able to remove the superintendents. 100% control from the top down with complete accountability to the taxpayers and parents.

As for $20k - you're right, its not a survivable income for most of us. But I know many recent top quality Ohio State grads in solid programs like chemistry, biology, spanish who would work for that if they could get a teaching job. They can't because union mandated pay structures limit the ability of schools to employ them.

And I believe a Masters in education is a waste because you can't make good teachers. Its fine if you want to pay for it on your own. For the teachers union to have coerced the state to make these a job requirement shows its simply creating a barrier to people entering the profession - protecting the employed at the expense of the unemployed. And teaching is like acting, singing or athletics. You can't create talent that isn't there to begin with. If I had chosen teaching, I hope somebody would have had the sense to boot me after a month, because I don't have the teaching gene.
Lakewood Too

Columbus, OH

#36 Oct 2, 2010
Ron,

You left the teaching profession too soon.
burg20

Newark, OH

#37 Oct 3, 2010
Lakewood Too wrote:
Ron,
You left the teaching profession too soon.
I know! Perfect storm of circumstances. But I have to look forward. And as I look around me, and look back on my career, I have been blessed.
burg20

Newark, OH

#38 Oct 3, 2010
Friend of Burg20 wrote:
Ron,
You thoughts and ideas say it all.
Thanks for the positive.
Lakewood Too

Columbus, OH

#39 Oct 4, 2010
Ron,

Your dedication and loyalty is very much missed in the Lakewood District.
JFN

Lima, OH

#40 Oct 23, 2010
I no longer have children in school,but there is always concern for the children.My question is what happened to the lottery that is suppose to be helping to fund schools,where is that money going to ? I think cutting cost is fine. but there should NOT be a cut in busing that is totally uncalled for. Cut sports, Cut even lunches. But busing should not be an opption. TOTALLY WRONG IDEA. It is wrong that you want the children to go to school and you deny them transportation for any reason . Take a paycut maybe that will solve some of the problem would you like that as an opption. I live through that problem a few years ago when my children were in school and was outraged then, I couldn`t believe that they did that, WHAT A CROCK!!!!
herman

Columbus, OH

#41 Oct 24, 2010
Concerned Citizen wrote:
I am a retired Columbus teacher. A few years ago I was talking with a young woman who started out in Columbus Schools, then moved to the Lakewood School District. She said that although the schools she attended in Columbus would never be considered among the best, she was way ahead of the kids in Lakewood schools. People think of city schools as being the worst, but because of lack of wealth, rural schools are often worse.
Folks often cry loudly when things such a building closing are announced. It is not the building that teaches the kids - it is the staff in building.

I also believe that generally the teachers try to do a good job. What hurts the learning process are many factors outside of the school building - poverty, single parent homes, and lack of interest by the parent to push the child to do better. Some schools start their day at 7am or 7:30. When you see 8-10 year olds at a grocery store at 9pm at night, you know that they are not getting enough sleep. You cannot learn if you are not awake.

Poverty will push a parent to have a second job, which may require that parent to work between 6pm and 10pm. The child is at home unsupervised, and school work is not at the top of their to-do list. Aside from getting the children to school, school buses also take the kids off risky roads.

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