Israeli troops begin Gaza pullout as Hamas declares cease-fire

[ALEX]

GJ the Palestinians wrote:

The chances of a lasting peace in the Middle East without compliance on 183 and 194 is zero. There are a billion Arabs Muslims in that part of the world and they are not going to stand for being pushed around by a few Israelis. How long it takes doesn’t matter. It is not if but when.

than there will be no peace so what? maybe the arab countrys could build a fund from the money they should compensate the jews for their property left behind and give it to palestinians they have been abusing in their countrys since 1948.
arab countrys pretend they are working in the refugees interests, so why not let them have a choise either to get citizenship and equal rights in the countrys they were born in or to wait it out until maybe their great great grandchildren might get israeli citizenship.

[Pumbaa]

Ize Lost wrote:

<quoted text>
I respectfully submit that the following had been said here, by TRD. The REAL battlefield isn't any video game. From your link:
>"Because of the nature of the battlefield... we unintentionally hurt civilians as well, just like we hurt our very own soldiers and officers," Ashkenazi said.<
Obviously, when you are the one getting hurt, it's on purpose. Want to hear it again? War is Hell, and that's no cliche. As for your continued use of the word "pressure", we work due to pressure to pay the bills. We breathe because of the pressure to live. We post here because of the pressure caused by whackos with their own agenda. Give it a rest. How about, after further review we will attempt to investigate further. If for nothing else, to address the false accusations put forth by racist Hamas and their admirers. Kind of like back pressure. ;)

War is Hell and Goldstone respects this. His contention is lines were crossed and human rights violations were committed by both sides and they need to be investigated in a genuine and through way. The fact this IDF chief is asking for Palestinian input- a NEW approach- shows that international pressure works on Israel- sorry you don't like it- but it works.

HEADING: Justice in Gaza by Richard Goldstone

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/opinion/17g...

>In the fighting in Gaza, all sides flouted that fundamental principle. Many civilians unnecessarily died and even more were seriously hurt. In Israel, three civilians were killed and hundreds wounded by rockets from Gaza fired by Hamas and other groups. Two Palestinian girls also lost their lives when these rockets misfired.

>In Gaza, hundreds of civilians died. They died from disproportionate attacks on legitimate military targets and from attacks on hospitals and other civilian structures. They died from precision weapons like missiles from aerial drones as well as from heavy artillery. Repeatedly, the Israel Defense Forces failed to adequately distinguish between combatants and civilians, as the laws of war strictly require.

>Israel is correct that identifying combatants in a heavily populated area is difficult, and that Hamas fighters at times mixed and mingled with civilians. But that reality did not lift Israel’s obligation to take all feasible measures to minimize harm to civilians.

>Our fact-finding team found that in many cases Israel could have done much more to spare civilians without sacrificing its stated and legitimate military aims. It should have refrained from attacking clearly civilian buildings, and from actions that might have resulted in a military advantage but at the cost of too many civilian lives. In these cases, Israel must investigate, and Hamas is obliged to do the same. They must examine what happened and appropriately punish any soldier or commander found to have violated the law.

[Pumbaa]

ALEX wrote:

<quoted text>
than there will be no peace so what? maybe the arab countrys could build a fund from the money they should compensate the jews for their property left behind and give it to palestinians they have been abusing in their countrys since 1948.
arab countrys pretend they are working in the refugees interests, so why not let them have a choise either to get citizenship and equal rights in the countrys they were born in or to wait it out until maybe their great great grandchildren might get israeli citizenship.

The choice of getting to the peace table is in Bibi's hands. I do agree that both sides can bring compensation requests to the table for displaced refugees.

I must say I like the way Bibi was handled in his recent trip to the US- Sends the clear message that he is not being seen as a helpful partner in the peace process- and he will continue to lose respect from the US as being a part of the problem and not the solution if he maintains his hardline policies on settlements.

HEADING: Washington disappointed: Netanyahu didn't present concrete steps

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.h...

>The late hour of the meeting, which was scheduled at the very last minute while Netanyahu was already on a plane to Washington, and the fact that the prime minister was transported in a simple van, and not the official government vehicle that usually takes world leaders to meetings with the president, also indicated that something was amiss.

[Ize Lost]

Pumbaa wrote:

<quoted text>
The choice of getting to the peace table is in Bibi's hands. I do agree that both sides can bring compensation requests to the table for displaced refugees.
I must say I like the way Bibi was handled in his recent trip to the US- Sends the clear message that he is not being seen as a helpful partner in the peace process- and he will continue to lose respect from the US as being a part of the problem and not the solution if he maintains his hardline policies on settlements.
HEADING: Washington disappointed: Netanyahu didn't present concrete steps
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.h...
>The late hour of the meeting, which was scheduled at the very last minute while Netanyahu was already on a plane to Washington, and the fact that the prime minister was transported in a simple van, and not the official government vehicle that usually takes world leaders to meetings with the president, also indicated that something was amiss.

Why don't you give Alex the respect and respond to his actual post, rather than use it as a lead in to more of your anti-Bibi-anti-Israel babble? You can't, that's why. Fk u. I hate you again.
I'm enjoying Veteran's Day at home, re-potting plants, cleaning up leaves and doing absolutely nothing, which includes what I'm doing here. Nastymae.

[Isabella]

GJ the Palestinians wrote:

. There are a billion Arabs Muslims in that part of the world and they are not going to stand for being pushed around by a few Israelis.

Step 1: middle-of-the-road brilliant Israeli (non-semetic, european stock, naturally) scientist.

Step 2: invents and perfects DNA/gene-targeting weapon.

Step 3: billion DEAD Arab-Muslims.

[Isabella]

Rambone wrote:

Israeli leaders should be brought to justice for genocidal crime against the innocent, defenseless Palestinians.

No, it's the innocent, defenseless Palestinians are the ones who should be brought to justice for Israel's genocidal crimes against them.

[Isabella]

ALEX wrote:

or to wait it out until maybe their great great grandchildren might get israeli citizenship.

Pipe dreame.

[Pumbaa]

Ize Lost wrote:

<quoted text>
Why don't you give Alex the respect and respond to his actual post, rather than use it as a lead in to more of your anti-Bibi-anti-Israel babble? You can't, that's why. Fk u. I hate you again.
I'm enjoying Veteran's Day at home, re-potting plants, cleaning up leaves and doing absolutely nothing, which includes what I'm doing here. Nastymae.

You wonder why I repeat myself??? I did respond to Alex...

Pumbaa wrote:

<quoted text>
I do agree that both sides can bring compensation requests to the table for displaced refugees.

As for using it as a springboard to hit my anti-hardline-Bibi talking point- would you have preferred I use my rant against the Anti-Arab/Pro-Israel US Foreign policy?

Quite honestly, seeing the way they treated Bibi with some disrespect in DC- I'm not so sure it applies this week...

[Pumbaa]

Bibi got the lack of respect he deserved and this sums it up nicely:

HEADING: The world is sick of Netanyahu's lack of policy

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127457.h...

>Israel's politicians simply don't get it: The world is sick and tired of the Israeli government's cat and mouse games. Netanyahu's one 'great' move so far has been to utter the words 'Palestinian state' during his foreign policy address at Bar Ilan University in June. For some reason the world did not rejoice and laud him for his enormous political creativity. Accepting a Palestinian State in principle is no breakthrough in 2009: it is, at most, par for the course.

>Ever since then, Netanyahu's behavior resembles that of a haggler at the Shuk more than that of a statesman: his major success has been in appeasing his right-wing coalition by not addressing any major policy issues. Instead he has engaged in endless bickering over whether Israel will or won't stop the building in the West Bank settlements, and has effectively prevented any serious peace negotiations.

[Ize Lost]

Pumbaa wrote:

<quoted text>
You wonder why I repeat myself??? I did respond to Alex...
<quoted text>
As for using it as a springboard to hit my anti-hardline-Bibi talking point- would you have preferred I use my rant against the Anti-Arab/Pro-Israel US Foreign policy?
Quite honestly, seeing the way they treated Bibi with some disrespect in DC- I'm not so sure it applies this week...

It was your usual dis-respectful pat on the head that you offer before you start earning your CAIR money. No Arab government, cabal, group, agency, et al, gives a shit about the Palistinians. Did you read that? Somehow, it Israel's problem. These Arab clusterfks have been screwing the Pals for years. But, they take advantage of the stupid Jew Hating "Mongols" to further THEIR cause=$$$$ because their sht is weak. Only people like you fall for it. You'll never get it, because money talks and fairness walks. It's not even 1:00 PM and you are pizzing me off, again.

[Pumbaa]

Ize Lost wrote:

<quoted text>
It was your usual dis-respectful pat on the head that you offer before you start earning your CAIR money. No Arab government, cabal, group, agency, et al, gives a shit about the Palistinians. Did you read that? Somehow, it Israel's problem. These Arab clusterfks have been screwing the Pals for years. But, they take advantage of the stupid Jew Hating "Mongols" to further THEIR cause=$$$$ because their sht is weak. Only people like you fall for it. You'll never get it, because money talks and fairness walks. It's not even 1:00 PM and you are pizzing me off, again.

What part of the Arab Peace Initiative do you not respect?

Do you think Israel needs the threat of violence before they start listening?

If you do try this:

HEADING: Assad: Syria has no preconditions for peace talks with Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127462.h...

>In a speech opening the 5th Conference of the Arab Parties titled "The Independent [double word-of-the-day score] Arab Decision", Assad stressed that Arab solidarity is a necessity for the independence of the Arab decision.

>On Monday, Assad warned that ailure [failure?] of Middle East peace negotiations would lead Arabs to turn to resistance as an "alternative solution".

>The Syrian leader said that rather than discussing a settlement freeze in the West Bank, he wanted to see a complete demolition of Israeli infrastructure there.

[Ize Lost]

Pumbaa wrote:

<quoted text>
What part of the Arab Peace Initiative do you not respect?
Do you think Israel needs the threat of violence before they start listening?
If you do try this:
HEADING: Assad: Syria has no preconditions for peace talks with Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127462.h...
>In a speech opening the 5th Conference of the Arab Parties titled "The Independent [double word-of-the-day score] Arab Decision", Assad stressed that Arab solidarity is a necessity for the independence of the Arab decision.
>On Monday, Assad warned that ailure [failure?] of Middle East peace negotiations would lead Arabs to turn to resistance as an "alternative solution".
>The Syrian leader said that rather than discussing a settlement freeze in the West Bank, he wanted to see a complete demolition of Israeli infrastructure there.

More deflection. Avoidance. You NEVER address those posts regarding your Arab brothers abusing the Pals. Never. We're done for the day. You are not going to spoil it. Oh, by the way....all your patriotic BS is just that. Fk Stk.

[Eran Levi - Israel]

NaNa wrote:

There is no true independance in a demilitarized state with an occupier stationed at every turn.

You know, maybe. I can see why the Palestinians would hate to give up to right to arms given Israel, a long time occupier in the region, is able at any moment to jump back in and regain control over their lives.

Then again, would you rather have no independance at all? Because few here in Israel agree that we can trust the Palestinians to not stab us at the back as soon as they get their own organized military. With so much hate, Israel simply does not see it as a security interest to breed another south-Lebanon or Gaza strip on its borders.

And so, without any apologies, Israel's offer is simple, take it or leave it - demilitarized state or no state at all and welcome to an eternity of occupation.

Think its unfair? politics never were about fairness, it was about interests - and a Palestinian army is not in Israel's interest - so its just won't be.

[Eran Levi - Israel]

Israeli-Palestinian peace talks are dying, Abu Mazen resigns and the future seems bleak for the vision of a Palestinian state.

Boy, I bet Mahmud Abbas wishes he had taken Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's offer before Bibi won the elections.

As usual, its all or nothing for the Palestinians and as expected... yet again... they're left with nothing.

History repeats itself over and over again, its just a bad joke.

[ALEX]

Pumbaa wrote:

<quoted text>
The choice of getting to the peace table is in Bibi's hands. I do agree that both sides can bring compensation requests to the table for displaced refugees.
I must say I like the way Bibi was handled in his recent trip to the US- Sends the clear message that he is not being seen as a helpful partner in the peace process- and he will continue to lose respect from the US as being a part of the problem and not the solution if he maintains his hardline policies on settlements.
HEADING: Washington disappointed: Netanyahu didn't present concrete steps
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127420.h...
>The late hour of the meeting, which was scheduled at the very last minute while Netanyahu was already on a plane to Washington, and the fact that the prime minister was transported in a simple van, and not the official government vehicle that usually takes world leaders to meetings with the president, also indicated that something was amiss.

the best way to stop settlements is to get a serious negotiation and reach a final deal. there is way to much emphasis on a total freeze. asking not to take more land to build new towns is understandable but no to build anything in existing towns when everybody pretty much understand that the blocs will probably be kept under israel control. not to be able to build a single house inside the outerlines of the city until farther notice in places like maale adumim which has 34,000 resedents.
its best to reach a final borders peace deal that would help get support in israel to the displacment of all the isolated settelments outside the blocs build a way between us and the Palestinians and hopefully not have to go back on its other side.
obama is trying to get you to think its only in the hands of bibi which suddenly decided to start building in the settelment but the truth is that settlers have alot of political power and its not just a question of wanting to stop the expandtion or not. bibi probably agreed to do more to stop settelments than every goverment in the past including left winged ones.
some of those settelers are hardline and ideology driven. you take out 1 illegal settelment by force, the next day they will come with caravans and take that hill and the one next to it.
only a serious situation changing operation like the one done in the gaza strip that will resettle all of them inside israel and draw final borders between israel and palestine will probably work.
but i don't want to sound as if i place the blame of all this mess on the settlers.
in retrospect it would have been better to try and find a partner right after 1967 and reach a deal back then but its easy to know what to do in retrospect its alot harder to know what the future would bring and israeli goverments were a part of the problem that brought settlers through out the years to live there.

[Isabella]

Pumbaa wrote:

War is Hell

Spoken like someone who has never been to or even seen the inside of combat, fighting or conflict of any kind.

In fact, war is the opposite of hell. It's hard to put it into words for the uninitiated peaceniks like you, but war is beauty, truth and soul-compassion rolled into one fantastic assault on the senses.

Brings out the absolute best out of people, young, old, young -- but especially the young.

[Isabella]

Eran Levi - Israel wrote:

And so, without any apologies, Israel's offer is simple, take it or leave it - demilitarized state or no state at all and welcome to an eternity of occupation.
Think its unfair? politics never were about fairness, it was about interests - and a Palestinian army is not in Israel's interest - so its just won't be.

Nice to see even privileged left-wing pinko Israelis like you, Eran, come around to dealing with reality.

I wonder what GJ the Palestinian thinks of your offer, though,.

[Isabella]

Eran Levi - Israel wrote:

few here in Israel agree that we can trust the Palestinians to not stab us at the back as soon as they get their own organized military.

\

I take it you're not a big fan of the idea of HAMAS snipers on Jerusalem rooftops and dirty bomb stuck into the Wailing wall, that this "peace" "process" will inevitably lead to.

[Eran Levi - Israel]

Isabella wrote:

Spoken like someone who has never been to or even seen the inside of combat, fighting or conflict of any kind.
In fact, war is the opposite of hell. It's hard to put it into words for the uninitiated peaceniks like you, but war is beauty, truth and soul-compassion rolled into one fantastic assault on the senses.
Brings out the absolute best out of people, young, old, young -- but especially the young.

What a bunch of bullshit, War is beauty? only in video games like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare...

War does not bring the best in people, on the contrary. War breeds death and no one wants to mourn the loss of their loved one.

We must be very wise and pick our wars carefully, some wars are unavoidable for the best of our future, but some wars (namely the 1st world war as the biggest example) are utterly horrible and unnecessary.

[Isabella]

Pumbaa wrote:

Bibi got the lack of respect he deserved and this sums it up nicely:
HEADING: The world is sick of Netanyahu's lack of policy
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1127457.h...
>Israel's politicians simply don't get it: The world is sick and tired of the Israeli government's cat and mouse games. Netanyahu's one 'great' move so far has been to utter the words 'Palestinian state' during his foreign policy address at Bar Ilan University in June. For some reason the world did not rejoice and laud him for his enormous political creativity. Accepting a Palestinian State in principle is no breakthrough in 2009: it is, at most, par for the course.
>Ever since then, Netanyahu's behavior resembles that of a haggler at the Shuk more than that of a statesman: his major success has been in appeasing his right-wing coalition by not addressing any major policy issues. Instead he has engaged in endless bickering over whether Israel will or won't stop the building in the West Bank settlements, and has effectively prevented any serious peace negotiations.

Meh.

Bibi answers to God and noone else.