wet/dry issue

[Kylie F]

the wet/dry issue is so totally ridiculous - I'm a Catholic, I love God, I live my life according to the Bible and the many wonderful teachings of our Lord. And, guess what, I drink. And so does my 70 year old mother and our family friend, our priest. Not to excess, but for the taste, enjoyment and whatever other damn reason I want. I'm an adult

[CV REsident]

Your a drunk, both you and your ole lady, your priest and what ever you rode in on.

Kylie F wrote:

the wet/dry issue is so totally ridiculous - I'm a Catholic, I love God, I live my life according to the Bible and the many wonderful teachings of our Lord. And, guess what, I drink. And so does my 70 year old mother and our family friend, our priest. Not to excess, but for the taste, enjoyment and whatever other damn reason I want. I'm an adult

[Sanford]

CV REsident wrote:

Your a drunk, both you and your ole lady, your priest and what ever you rode in on. <quoted text>

If you had been present at the wedding at Cana, would you have called Jesus Christ, Mary, and the wedding party for which He supplied the wine drunks as well?

[CV REsident]

You are a drunk and smoke weed too!

Sanford wrote:

<quoted text>
If you had been present at the wedding at Cana, would you have called Jesus Christ, Mary, and the wedding party for which He supplied the wine drunks as well?

[Sanford]

CV REsident wrote:

You are a drunk and smoke weed too!<quoted text>

You did not answer my question. If you are just going to engage in diatribe, I will not be engaging in dialog with you much longer.

So to make it easy for you to recall, I ask you again, would you have called Jesus a drunk for making wine for the Cana wedding, and for that matter, hanging out with the drunks and sinners?

You are a perfect example of the truth that what goes into a person does not defile a person, but what comes out of a person's heart does. There are some drunks who are more righteous than you, for they have love in their hearts even though they might have an addiction to alcohol. You, on the other hand, have a much worse ailment...you have a hard and judgmental heart, a much worse sin in the eyes of God. You behavior hurts you the most, more than anyone you might be going after with your limited wordsmith skills. The hardness in your heart can cause physical hardness and disease. For your own sake, lighten up. The Lord, it is said, looks on the heart more than the outer actions. I may not know your identity, but the Most High does. You cannot play online hide and seek with that One. How you treat your fellow human beings is how you are treating your Creator, according to the Good Book. I suggest you fall back and regroup and take a few breaths and reconsider your position and attitude....or don't. It is all the same to me. I am saying this for your sake, not to zing you. Your soul knows that. Do not let your mind steal the truth that your soul knows.

So what about it? Would you call Jesus, his mother and disciples drunk for making and probably enjoying some of the wine at the Cana wedding?

Peace be with you.

[Wine is a mocker]

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

Where does it say that Jesus DRANK the wine? What was the alcohol content of the wine?

Here is an interesting commentary on the passage if you care to read it. It goes much deeper than your pretense on making alcohol acceptable behavior.

http://biblecommenter.com/john/2-3.htm

[Sanford]

Wine is a mocker wrote:

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Where does it say that Jesus DRANK the wine? What was the alcohol content of the wine? Here is an interesting commentary on the passage if you care to read it. It goes much deeper than your pretense on making alcohol acceptable behavior.
http://biblecommenter.com/john/2-3.htm

Dueling Bible quotes is not my thing, but here is one for you:

http://bible.cc/matthew/15-17.htm

To take wine in moderation is not being drunken. Sure, excess in anything is not good. I will take New Testament advice over the Old, but a mix of both and some common sense is wisdom.

Here is another:
http://bible.cc/1_timothy/5-23.htm

...and another
http://bible.cc/matthew/11-19.htm

...and another
http://bible.cc/proverbs/23-20.htm

...and another
I could not find it, but St. Paul speaks also of taking a little wine for health.

So that is how it goes when folks try to use the Bible to make a point that is not very sharp. I have seen people use the Bible to prove all kinds of things they think are true, and they will cherry pick the quotes that back up their claims, in order to lend credibility to their argument. I will say again, what goes in does not defile the person, but what come out does. That is straight from Jesus' mouth. I will take that over your cherry picked quotes. And God looks more on one's heart and inner motives and prayers more than the outer imperfections and bad habits. Being judgmental is more of a sin than drinking in excess, and can do as much if not more harm to your body AND your soul.

A woman once accused Sir Winston Churchill of being a drunk, to which he replied something like 'Yes, madam, I am now drunk, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.' That man, along with Eisenhower and the Allied Forces, pretty much saved the world from the Nazis taking over the whole place. Now do you think that the good Lord is going to punish Sir Winston for his drinking? I think not. Sir Winston punished his own body and that is long gone, but his soul is not touched by the drink.

Peace be with you.

[Sanford]

...one more thing...

St. Paul says somewhere (you can find it yourself or you may know it already) that nothing is good or evil in and of itself. It takes on good or evil traits based on what a person does with it.

I agree with you that drunkenness is to be avoided and that it brings on bad things for the person and the society he or she lives in.

A wise man once said:
"You get more stinkin' from thinkin' than you do from drinkin'. I think you get my drift. Peace.

[CV REsident]

Amen! He can comment and type pages full but anything will never beat this answer. You have been "served" Sanford!

Wine is a mocker wrote:

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Where does it say that Jesus DRANK the wine? What was the alcohol content of the wine?
Here is an interesting commentary on the passage if you care to read it. It goes much deeper than your pretense on making alcohol acceptable behavior.
http://biblecommenter.com/john/2-3.htm

[Meg]

I'm confused by the need for a biblical smackdown. The wet/dry issue comes down to a vote. One would hope that such a vote would be based on sound reasoning and facts of such a change on the community through the study of the many other places across the south that have made such a transition.

Whatever the Christian right may think, we are a secular country. That said whatever goes into any individual's calcus to decide the vote is his/her business.

Why not consider the factual benifits such as lowew DWI arrests and accidents, lower illicit drug use and increased municiple revinue in addition to religious dogma.

[Sanford]

CV REsident wrote:

Amen! He can comment and type pages full but anything will never beat this answer. You have been "served" Sanford!<quoted text>

Sounds like you have some post reading to catch up on.

[Wine is a mocker]

Sanford wrote:

<quoted text>
Dueling Bible quotes is not my thing, but here is one for you:
http://bible.cc/matthew/15-17.htm
To take wine in moderation is not being drunken. Sure, excess in anything is not good. I will take New Testament advice over the Old, but a mix of both and some common sense is wisdom.
Here is another:
http://bible.cc/1_timothy/5-23.htm
...and another
http://bible.cc/matthew/11-19.htm
...and another
http://bible.cc/proverbs/23-20.htm
...and another
I could not find it, but St. Paul speaks also of taking a little wine for health.
So that is how it goes when folks try to use the Bible to make a point that is not very sharp. I have seen people use the Bible to prove all kinds of things they think are true, and they will cherry pick the quotes that back up their claims, in order to lend credibility to their argument. I will say again, what goes in does not defile the person, but what come out does. That is straight from Jesus' mouth. I will take that over your cherry picked quotes. And God looks more on one's heart and inner motives and prayers more than the outer imperfections and bad habits. Being judgmental is more of a sin than drinking in excess, and can do as much if not more harm to your body AND your soul.
A woman once accused Sir Winston Churchill of being a drunk, to which he replied something like 'Yes, madam, I am now drunk, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly.' That man, along with Eisenhower and the Allied Forces, pretty much saved the world from the Nazis taking over the whole place. Now do you think that the good Lord is going to punish Sir Winston for his drinking? I think not. Sir Winston punished his own body and that is long gone, but his soul is not touched by the drink.
Peace be with you.

Poor sap, you missed the whole point of the post. Maybe you should go back and READ it.

[Sanford]

No, I am going to buy out of our dialog. Seems you too are a mocker and there is no sense in dealing with you in your present mindset. Peace.

[Wine is a mocker]

Sanford wrote:

No, I am going to buy out of our dialog. Seems you too are a mocker and there is no sense in dealing with you in your present mindset. Peace.

Is there no sense in dealing with me only because you don't have an intelligent answer?

People use the Jesus made water into wine to somehow justify drinking. The FACT is SCRIPTURE does not say THOU SHALT NOT DRINK, however, that said, there are several verses that warn about wine and the affects thereof. Also, Biblical wine did not have NEAR the ALCOHOL content as today's alcoholic beverages do.

If one chooses to drink it is their choice. Just as every thing they do is their choice. Whether they choose to steal or to work. Whether they choose to be honest or lie. IT is their choice, but the thing that people seem to ignore is that their choices have consequences and they don't get to pick their consequences.

If one is to...But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;

and .....Abstain from all appearance of evil.

How is one to do that if they are dabbling in things that are not HOLY and if one is NOT ABSTAINING from things that have the appearance of evil?

It certainly gives a person a bad testimony if they consume alcohol on a regular basis, and God forbid if someone who is 'weak' in the faith sees that a 'good' Christian can drink alcohol and not have a problem with it and then they take up drinking and end up on skid row?

No sir, it isn't about YOU and what liberties YOU may have, it is about YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to OTHERS.

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

How many parents drink and then have their kids start drinking when they are 10 and then start doing drugs and end up killing themselves? I believe our town has had two suicides in a relatively short time. It has been said that drugs and alcohol were part of one of the suicides maybe both.

[Sanford]

Since you changed your demeanor, I will answer you. I would not avoid you for lack of an answer or because we disagree, but I would if you were being unreasonable in your approach.

Having said that, it seems we have a difference of interpretation. I really do not know what else to say. If I choose to have some wine at my table in my home, or with friends who are responsible, I see no violation. If I get stinking drunk in public, then you got me.

I can really appreciate your side of this. Alcohol has destroyed many lives and many families. But so has adultery, food, judgementalism, pride, greed, all the seven deadly sins and their buddies. Just don't pretend to have an inside lane on the truth or on what the Good Book says with me. Like I said before, people can put quotes together from the Bible to prove two opposite sides of many arguments. The most important thing is that we have peace with each other while we talk about our differences. Even the disciples quarreled over things. Let us not make the same mistake.

'Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it'.~Proverbs 22:6

That's the ticket.

[CV REsident]

"Smack down" again Sanford. And the truth shall set you free. You go with the truth there "Wine is a mocker"

Wine is a mocker wrote:

<quoted text>
Is there no sense in dealing with me only because you don't have an intelligent answer?
People use the Jesus made water into wine to somehow justify drinking. The FACT is SCRIPTURE does not say THOU SHALT NOT DRINK, however, that said, there are several verses that warn about wine and the affects thereof. Also, Biblical wine did not have NEAR the ALCOHOL content as today's alcoholic beverages do.
If one chooses to drink it is their choice. Just as every thing they do is their choice. Whether they choose to steal or to work. Whether they choose to be honest or lie. IT is their choice, but the thing that people seem to ignore is that their choices have consequences and they don't get to pick their consequences.
If one is to...But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;
and .....Abstain from all appearance of evil.
How is one to do that if they are dabbling in things that are not HOLY and if one is NOT ABSTAINING from things that have the appearance of evil?
It certainly gives a person a bad testimony if they consume alcohol on a regular basis, and God forbid if someone who is 'weak' in the faith sees that a 'good' Christian can drink alcohol and not have a problem with it and then they take up drinking and end up on skid row?
No sir, it isn't about YOU and what liberties YOU may have, it is about YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to OTHERS.
It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
How many parents drink and then have their kids start drinking when they are 10 and then start doing drugs and end up killing themselves? I believe our town has had two suicides in a relatively short time. It has been said that drugs and alcohol were part of one of the suicides maybe both.

[Sanford]

CV REsident wrote:

"Smack down" again Sanford. And the truth shall set you free. You go with the truth there "Wine is a mocker"<quoted text>

Smack down? What are you talking about? This is not TV wrestling.

You can teach a parrot to recite Bible verses, but does he know what he is saying? The letter kills and the spirit give life.

Like I said before,'You get more stinkin' from thinkin' than you do from drinkin.'

That is not just a cute rhyme. There is truth in it for YOU.

[Wine is a mocker]

Sanford wrote:

Since you changed your demeanor, I will answer you. I would not avoid you for lack of an answer or because we disagree, but I would if you were being unreasonable in your approach.
Having said that, it seems we have a difference of interpretation. I really do not know what else to say. If I choose to have some wine at my table in my home, or with friends who are responsible, I see no violation. If I get stinking drunk in public, then you got me.
I can really appreciate your side of this. Alcohol has destroyed many lives and many families. But so has adultery, food, judgementalism, pride, greed, all the seven deadly sins and their buddies. Just don't pretend to have an inside lane on the truth or on what the Good Book says with me. Like I said before, people can put quotes together from the Bible to prove two opposite sides of many arguments. The most important thing is that we have peace with each other while we talk about our differences. Even the disciples quarreled over things. Let us not make the same mistake.
'Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it'.~Proverbs 22:6
That's the ticket.

My demeanor has not changed as you may think. I take the same stand as always. AND though you claim to be 'responsible' it still stands to reason that YOUR actions could easily cause someone else to stumble. Once again you are only thinking of YOURSELF and not of others.

As I stated in my earlier post it is in fact your choice to do those things, but there are consequences to every action and unfortunately you do not get to pick your consequences.

As far as adultery and the other things that you mentioned, yes, they too are wrong in that people should not be doing them, but you are attempting to point the finger at what someone else may be doing to justify your consumption of alcohol. I think that would fall under the 'pride' thing of the seven deadly sins that you mentioned.

The simple fact is God gave us His Word and it is very simple and clear cut as to what we are supposed to be doing and what we are NOT to be doing. Just because the disciples had disagreements has nothing to do with today. Just because you think that some parts of the Bible don't apply to you has nothing to do with what God's Word says.

You can come up with 'contradictions' in scripture all day long, but if you in fact actually READ scripture in its proper context you will see that there are no contradictions as you claim.

So you want to drink, go ahead. Personally, I never touch the stuff and could care less about it. Your life is yours and YOU are accountable to God for what you do.

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

You YOURSELF will give an account to God for EVERYTHING that you did.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I think more people would benefit if they spent more time on studying to shew thyself approved unto God, rather than justifying their 'right' to drink or whatever else their flesh wishes to indulge in.

[Sanford]

'Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?'

14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. 16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. 17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

'Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.'

I will take Jesus' own words, over anything else in the Book, or anything you throw at me. For, my brother, some of the very people we seek to help as Christians may be drinkers, and with everything else they might be up against, the last thing they need is a self righteous 'Christian' condemning them for their drinking, when there are probably other concerns that take priority, such as discovering what is making that person drink alot, and then working from a brotherly place and not from a holier than thou teetotalling position.

Understanding has levels. I can appreciate your desire to have understanding and share it, and I know in your heart you want to be a good disciple of Christ. Just don't make the same mistake so many Christians make by becoming a scribe or pharisee yourself, who strained at gnats and swallowed camels.

We do not even keep alcohol in the house. We may have some wine or something light now and then. I am not here defending MY right to drink. I am saying to you that you might be a better servant of the Most High and those you wish to help, if you worked WITH people and not ON them. Yes, alcohol can become a big problem, but it is merely a symptom of an even bigger one, and that is our task if we choose to take it on, to work on the cause in the spiritual realm, not the effect, and not be distracted by the outer appearance of things and people in your desire to help.
Peace be with you.

[Sanford]

"There is NOTHING from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man."
-Jesus Christ

There are spiritual people who have a drinking problem, and there are mean spirited people who profess God, Jesus and the Bible and have all kinds of lust, greed, etc in their hearts. Drinking is not a dealbreaker, but thinking and harboring darkness in one's heart is.

Sure, in a perfect world, drink is not the best thing to do to one's body in most cases. But we are not there yet. I sincerely hope that if someday you are in front of someone that the Lord has put a burden on your heart to minister to, and if that person drinks, that you do not focus on that, but rather seek to know the heart of the person and understand what is driving that person to excess? Once the problem is addressed, in most cases the outer manifestations like drinking fall away. He or she who has ears to hear, let him or her hear.