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former res

Cheshire, CT

#72298 Apr 22, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok - now that we have dispensed with the contextual issues (in my previous post)...
Of course there is a linkage between the Torah and my beliefs and practices. The way I approach it, probably similar to the way more than a few devout Christians approach their scripture - is that I assume that the text is trying to tell me something. What it is I dont always know. And often what is being told is through what is not being mentioned at the time (i.e. the intellectual gaps in the narrative).
So my job is to seek out what is of value. Sometimes the encounter leads to fertile ground, sometimes the encounter just leads to a respectful stand off, sometimes it is enough to just chant or read the text as a form of worship (as on Saturday in synagogue) and/or as a meditative exercise and leave it at that...
That approach is diametrically opposite to the idea of approaching the text with scientific skepticism and looking to the outside for evidence to prove or disprove. Nothing wrong with that approach either, but that is a scientific, rational approach, NOT a religious mode. And not to say that a scientific approach has nothing to offer, rather often such an approach can enhance the religious approach by offering another perspective - creating more depth.
So you hold these writings in higher esteem then you would "old wives tales, now codified?"

Fair to say?

As do most Christians and other believers I would think. That was my point.

But I appreciate the peek inside as to how you view them, think of them and gain meaning from them.

I think that literature (obviously some more than others) can also hold meaning for non-believers. Good fiction can also impart meaning and life lessons. And folks like me might say this what is going on but you simply look at it differently.

Does that sound reasonable?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72299 Apr 22, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You've also encountered hate, racism, anti-Semitism, ignorance......and chosen not to embrace them. So perhaps (not to be anti-Semantic!) it's a semantics things. This is a philosophy you have in fact embraced and choose to stick with, follow......however you want to say.....true?
generally speaking, in matters of philosophy and ethics, I dont need others to tell me how to live, rather, I notice from the other what resonates with what I already intuit...And often the "other" does a better job articulating or expressing what I already believe or feel.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>Perhaps it was this line that threw me off the intended meaning:
"Old wives tales that unfortunately got codified."
And I followed with...."Same for Moses, Norah etc......?."
Was that a yes or a no, BTW?
:)
Guilty - but intended as a slapdown to Apu, more then any statement of creed.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72300 Apr 22, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
It's Ok.
"I wish I knew how to quit you."

Brokeback Mountain (2005)

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72301 Apr 22, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL.
But, I reverted to my true yogic nature after that brief stint with atheism which I hooked on to due to the unbearable force attacks as said in my earlier post...
And tomorrow you may revert to....

Your entire Topix career is a testament to manic-depression and schizophrenia

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72302 Apr 22, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
And the funny thing is, he sees himself as so intelligent, so superior to others.
Yet he is just as much of a sheep. "The opiate of the masses."
He had me fooled for a bit.
Did he really have you fooled about anything? I assumed you were merely being polite in order to hear him out...

I have never met a serious devotee of Bhuddism that has such a mean, heartless, and selfish streak. Its basically impossible to follow that path for REAL and still be a meanie.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72304 Apr 22, 2014
I am delighted that Sri Aurobindo brought to light in the past century the mind-boggling SUPRAMENTAL YOGA which is the most exacting of all the existing yogas and whose results are way superior to those of the other yogas. The Supramental Yoga is the rarest of rare Mind-Matter disciplines of direct realization that is aimed at the mystico-intellectual elite.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72305 Apr 22, 2014
DIVISION OF THE FORCE IN THE BODY

The direct experiences in the supramental yoga reveal that in every human being the field of the energy of consciousness that permeates the body and which is connected by force lines to the cosmic planes divides itself into 2 currents - one stationed at the top of the head and the other at the base of the spinal nerves forming an invisible arc that runs through the force centers in the spinal cord from head to base of spine.

These apical and basal force currents are dormant or very feebly active in the ordinary human being but which are activated in varying degrees in the yogis depending on which of the 2 currents gets activated.

The ideal yoga is one in which both the upper current and the lower current get simultaneously activated or get activated in quick succession and in the process as the activated current above the head descends into the nervous system, the activated current locked in at the base of the spine begin ascending the spinal nerves and at one point both the descending current and ascending current meet and the result is harmony in the being with the body's force field opening up to the cosmic planes via the activated force centers in the body.

If just one of the 2 currents gets activated then the yoga is partial.

It's safer if the descent begins prior to the ascent.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72306 Apr 22, 2014
PSYCHIC AWAKENING PRIOR TO DESCENT/ASCENT OF THE FORCE

Prior to the descent of the upper current from its station above the head into the brain and spinal nerves and/or before the ascent of the lower current from its station at the base of the spinal cord upwards into the spinal nerves, the psychic consciousness, that dwells in the consciousness-force field corresponding to the cardiac center in the center of the spine, should get activated and take full charge of the ongoing yogic force movements. With the superlative organizing power of the awakened psychic in the forefront it is now safe for the descent and the ascent to take place.

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72307 Apr 22, 2014
Salutations to Sri Aurobindo and the Mother.

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#72308 Apr 22, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
And tomorrow you may revert to....
Your entire Topix career is a testament to manic-depression and schizophrenia
LOL.
Eric

Arlington Heights, IL

#72309 Apr 22, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I asked what it takes to call oneself Jewish and then summarized your responses.
And clearly Eric thought you had things well in hand here so declined to respond. So far anyway.
But your response is actually reasonable to me. After thinking about it. So I shouldn't have been so flip.
At first it sounded all Lucy-goosey but then I remembered a conversation I had once with a Christian.
I asked (as you see I do) about his beliefs. He replied that he didn't need to believe IN god or JC, only the teachings OF god or more specifically, Jesus:
1Chris·tian noun \&#712;kris-ch&#601;n, &#712;krish-\
: a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ
So perhaps same for Jews. You only have to believe in the overall philosophy.
But I think what started all this was your comment about the theatrics of JC. Which still is no more magical than Moses or Noah etc.. so, same, same...still applies. Apu's fairy tales vs your own. who's to say which is sillier or more credible or whatever?
I didn't respond because it's a tough question. Still contemplating
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72310 Apr 22, 2014
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>I didn't respond because it's a tough question. Still contemplating
I hear ya.

Raised Catholic and still not sure what makes a real Catholic.

Like any of the clubs, they pick and choose which rules to follow.

I still say, follow the Golden Rule and you can't go too far wrong.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72311 Apr 23, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I hear ya.
Raised Catholic and still not sure what makes a real Catholic.
Like any of the clubs, they pick and choose which rules to follow.
I still say, follow the Golden Rule and you can't go too far wrong.
Its more than that though. Often we are born into these groups, and have no say about that.("every sperm is sacred........", remember Monty Python?)

So even with Catholicism, there is an ethnic component that results in a certain demographic culture - the question is what does that demographic share culturally? Or in your question - the flip of that - what are the boundaries of that culture?

You can also ask the question I suppose from the more rigid perspective of canon as well. I just thought the cultural demographic perspective was more widely meaningful..

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72312 Apr 23, 2014
Eric wrote:
<quoted text>I didn't respond because it's a tough question. Still contemplating
It gets tougher when you consider groups like the Humanist Jews. I opined previously that unlike the Messianics, I consider the Humanists Jewish, if only by ancestry. But I suppose one could use that argument narrowly against any denomination below your level of observance (i.e. how an Orthodox views a Conservative views a Reform etc etc..). An viewpoint I don't particularly embrace. So where are the boundaries?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72313 Apr 23, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its more than that though. Often we are born into these groups, and have no say about that.("every sperm is sacred........", remember Monty Python?)
So even with Catholicism, there is an ethnic component that results in a certain demographic culture - the question is what does that demographic share culturally? Or in your question - the flip of that - what are the boundaries of that culture?
You can also ask the question I suppose from the more rigid perspective of canon as well. I just thought the cultural demographic perspective was more widely meaningful..
Absolutely. Though I think that aspect was more important in years past. Melting pot etc.

Irish-Catholic had its own identity/culture and guilt!! Jewish guilt is also quite well known as in "you never visit your motha!" I-C guilt was more about not touching yourself! and so on.

I think you see the ethnic piece more clearly in the cities - like Phila for example, the various Catholic neighborhoods - Polish, Italian (South Philly, think Rocky, cheesesteaks etc) 0and Irish (the sign says "Ye ole 2 Street" for 2nd Street) Ever hear of the Mummers? Very Irish south phila - and Catholic.

But my question did deal more with the religion itself as I can't stop being Irish and you can't stop being ethnically Jewish, and I know they are linked in many ways but regardless there has to be a limit to what can stop believing and still call himself a believer.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#72314 Apr 23, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
But my question did deal more with the religion itself as I can't stop being Irish and you can't stop being ethnically Jewish, and I know they are linked in many ways but regardless there has to be a limit to what can stop believing and still call himself a believer.
I guess my point is when even dealing with the religion itself, the ethnic component may still be inseparable. Or, to get all social science on you, Jews, like many groups, have oppositional identities. I.E. we are what we are not. We dont worship Jesus. Thats a major boundary.

But to narrowly focus on your question - I would think you would need some type of god concept to be Jewish. Not necessarily theism, but something. Humanism crosses a red line.

You dont need to believe that Torah was given to Jews by God, or that Torah was written by God - the Reform movement doesnt believe that - they believe that the Torah is mans written response TO god.

You don't have to believe that Jews were chosen by God anymore than other peoples to do God's will - The Reconstructionists and the Reform jettisoned that concept as well.

You do have to believe in a core set of ethics -(not unlike Catholicism) such as charity, concern for the poor, making the world a better place, lovingkindness, social justice etc etc, and believe in a core set of holiday observances (whether you observe them or not).....You dont have to keep kosher (even though you know you do!)- from a practical perspective many Jews don't.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72315 Apr 23, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess my point is when even dealing with the religion itself, the ethnic component may still be inseparable. Or, to get all social science on you, Jews, like many groups, have oppositional identities. I.E. we are what we are not. We dont worship Jesus. Thats a major boundary.
But to narrowly focus on your question - I would think you would need some type of god concept to be Jewish. Not necessarily theism, but something. Humanism crosses a red line.
Judaism is considered a monotheistic religion. Theistic.
Also one is a theist or an atheist - the old binary switch is on or it isn't.(With gnostic vs agnostic question to quickly follow..) Again, boundaries, basic truths.

Guess I'm still not clear (or don't agree with) the "god concept" vs theism difference.

Otherwise, maybe I'm just being t0o strict and can go ahead and call myself Catholic or Christian. Perhaps I'm taking them too much at their word and respecting the religion and beliefs too much to still call myself one of them??
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You dont need to believe that Torah was given to Jews by God, or that Torah was written by God - the Reform movement doesnt believe that - they believe that the Torah is mans written response TO god.
"To god" - see above. To who/what? your conscience? the better you? the universe?

I believe in some of those.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't have to believe that Jews were chosen by God anymore than other peoples to do God's will - The Reconstructionists and the Reform jettisoned that concept as well.
You do have to believe in a core set of ethics -(not unlike Catholicism) such as charity, concern for the poor, making the world a better place, lovingkindness, social justice etc etc,
To me (shared by almost every major religion) a version of the Golden Rule. covers all this pretty much.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
and believe in a core set of holiday observances (whether you observe them or not).....You dont have to keep kosher (even though you know you do!)- from a practical perspective many Jews don't.
"As one of the most culturally significant Jewish holidays, Yom Kippur is observed by many secular Jews who may not observe other holidays. Many secular Jews attend synagogue on Yom Kippur—for many secular Jews the High Holy Days are the only recurring times of the year in which they attend synagogue[4]—causing synagogue attendance to soar."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur

My sis and mom only go to mass on Christmas eve.

Yet they both consider themselves to be Catholic.

Maybe I'm just an all or nothing type guy. aka obsessive-compulsive

:)

ps I need a few sunny dry days in a row to scrap and paint my bilco doors!!! maybe tomorrow
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72316 Apr 23, 2014
Sounds like theism mean believing in a god concept:

Full Definition of THEISM

: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of the human race and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the...

Conceptions of God in monotheist, pantheist and panentheist religions – or of the supreme deity in henotheistic religions – can extend to various levels of abstraction:

##as a powerful, human-like, supernatural being, or as the deification of an esoteric, mystical or philosophical entity or category;
##as the "Ultimate", the summum bonum, the "Absolute Infinite", the "Transcendent", or Existence or Being itself;
##as the ground of being, the monistic substrate, that which we cannot understand; and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptions_of_G...

[I wouldn't say I hold with any of the above]
former res

Cheshire, CT

#72317 Apr 23, 2014
The conception of God in Judaism is strictly monotheistic. God is an absolute one, indivisible and incomparable being who is the ultimate cause of all existence. Jewish tradition teaches that the true aspect of God is incomprehensible and unknowable, and that it is only God's revealed aspect that brought the universe into existence, and interacts with mankind and the world. In Judaism, the one God of Israel is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is the guide of the world, delivered Israel from slavery in Egypt, and gave them the 613 Mitzvot at Mount Sinai as described in the Torah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#72318 Apr 23, 2014
CRASS MATERIALISM AND THE LOSS OF FINER FACULTIES

CHARLES DARWIN developed, in his own words, a "curious and lamentable loss of the higher aesthetic tastes."

Charles Darwin expressed this loss in his autobiography:

"I have said in one respect that my mind has changed over the last 20 or 30 years. Up to the age of 30 or beyond it, poetry of many kinds such as the works of Milton, Gray, Byron, Wordsworth, Coleridge and Shelley gave me great pleasure, and even as a school boy, I took intense delight in Shakespeare...I have also said that formerly pictures gave me considerable, and music very great delight. But now for many years, I cannot endure to read to read a line of poetry: I have tried lately to read Shakespeare and found it so intolerably dull that it nauseated me. I've also almost lost my taste for pictures and music....My mind seems to have become a kind of machine for grinding general laws out of a large collection of facts, but why this should have caused the atrophy of that part of the brain alone, on which the higher tastes depend, I cannot conceive....The loss of these tastes is a loss of happiness, and may possibly be injurious to the intellect, and more probably to the moral character, by enfeebling the emotional part of our nature."

JOEL: It's ironic that Darwin should have expressed these thoughts.

LIAM R: The premature death of a beloved child can do that to a man...

JOEL: No. Shouldn't the so-called personal gain of Darwin associated with his crass materialism led him to greater joys?

Death of a child is a "personal loss" to a parent but crass materialism is seen as a "personal gain" by its advocates and so how can "personal loss" due to the death of a near one be compared to a "personal gain" that a crass materialists associates with his philosophy?

Premature death of a child can make a person overly emotional for some time but if the parent is emotionally mature he soon recovers from the shock and carries on with his normal life and with the passage of time the loss of the child usually heals without damaging or petrifying any of the finer faculties of the parent - in fact, on many occasions, grief may bring out greater appreciation of nature, life, relationships, compassion, aesthetics and literature; whereas, on the other hand, crass materialism, in many ways, as seen in the case of Charles Darwin, leads to a life-long state of desensitization/destruction of the finer faculties that's quite different from an overly emotional state associated with the grieving parent that usually endures for some time.

Darwin has given us a good picture of how his finer faculties either got desensitized or atrophied due to his crass materialistic beliefs that begins with dead matter and ends with dead matter and which follow blind mechanistic processes that does not distinguish between a stone and a human being.

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