Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 71944 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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Since: Jan 14

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#67163 Feb 8, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>

'Star Wars' commemorative Big Gulp cups
Go away, ignorant fool.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#67166 Feb 8, 2014
MUSINGS ON KARMA - 1:

Karma is based on the logic of "as you sow, so shall you reap".

In nature, in keeping with Newton's 3rd law of motion, we see action-reaction pairs of forces at work.

Human bodies are subject to wear and tear, diseases and death.

Heredity, decision-making, work-execution, brain states and environmental impulses keep impacting us at all times.

These are not all action-reaction forces but are in most cases natural processes at work.

In the human being, mind is a product of complex neuronal activity.

Mind cognizes and decides and influences the muscles to execute work.

This is karma or action.

Impressions of mental activity and influx of environmental impulses keep molding an individual's mental and bodily processes.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#67167 Feb 8, 2014
MUSINGS ON KARMA - 2:

Good thoughts and soothing surroundings enhance gene expression in positive ways and neuronal networking becomes more harmonious or more effective with the result being greater peace, better relationships, good health and greater efficiency.

On the contrary, harmful thoughts and a disturbing environment create unnecessary stresses in our brain wiring and body cells leading to diseases, unpleasant relationships, lack of peace, impaired judgements, accidents and lowered efficiency.

If we change our pattern of thinking and if we switch to a more harmonious environment, we're benefited at all levels of human existence.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#67168 Feb 8, 2014
MUSINGS ON KARMA -

However, when we say that a man suffers cancer, financial setback, career failure, accident or premature death due to his past bad karma, we're simply being irrational and superstitious.

If at all action and reaction forces are at work in such instances, then, the pair of action-reaction forces work in tandem and are not effected over years. For issuance, if I kick a concrete wall, my foot gets impacted immediately on account of a reaction force acting on it due to the wall being kicked by my foot. If someone insults me in public, my mind may immediately feel hurt if it is sensitive with the brain secreting all kinds of chemicals related to stress and the hurt feeling may carry on for days or even years with thoughts of revenge creeping into my mind. I can act against the person who insulted me by insulting him in future or beating him up or hiring a contract killer to bump him off. This is common enough. But, if the man who humiliated me suffers a financial setback or loses his eyesight or loses his wife in the near future, it's foolish on my part to conclude that his bad karma of insulting me resulted in any or all of these losses. A financial setback, an accident or death of spouse have valid cause-effect explanations independent of the man's karma of insulting me.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#67169 Feb 8, 2014
MUSINGS ON KARMA - 4:

If a person habitually keeps getting angry or is always jealous of others it could only mean that his brain networking is faulty since brain states creates various ordered or disordered states of conscious activity some of which are inherited as specific energy patterns embedded in genes from ancestors and besides environmental impulses may add to or aggravate these personality flaws.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#67170 Feb 8, 2014
MUSINGS ON KARMA - 5:

It is sillier to believe that behavioral causes attributed to past birth manifest as pernicious effects in the present round of existence since upon death the brain-produced consciousness dies out with the death of the neurons and the EMR diffuses out from the open system which is the body into the environment while the body goes back into the earth elements after a time. The diffused EM radiation may merge with a living organism and influence it as part of the process of exchange of energy in open/closed systems or it may scatter in the universal EM field. In rare cases, if the brain-produced consciousness has been powerful enough to persist even after death of the body as a well-formed pattern of EMR then it could get recycled in whole by entering a human being with whose EM field it has affinity and get assimilated or modified as a result.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67174 Feb 9, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I see what you're saying. Like the slut and the prude both being preoccupied with sex. Two sides of the same coin.
But I don't see it that way at all.
The theist believes while the atheist does not.
I see it very simply as the absence of belief. It takes ZERO time to not believe something.
I spend NO TIME being an atheist. I promise you.
But I dont see you as an atheist, I see you as an agnostic.

(open for argument I know)
former res wrote:
<quoted text>What would make you think it takes time to not believe something? This idea boggles my mind.
On the contrary, all that fence sitting and pondering your existence would seem to take quite a bit of time and energy. How much time do you spend with all that?
Call me a pragmatist, an atheist, an agnostic. All ok with me.
And I do practice being a good and decent person. The Golden Rule and so on. That's the best any of us can do.
Though I don't claim to have cured typhoid, AIDS or pneumonia.
I spend little time on the fence worrying. Remember, I was the one a while ago who told you to stop thinking and more time experiencing.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67175 Feb 9, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd like to think you spent more than 'zero time' considering the issue before dedicating yourself to a conviction. I certainly hope you're not one of those 'Dawkins said it, I believe it, end of story' kind of folks.
I observe that even if you spent very little time to arrive at your position; you do seem to dedicate a lot of your time to selling that position to others.
Personally, I find proselytism, even proselytism of the lack of belief rather boorish and ultimately offensive when it won't let up even when there is no receptive audience.
Just sayin'.
Its not that he is selling a position as much as he may be (indirectly) selling that fact that every one HAS a position.

But ultimately FR doesnt really advocate a position, he questions in order to understand your position.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67176 Feb 9, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
So you're saying one has no right to quibble with a label that one has put on himself? That it is only the self who can properly label what he is? That to do so would be hubris?
Does that hold for Messianic Jews as well? Is it ok for them to call themselves Jews? Jews for Jesus etc.
How about Huggy? What's he? Who knows?
What baggage do atheists have - they just don't believe in god - so what?
I would think Jews/Christians/Muslims have a hell of lot more baggage.
I was an agnostic too for many years, until I got off the fence.
Baby steps.
The boundaries between Christianity and Jews is pretty clear cut to most - therefore I would think that for me to say that Jews can reject labels that have meaning only within the internal Christian system is a valid point. Note with the sinner example, I didnt get into self identification.

What I was advancing is the notion that these theistic labels really are rooted in the Christian or Western philosophical system, which is preoccupied with a higher status of belief than the Jewish system, which does not share the importance of these concepts at the same level.(Example given of "emunah" vs "faith')

The Messianic Christianity issue is all who gets the right to self-identify and what to do when that conflicts with socially accepted definitions. Different issue. My position on that is that I dont care on the INDIVIDUAL level WHAT a Messianics call themself (I am not going to tell people what to think about themselves personally- for that would be fascist) but IF they call themselves Jews to the outside world and advertise to the OUTSIDE as if they are Jews, then they should be prepared for pushback by those who hold the keys to that definition. Plus, most Christians (other than Messianics)would probably side with the Jews on the question of definition anyway.

You dont act atheist, you act agnostic. IMO of course.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67177 Feb 9, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
In any case it sounds as though you have the bases covered.
Just in case it's all true.
Thank you for the judgement. It means SO MUCH to me

(friendly sarcasm intended)

:)

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67178 Feb 9, 2014
I see see JOEL has floundered a perfectly good opportunity to earn a GOLD star.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67179 Feb 9, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
WHY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO EXIST AS OBJECTIVE REALITY

3) To equate God with the universe, as the pantheist does, is sheer stupidity since the universe is simply a concentrate of energy/matter in different modes of vibration. Besides, if God is the universe then this God is transient and imperfect like the universe.
Idiot, I never argued strict pantheism. I gave my caveats, and why.

And by the way, who ever said that God has to be perfect? Absolute, yes, but perfect? Where did that baggage come from?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67180 Feb 9, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd like to think you spent more than 'zero time' considering the issue before dedicating yourself to a conviction. I certainly hope you're not one of those 'Dawkins said it, I believe it, end of story' kind of folks.
The key word here being "before." Which is not to say I've never reconsidered my position. Unlike some of us who were born into a faith, I needed a reason to believe, not a reason to not believe.

And if I weren't buying want generations of my own family was selling me, why the hell would I buy what some Brit was selling. I was agnostic for 30+ years before I ever heard of Dawkins/Hitchins/Bill Maher etc.

When a was teenager I asked my mother, "How do you know all this [Catholicism/Christianity] is true?" She responded, "Faith." I think that's about when I got off the train.
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I observe that even if you spent very little time to arrive at your position; you do seem to dedicate a lot of your time to selling that position to others.
Not at all. I ask questions of believers. Conversations.

I make no secret of the fact that religion and its adherents fascinate me.

That billions of people around the world hold beliefs without a shred of evidence....not to mention all the strife.....well I think its goddman interesting.
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally, I find proselytism, even proselytism of the lack of belief rather boorish and ultimately offensive when it won't let up even when there is no receptive audience.
Just sayin'.
BS - no proselytizing.

And look, I just found out Frijoles is an atheist who calls himself an agnostic. That's what I was for years!

Now, how's your Adam-12 going?

"See the man at 1523 Lester Street."
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67181 Feb 9, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But I dont see you as an atheist, I see you as an agnostic.
(open for argument I know)
Very open. It depends what set of definitions are being used.

I don't state there is no god. I state I don't believe in god.
And that it's unknown and unknowable.

Do you agree?
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I spend little time on the fence worrying. Remember, I was the one a while ago who told you to stop thinking and more time experiencing.
On thinking vs experiencing....

What do you call it when you pray or meditate?

Isn't that thinking? or might you say feeling?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67182 Feb 9, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
'Star Wars' commemorative Big Gulp cups
Have fun at Comic Con - when is it?

Too bad about Leonard Nimoy's recent diagnosis/announcement.

He didn't look or sound too good in the recent Start Trek movie. So it didn't surprise me much.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67183 Feb 9, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its not that he is selling a position as much as he may be (indirectly) selling that fact that every one HAS a position.
But ultimately FR doesnt really advocate a position, he questions in order to understand your position.
Thanks very much.

I this stems from admitted intense curiosity on the subject.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67184 Feb 9, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Very open. It depends what set of definitions are being used.
I don't state there is no god. I state I don't believe in god.
And that it's unknown and unknowable.
Do you agree?
Thats been my position.
former res wrote:
<quoted text><quoted text>
On thinking vs experiencing....
What do you call it when you pray or meditate?
Isn't that thinking? or might you say feeling?
I call it (a) practice. Practice (of) connecting.

Ideally, I try integrate a variety of cognitive modes. You might be correct that all cognitive modes are thought, but I differentiate between thinking, visualizing (seeing), emoting (which includes experiencing awe), movement, etc --- all modes of cognition



“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67185 Feb 9, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks very much.
I this stems from admitted intense curiosity on the subject.
I spent about a decade trying to figure out what "holy" meant from my religion.

So simple, so oft used, and yet so complicated to really grasp

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67186 Feb 9, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The key word here being "before." Which is not to say I've never reconsidered my position. Unlike some of us who were born into a faith, I needed a reason to believe, not a reason to not believe.
And if I weren't buying want generations of my own family was selling me, why the hell would I buy what some Brit was selling.
See how much easier it would of been if you were born Jewish? You wouldnt have to worry about faith, only faithfulness.

I dont need a reason to believe, rather I pursue my life in search of the experience of the belief. While searching for the language to express my experience, whatever it may be.

Do you see the difference? In the former one is trying to fit into a box. In the latter, one is creating the box to BEST (but imperfectly) express what you are already perceiving, which is by definition ALWAYS a work in progress.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67187 Feb 9, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The boundaries between Christianity and Jews is pretty clear cut to most - therefore I would think that for me to say that Jews can reject labels that have meaning only within the internal Christian system is a valid point. Note with the sinner example, I didnt get into self identification.
Well this all depends of you POV I suppose.

What's clear cut to you may be a grey area to another. And vice versa. But I agree that you have the right self identify as you see fit. But perhaps so do others as well. You obviously don't have to like it or agree.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
What I was advancing is the notion that these theistic labels really are rooted in the Christian or Western philosophical system, which is preoccupied with a higher status of belief than the Jewish system, which does not share the importance of these concepts at the same level.(Example given of "emunah" vs "faith')
Fair enough.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The Messianic Christianity issue is all who gets the right to self-identify and what to do when that conflicts with socially accepted definitions. Different issue. My position on that is that I dont care on the INDIVIDUAL level WHAT a Messianics call themself (I am not going to tell people what to think about themselves personally- for that would be fascist) but IF they call themselves Jews to the outside world and advertise to the OUTSIDE as if they are Jews, then they should be prepared for pushback by those who hold the keys to that definition. Plus, most Christians (other than Messianics)would probably side with the Jews on the question of definition anyway.
I do also, as I've said on here many times: "If you believe in JC, you ain't Jewish" or something to that effect.

I was only commenting on your "hubris" comment.

Does your position being valid to you (and others like me0 NOT make it hubris to tell others what they are or aren't? Just askin.

And I'm not quite sure what this means: "...those who hold the keys to that definition"
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You dont act atheist, you act agnostic. IMO of course.
And I always felt like one. So I'll ask you the question (credit to CoR):

Are you atheist or agnostic on the Easter Bunny?

Do you have anymore evidence for the existence of God/a deity than you do for the Easter Bunny?

This is part of what made me re-evaluate my position.

But my response was also that this was too important to get wrong and also that I held out hope and would love to be proved wrong. Plus I often enjoy to church , sense of commintiy. the music etc.

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