Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66533
Jan 29, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
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I don't think I said anything bad about hillbillies/cousin fxxkers - did I?
Never heard the version of the command that you refer to. But you can probably correct me all day long anything to do with religion/ the Yiddish language/ the bible etc. Have at it. And I won't even be offended!
Murder is a legal term.
But I would think that religion (as does the law) takes into account "degree and intent."
So, sure killing in self defense or to feed ones family is different than murder. The law allows for this.
Do you believe in revenge killing? It seem Frijoles might.
;)
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm
12 Thou shalt not murder.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

Its the actual translation - not the pop translation you are familiar with.

----------
I dont believe in revenge killing. Again, you misunderstand. Eye for an eye is interpreted as allowing FAIR compensatory damages - i.e. it introduces the concept of torts and monitization - a civilized approach.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66534
Jan 29, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
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But it helps.
Spurious correlation. Many religious folk are not cut in the same cloth as the fundies you are familiar with. COR suffers the same error - lumps everyone in to the same group.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66535
Jan 29, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
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Very smart and eloquent fellow.
I miss him.
I was a bit of Bush fan and I didn't like that
but he spoke very intelligently on many matters.
Some of our greatest geniuses have been drinkers.
Even Rick has a still.
:))
could be argued that they would be even more of a genius had they not be sods

“Act Interdimensional ly”

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#66536
Jan 29, 2014
 
former res wrote:
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...Do you believe in revenge killing? It seem Frijoles might.
;)
"Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid - mostly only when I'm gettin' paid."

-- Jayne Cobb

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#66537
Jan 29, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
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Way harsh.
Way subjective.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>Love thy neighbor.
He's not one of my neighbors...

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#66538
Jan 29, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
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Spurious correlation. Many religious folk are not cut in the same cloth as the fundies you are familiar with. COR suffers the same error - lumps everyone in to the same group.
Not in the least. At no point did I say ALL religious people act similarly. But you cannot deny that religion does have a major influence on many peoples' behavior and decision making. Look no further than our own Bible Belt as well as the GOP, who've made a career out of denying women, gays and other minorities equal rights under the guise of it being sinful.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#66539
Jan 29, 2014
 
former res wrote:
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But you're speaking about individuals vs larger groups of people/nations/armies etc.
I don't that's safe to say at all.
My parents taught me the difference between right and wrong.
The only exception is when I'm buying a car....as in "What would Jesus drive?"
Former--- "What would Jesus drive?"

HughBe--- His chariot of clouds.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#66540
Jan 29, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Very smart and eloquent fellow.
I miss him.
I was a bit of Bush fan and I didn't like that
but he spoke very intelligently on many matters.
Some of our greatest geniuses have been drinkers.
Even Rick has a still.
:))
Former---Some of our greatest geniuses have been drinkers. Even Rick has a still.

HughBe--- The link that you have made explains your lack.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

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#66541
Jan 29, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
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...then we aren't talking about religion, but rather, a form of secular humanism that everyone should sign up to.
But, if I'm not mistaken, I thought Jewish belief involved the idea that the Jews have a special covenant with God, and with that covenant comes certain behavioral requirements. So there ARE biblical imperatives that guide/dictate certain deeds. Certainly, in the bible, when these deeds weren't met, there were negative repercussions via divine intervention.
I see your concept of religion is tainted by Xtianity. Not surprising as you're stepped in a Xtian culture, where all unrepentant sin, even the sin of being born, is punishable by eternal damnation, especially the sin of backing the wrong messiah (just as Virgil).

The Jewish concept of sin is more elegant and subtle. There are sins against G-d and sins against man. There are degrees of sin based on motivation (deliberate, emotion-driven, or accidental) which is from where the concept of degrees of crime are derived in our own legal system. But none of those sins in punishable by eternal damnation in a lake of molten fire. In fact, scripture is completely vague on what is the consequences of a sin in the afterlife, or even what form, if any, the afterlife might take.

There are lots of biblical injunctions in Judaism (613 to be exact). Many of those cannot be followed in modern world (because our Temple was destroyed and yet to be rebuilt)but the concept of Tikkun Olam is not one of them (it is a moral obligation to make the world given to us by G-d a better place if we can). The convenent between G-d and the Jews holds us to follow as many of those as possible and we have dedicated the last 2,000 years to codifying them.

There are lots of stories in scripture about G-d using both positive and negative feedback to steer the Jews into complying with his injunctions but always in this world and not the next. If you take those stories literally then you have to belief that all bad fortune is the consequence of infraction while, inversely, all good fortune is an indication you're doing good. There is precious little evidence to support this theory and, in the scripture, the punishment of the Jews tends to be collective. The good suffer along with the bad.

However, if you look upon scripture as metaphorical, then you can see a different concept. That if we attempt to lead a moral existence and follow the biblical injunctions as well as the moral imperatives, we will be rewarded with a good life. And, for the most part, that's not untrue. Mostly, the quality of life we have is dependent on the decisions we make -- generally speaking. Accidents and bad fortune happen to everyone, good or bad, but very few will argue that those who deliberately seek to do harm to others tend to suffer more than those who don't. Of course there are cases where this isn't true, but, as I said, if we're taking the scripture as a allegory then generally speaking, it holds true.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66542
Jan 29, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Not in the least. At no point did I say ALL religious people act similarly. But you cannot deny that religion does have a major influence on many peoples' behavior and decision making. Look no further than our own Bible Belt as well as the GOP, who've made a career out of denying women, gays and other minorities equal rights under the guise of it being sinful.
Then maybe you should refine your thesis that Christianity has a major influence, or fundamentalist versions of religion....since that is the evidence you are presenting

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66543
Jan 29, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think I said anything bad about hillbillies/cousin fxxkers - did I?
Never heard the version of the command that you refer to. But you can probably correct me all day long anything to do with religion/ the Yiddish language/ the bible etc. Have at it. And I won't even be offended!
Murder is a legal term.
But I would think that religion (as does the law) takes into account "degree and intent."
So, sure killing in self defense or to feed ones family is different than murder. The law allows for this.
Do you believe in revenge killing? It seem Frijoles might.
;)
By the way- speaking of the kill/murder mistranslation issue - there are two other related interesting misconceptions

1) The ten commandments were not commandments - they were "sayings". Thus they were the Ten Sayings (which is how the orthodox Jews and other Hebrew speakers refer to them). Note the verse Exodus 20:1 below - it says spoke, not command....

(Exodus 20:1) And God spoke all these words, saying:......

2) If you actually count all the sayings, there are more than ten. Actually they are 12 or 13 depending if you are a lumper or a splitter.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66544
Jan 29, 2014
 
Rick Moss wrote:
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That if we attempt to lead a moral existence and follow the biblical injunctions as well as the moral imperatives, we will be rewarded with a good life..
To COR:

From the Shema - THE center piece of the liturgy - recited twice a day

"......And you shall inscribe them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates - so that your days and the days of your children may be prolonged on the land which the L-rd swore to your fathers to give to them for as long as the heavens are above the earth...."

Furthermore - Note it is in the plural - so it is not even promising extended individual life, but collective (i.e. tribal life) i.e. survival of the people as a cultural unit

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66545
Jan 29, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
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But sports, arts, etc... don't claim to be the purveyors of objective morality, as many religions do, so I think your trying to compare apples with oranges.
I beg your pardon? How often are youth sports promoted as character building?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66546
Jan 29, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
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Like I said earlier, if one is doing good deeds outside of any imperatives from their faith, then they are exhibiting humanistic qualities, at which point we are no longer talking about religion.
Likewise, if one is doing bad deeds outside of any imperatives from their faith, then they are exhibiting sociopathic, criminal, or some other negative human quality and again, we are no longer talking about religion.
If, however, someone who would normally behave well, is suddenly behaving badly because of some perceived imperative from their faith, then I think it is fair game to attribute that behaviour to their religious beliefs (e.g. Islamic suicide bombers).
Your humanism notion is a side issue to whether religious behavior, in Judaism, is inspired by fear of punishment. I was merely debunking that idea

But if you want to get into the merits of humanism, first you need to consider the merits of ecumenicalism, then branch into humanism. The problem I have with your broad strokes is that they tend to be black and white without appreciating the middle ground.

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#66547
Jan 29, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
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Then maybe you should refine your thesis that Christianity has a major influence, or fundamentalist versions of religion....since that is the evidence you are presenting
Last I checked, there were also Rabbis advocating against gay marriage. This is not strictly a Christian concern, though the Christians seem to hog a lot of the limelight.

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#66548
Jan 29, 2014
 
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I see your concept of religion is tainted by Xtianity. Not surprising as you're stepped in a Xtian culture, where all unrepentant sin, even the sin of being born, is punishable by eternal damnation, especially the sin of backing the wrong messiah (just as Virgil).
The Jewish concept of sin is more elegant and subtle. There are sins against G-d and sins against man. There are degrees of sin based on motivation (deliberate, emotion-driven, or accidental) which is from where the concept of degrees of crime are derived in our own legal system. But none of those sins in punishable by eternal damnation in a lake of molten fire. In fact, scripture is completely vague on what is the consequences of a sin in the afterlife, or even what form, if any, the afterlife might take.
There are lots of biblical injunctions in Judaism (613 to be exact). Many of those cannot be followed in modern world (because our Temple was destroyed and yet to be rebuilt)but the concept of Tikkun Olam is not one of them (it is a moral obligation to make the world given to us by G-d a better place if we can). The convenent between G-d and the Jews holds us to follow as many of those as possible and we have dedicated the last 2,000 years to codifying them.
There are lots of stories in scripture about G-d using both positive and negative feedback to steer the Jews into complying with his injunctions but always in this world and not the next. If you take those stories literally then you have to belief that all bad fortune is the consequence of infraction while, inversely, all good fortune is an indication you're doing good. There is precious little evidence to support this theory and, in the scripture, the punishment of the Jews tends to be collective. The good suffer along with the bad.
However, if you look upon scripture as metaphorical, then you can see a different concept. That if we attempt to lead a moral existence and follow the biblical injunctions as well as the moral imperatives, we will be rewarded with a good life. And, for the most part, that's not untrue. Mostly, the quality of life we have is dependent on the decisions we make -- generally speaking. Accidents and bad fortune happen to everyone, good or bad, but very few will argue that those who deliberately seek to do harm to others tend to suffer more than those who don't. Of course there are cases where this isn't true, but, as I said, if we're taking the scripture as a allegory then generally speaking, it holds true.
In my last post, I moved beyond the concept of hell and was speaking strictly regarding the covenant the Jews made with their god and how that drives behavior and (earthly) punishment. If scripture is to be taken strictly as allegory/metaphor, then why is it necessary to believe in a literal God. Why can't it also be an allegory/metaphor?

So let's cut to the chase. If you somehow came to the realization that God did not exist, would you continue to attempt to live your life in the same moral manner that you do now? If so, then don't the humanistic values you subscribe to suffice? What value does a god add to the equation?

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#66549
Jan 29, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
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Your humanism notion is a side issue to whether religious behavior, in Judaism, is inspired by fear of punishment. I was merely debunking that idea
But if you want to get into the merits of humanism, first you need to consider the merits of ecumenicalism, then branch into humanism. The problem I have with your broad strokes is that they tend to be black and white without appreciating the middle ground.
What specifically is broad strokes about favoring humanism over religion as a moral decision making tool?

Ecumenicalism would be one approach to getting us to secular humanism, but not the most direct approach since it will undoubtedly carry a lot of baggage along.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66550
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Cult of Reason wrote:
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Last I checked, there were also Rabbis advocating against gay marriage. This is not strictly a Christian concern, though the Christians seem to hog a lot of the limelight.
So its a fundamentalist-extremist issue, which is arguably not even a religious issue.

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#66551
Jan 29, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
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In my last post, I moved beyond the concept of hell and was speaking strictly regarding the covenant the Jews made with their god and how that drives behavior and (earthly) punishment. If scripture is to be taken strictly as allegory/metaphor, then why is it necessary to believe in a literal God. Why can't it also be an allegory/metaphor?
Almost 98% of most Jews today, those with Jewish educations that surpass 7th grade, believe or follow any of a plethora of God models that are far from the literal man in the sky that you have inherited from your Christian background. And almost NONE follow mitzvot as an response to reward/punishment. More commonly, they do it to realize spiritual connection, or as they say in Hebrew, to obtain kedushah.
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>So let's cut to the chase. If you somehow came to the realization that God did not exist, would you continue to attempt to live your life in the same moral manner that you do now? If so, then don't the humanistic values you subscribe to suffice? What value does a god add to the equation?
The path of life, for the religious, is not only to enact moral behaviors (i.e. actions between man), but to enact religious behaviors (i.e. acts of devotion, praise, yearning, and connection). Those are intangibles, and obvious not what you value. No one has posited that religion is the sole source of morals. But for those who seek a lifestyle deeper than just following moral precepts, its a viable alternative.

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#66552
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Cult of Reason wrote:
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What specifically is broad strokes about favoring humanism over religion as a moral decision making tool?
Ecumenicalism would be one approach to getting us to secular humanism, but not the most direct approach since it will undoubtedly carry a lot of baggage along.
again you are ASSUMING that evolution (in thinking) will lead us to secular humanism. Actual history, past and present, has evidenced otherwise. There are middle paths too.

Furthermore, as posted above, not everyone lives in their head, many or most people live in their hearts as well. Secular Humanism provides zippo in that direction.

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