Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#61893
Nov 4, 2013
 
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
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Mockery doesn't solve the purpose; on the contrary, it may aggravate the atmosphere since the other person involved in the debate may think that you're not serious in debating the issue in depth and seeing it from various angles including his own and so he may be put off and so mockery could create misunderstanding.
Mockery should be used sparingly.
If the other person cannot see the light of reason despite giving him the entire logic supported by evidence, well, then, you can't do anything and so better tell him to be free to follow what he wishes to without imposing his ideas or thoughts on others since the evidence doesn't support his views and wrap up the debate at that point. But, always keep communication lines open with him and if he at some point has a rethink then analyze what he has to say and further the debate from there by closely analyzing his point for what it's worth.
I guess the sarcasm of my post flew over your head

Its ok.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#61894
Nov 4, 2013
 
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
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Scripture does worse than merely calling homosexuality a disease.
Scriptures like the Tanach and Quran outright call homosexuality a "perversion" or an "evil doing" and condemn homosexuals to death by stoning or by some other horrific method.
There are more passages in the Jewish text that admonish against eating non-kosher than homosexuality.

But yet, many fundamentalists, who lack both Hebrew language skills and the ability to appreciate perspective, harp on the gay citations, and still eat shrimp.

Since: May 13

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#61895
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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In fact, from what I figure, the closest his Christian scripture gets to addressing homosexuality is when it tells you to "turn the other cheek". Hardly an admonition.
NT is filled with contradictions.

On the one hand, the NT advises believers to turn the other cheek, to let go of revenge since an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth would make the whole world blind, to love/pray for one's enemies and to forgive 70 times 7 but on the other hand it curses non-believers and threatens them with hell fire and insists that salvation lies only through Jesus and calls for the death of anyone rejecting Christ....

There are many other contradictory statements that I can point out to you in the NT.

So, well, I take its teachings with a ton of salt since most of its teachings have a fanatical agenda underlying them and its goodwill and love are conditional.

In many ways, the NT is a barbarous book and Jesus was not a man of peace.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#61896
Nov 4, 2013
 
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
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But, always keep communication lines open with him and if he at some point has a rethink then analyze what he has to say and further the debate from there by closely analyzing his point for what it's worth.
Every few months he says something funny.

But he pushes the same views now as he did when he first appeared. Not very much evolution on his part. If anything, he has gotten more angry. Maybe that is a reaction to his domestic life. Maybe that is a reaction to us. Either way, it is sad.

Our experience with religious homophobes here in the US is that they are often gay but repressed, until they realize enough is enough. Then they go public. In a big way.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#61897
Nov 4, 2013
 
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
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NT is filled with contradictions.
On the one hand, the NT advises believers to turn the other cheek, to let go of revenge since an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth would make the whole world blind, to love/pray for one's enemies and to forgive 70 times 7 but on the other hand it curses non-believers and threatens them with hell fire and insists that salvation lies only through Jesus and calls for the death of anyone rejecting Christ....
There are many other contradictory statements that I can point out to you in the NT.
So, well, I take its teachings with a ton of salt since most of its teachings have a fanatical agenda underlying them and its goodwill and love are conditional.
In many ways, the NT is a barbarous book and Jesus was not a man of peace.
To be fair, what you call the OT has as many contradictions. Its the application that matters. And why Jews have an oral tradition as well - to bring some order and make the value system livable.

"Turning the othe cheek" - that was a blatant play on words. Not even an acknowledgement? I am hurt - it was probably one of my better ideas in a while.

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#61898
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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Tanach doesnt really say that. Your Christianized western translation of the tanach says that. Stoning isnt even in the English translations, dunno where that came from
The main point to note is that whatever be the method of capital punishment, the Tanach says that a homosexual should be put to death.

This is what I wish to highlight - that the Tanach calls for the death of homosexuals.

Stoning to death was a common practice in those days.

Tanach condemns homosexuality and calls for the death of homosexuals.

The method of putting a homosexual to death could be stoning, beheading or any other method which is besides the point.

Obviously, Hugh has picked up his hideous ideas regarding homosexuality from the teachings of the Tanach. This much is clear.

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#61899
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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I guess the sarcasm of my post flew over your head

Its ok.
Your mockery serves no purpose except that it shows you in a poor light.

People usually resort to sarcasm or mockery when they have little logic to offer or when they are not serious.

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#61900
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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There are more passages in the Jewish text that admonish against eating non-kosher than homosexuality.
Yes.

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#61901
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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But yet, many fundamentalists, who lack both Hebrew language skills and the ability to appreciate perspective, harp on the gay citations, and still eat shrimp.
Eating shrimp is a minor violation of mitzvot and calls for makkot or lashes but homosexuality is considered with revulsion and is like breaking the shabbat considered heinous enough to put the homosexual to death.

This is the difference - major enough.

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#61902
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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To be fair, what you call the OT has as many contradictions.
NT is an improvement on the Tanach in key philosophical terms like for instance its reference to nondualism that is far superior to the monolatry and dualism of the Tanach and in some other areas like mindless rituals the NT shows a more more sensible than a rigid approach.

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#61903
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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Our experience with religious homophobes here in the US is that they are often gay but repressed, until they realize enough is enough. Then they go public. In a big way.
It's not always true that the biggest homophobes are gay.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#61904
Nov 4, 2013
 
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
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Eating shrimp is a minor violation of mitzvot and calls for makkot or lashes but homosexuality is considered with revulsion and is like breaking the shabbat considered heinous enough to put the homosexual to death.
This is the difference - major enough.
Not true. The passage is usually translated as "(he) surely put to death" but a closer reading of the passage in the native language reveals that it is in third person - i.e. it is not necessarily directed at the transgressor - its equally directed at the action - i.e. the action will lead to death (kind of like your evolutionary spin on things)- plus its in the plural..

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#61905
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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To be fair, what you call the OT has as many contradictions. Its the application that matters. And why Jews have an oral tradition as well - to bring some order and make the value system livable.
That is why we have the Talmud with its stress on Mishnah and Gemara.

I question several interpretations since to know the ethos and the perspective of a particular teaching from Torah one would have to have the consciousness of Moshe who revealed it to us and so the exact essence gets lost in oral rendition and in interpretations...I'll rather go straight to the source than listen to the comments given by immature intermediaries...

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#61906
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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"Turning the other cheek" - that was a blatant play on words. Not even an acknowledgement? I am hurt - it was probably one of my better ideas in a while.
I have a funnier take - Hey, I have turned both my cheeks to you to hit and now I have no more cheeks to turn! LOL.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#61907
Nov 4, 2013
 
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
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It's not always true that the biggest homophobes are gay.
I agree. But with the "publically" religious it happens a lot.

And in the case of Hughbe, where every other reference is to sex, it is a given. The boy is crying, SCREAMING, for help.

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#61908
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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But he pushes the same views now as he did when he first appeared. Not very much evolution on his part. If anything, he has gotten more angry.
No, no, that's a wrong evaluation of Hugh.

Hugh has evolved in some ways and become more mature, mellowed, become more poised and learned a lot by coming online and talking to posters, here.

This is very evident to me.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#61909
Nov 4, 2013
 
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
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Eating shrimp is a minor violation of mitzvot and calls for makkot or lashes but homosexuality is considered with revulsion and is like breaking the shabbat considered heinous enough to put the homosexual to death.
This is the difference - major enough.
the commentary notes that NEITHER punishment was ever enacted. This is where perspective comes in.

The working application of the tanach (i.e. the Talmud) does not proscribe either penalty for either situation either. On the other hand, there is no shortgage of penalties for other offenses.(Understanding, of course, that the Hughbes of the world dont bother to read the commentaries..)

A more balanced interpretation of the text, in my opinion, is that there are some uncomfortable allusions, but on the whole, native followers (i,e. mos mainstream Jews) normally dont run with these towards the most negative applications like the fundamentalists do.

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#61910
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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Maybe that is a reaction to his domestic life.
His problem could be could financial.

He's not well off in any way and knows nothing about luxury or about the high life.

Well, anyway, it doesn't matter.

Hope he progresses on all fronts.

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#61911
Nov 4, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
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i.e. it is not necessarily directed at the transgressor - its equally directed at the action - i.e. the action will lead to death
Either way, it is the death rap for the homo.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#61912
Nov 4, 2013
 
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
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That is why we have the Talmud with its stress on Mishnah and Gemara.
I question several interpretations since to know the ethos and the perspective of a particular teaching from Torah one would have to have the consciousness of Moshe who revealed it to us and so the exact essence gets lost in oral rendition and in interpretations...I'll rather go straight to the source than listen to the comments given by immature intermediaries...
If you have a direct line to Moshe, great. Most of us don't, so we have to settle.

Settling isnt such a bad thing, though, IMO. Most of the time the elders have already analyzed and debated all (or most of the) angles, saving time.

Thank you for discussing this in a human manner, by the way. See, we should talk more often.

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