School Board Budget $46.8M! Will resu...
Kat

Johnson City, TN

#336 Jul 10, 2014
I urge you to try David Berliner's "Thought Exercise". You can find it by clicking this link:

http://dianeravitch.net/2014/01/21/david-berl...
wow

Greeneville, TN

#337 Jul 12, 2014
Kat wrote:
Here is an interesting article on Stanford's webpage about using student test scores for teacher evaluation. Read the article in it's entirety pay close attention to the information under the heading "Outside Factors". Here is a statement from that section. "Haertel cites research estimating that out-of-school elements account for 60 percent of the variance in student scores while the influence of teachers was responsible for around 9 percent." Knowing this, does it seem fair to you? Read that again...out-if-school elements account for a whopping 60 percent of the variance in test scores. The influence of teachers is around 9 percent. Would you want to be held accountable for something you have 9 percent control over? Please read the rest of the article. https://ed.stanford.edu/news/do-student-test-...
WOW! Now we know why homeschoolers get a better education. So Kirk raised my taxes when teachers only add 9% influence on their educational success. Honey, you said it not me, but it sure makes sense why our children are not getting the education they need. I BELIEVE you stepped in it and, God love you, you are trying desperately to backtrack. Sorry, the damage has been done and thanks for enlightening us.
Kat

Johnson City, TN

#338 Jul 12, 2014
wow wrote:
<quoted text>
WOW! Now we know why homeschoolers get a better education. So Kirk raised my taxes when teachers only add 9% influence on their educational success. Honey, you said it not me, but it sure makes sense why our children are not getting the education they need. I BELIEVE you stepped in it and, God love you, you are trying desperately to backtrack. Sorry, the damage has been done and thanks for enlightening us.
You obviously didn't read everything I said. Or the article I referred to. That's a pity. Go back and read before commenting so you don't appear foolish. I also said in some cases homeschooled children get as good of an education if not better. Does this mean our teachers are not working hard or doing a good job? Not in the least. Think about it. If I homeschool my children, how many children do I have to focus on? As a teacher, how many students are in the classroom? If a parent is knowledgeable about child development (at the very least the development of their own children), understands a little about brain based learning, has patience, is self disciplined and has disciplined children, and is organized, yes, that parent may do a great job homeschooling. I have seen it work. I have also seen the opposite. Parents who think they know how to teach and end up getting their child further behind. It is a case by case decision and many factors have to be taken into account. I know I considered it for my own children, not because I felt the teachers were lacking, but because I thought my children needed more individualized attention than the teacher could provide. I decided against it mainly because I do not have the patience or the organization. It is a huge responsibility. Back to the 9%, if you have trouble understanding the article I will repeat the story I said earlier. Two of my own children have learning difficulties. I help them with homework each night. I have open communication with teachers. I go to the state website to prep them for TCAPs. We discuss how important it is for them to do their best and I double my efforts to make sure the have adequate sleep during the week of the tests, and eat well. It never fails. Neither have the ability to sit for the duration of the test. Any child suffering from ADHD or having sensory issues will have difficulty. After the first 30 minutes they lose focus. They lack the stamina. The need a break and the test does not allow for one unless they have an IEP. When they lose focus they begin answering questions randoming, sometimes without reading the questions, much as you responded to my post without fully reading my posts or reading the article I was referring to. I know what my child knows. The test does not reflect what my child knows, nor does it reflect the work their teachers have done to prepare them for it. And this is with my help. Many children have no parents at home who help. They most likely do worse than mine. The test reflects very little of the time and effort the teacher puts in. what about the child in 6th grade who is on a 1st grade reading level and ends the year on a 3rd or 4th. Does this test reflect the time and effort the teacher and student put in? NO. That child will still score as nonproficient. Please go back and read my posts and the articles I post before responding. I will simplify if needed, but I am tiring of having to dumb things down for people like you who respond without thought.
Kat

Johnson City, TN

#339 Jul 12, 2014
wow wrote:
<quoted text>
WOW! Now we know why homeschoolers get a better education. So Kirk raised my taxes when teachers only add 9% influence on their educational success. Honey, you said it not me, but it sure makes sense why our children are not getting the education they need. I BELIEVE you stepped in it and, God love you, you are trying desperately to backtrack. Sorry, the damage has been done and thanks for enlightening us.
Sigh. Let me give you this analogy. You are a farmer. You work hard, very hard. Your soil isn't the best, so all year you work trying to improve it. The seed you have isn't the best quality, but you do your best. There is a drought that year and your crops receive little water. You try to make up for it, watering your crops as much as you can, but watering costs extra. The fertilizer you have to purchase to get the soil prepared cost. You have a insect infestation and have to buy insecticide. Also costing more. Lots of rabbits in the area as well as birds who eat what little crop you are able to grow. You double your efforts to fight against these critters. At harvest you have little to show. How much does the harvest reflect your hard work? Very little. For the sake of argument we will say 9%. What it reflects more is the conditions of the land, the weather, etc. Your friend in the next county over is fortunate enough to have very fertile soil. He has to do very little to it. He has good seed. The weather is a little better there so he isn't watering it as much. Not near as many critters on his farm. Harvest time comes and guess what? He has 10 fold the crop that you do. He hasn't worked nearly as hard. Based on his crop can you determine that he is a better farmer? What percentage of his crop reflects his work? Now do you understand what was meant by the 9%?
I bet

Greeneville, TN

#340 Jul 12, 2014
Kat wrote:
Here is an interesting article on Stanford's webpage about using student test scores for teacher evaluation. Read the article in it's entirety pay close attention to the information under the heading "Outside Factors". Here is a statement from that section. "Haertel cites research estimating that out-of-school elements account for 60 percent of the variance in student scores while the influence of teachers was responsible for around 9 percent." Knowing this, does it seem fair to you? Read that again...out-if-school elements account for a whopping 60 percent of the variance in test scores. The influence of teachers is around 9 percent. Would you want to be held accountable for something you have 9 percent control over? Please read the rest of the article. https://ed.stanford.edu/news/do-student-test-...
I bet you wish you could put this back in the bag so to speak. You screwed up royally and this has already been copied on some twitter posts.
I bet

Greeneville, TN

#341 Jul 12, 2014
Kat wrote:
<quoted text>
You obviously didn't read everything I said. Or the article I referred to. That's a pity. Go back and read before commenting so you don't appear foolish. I also said in some cases homeschooled children get as good of an education if not better. Does this mean our teachers are not working hard or doing a good job? Not in the least. Think about it. If I homeschool my children, how many children do I have to focus on? As a teacher, how many students are in the classroom? If a parent is knowledgeable about child development (at the very least the development of their own children), understands a little about brain based learning, has patience, is self disciplined and has disciplined children, and is organized, yes, that parent may do a great job homeschooling. I have seen it work. I have also seen the opposite. Parents who think they know how to teach and end up getting their child further behind. It is a case by case decision and many factors have to be taken into account. I know I considered it for my own children, not because I felt the teachers were lacking, but because I thought my children needed more individualized attention than the teacher could provide. I decided against it mainly because I do not have the patience or the organization. It is a huge responsibility. Back to the 9%, if you have trouble understanding the article I will repeat the story I said earlier. Two of my own children have learning difficulties. I help them with homework each night. I have open communication with teachers. I go to the state website to prep them for TCAPs. We discuss how important it is for them to do their best and I double my efforts to make sure the have adequate sleep during the week of the tests, and eat well. It never fails. Neither have the ability to sit for the duration of the test. Any child suffering from ADHD or having sensory issues will have difficulty. After the first 30 minutes they lose focus. They lack the stamina. The need a break and the test does not allow for one unless they have an IEP. When they lose focus they begin answering questions randoming, sometimes without reading the questions, much as you responded to my post without fully reading my posts or reading the article I was referring to. I know what my child knows. The test does not reflect what my child knows, nor does it reflect the work their teachers have done to prepare them for it. And this is with my help. Many children have no parents at home who help. They most likely do worse than mine. The test reflects very little of the time and effort the teacher puts in. what about the child in 6th grade who is on a 1st grade reading level and ends the year on a 3rd or 4th. Does this test reflect the time and effort the teacher and student put in? NO. That child will still score as nonproficient. Please go back and read my posts and the articles I post before responding. I will simplify if needed, but I am tiring of having to dumb things down for people like you who respond without thought.
Sounding so desperate! Kinda ridiculous. You already educated us dummies on the 9% post. LMAO
Banjo Knees

Asheville, NC

#342 Jul 12, 2014
I bet wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet you wish you could put this back in the bag so to speak. You screwed up royally and this has already been copied on some twitter posts.
she is the only one making any sense on here. I understand completely her point. Here's a thought. Read those articles, read her posts, and comment on the topic instead of posting complete nonsense. What are you afraid of? That you can't debate her?
Banjo Knees

Asheville, NC

#343 Jul 12, 2014
I bet wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounding so desperate! Kinda ridiculous. You already educated us dummies on the 9% post. LMAO
Hallelujah! Its about time you were educated on something. I agree, she made that quite clear. Took you a little while to catch on, but glad you finally understood her point. I personally have no idea what threw you off, but I read the article. I didn't need her to continue to dumb it down to your level. I personally liked the last analogy the best. I completely understand that with so many other factors involved that the teacher has no control over the tcap test is a poor measure of how well a teacher has taught the material. In fact I think this post is a perfect example. She has explained the findings in the article over and over and to the level that a kindergarten child could understand. Yet the main point of it still escaped the grasp of comprehension. Is that her fault? I don't think so. I thought she made her point quite clear. The fault lies with you. But glad you finally caught on.
nine percent no raises

Greeneville, TN

#344 Jul 12, 2014
Kat wrote:
Here is an interesting article on Stanford's webpage about using student test scores for teacher evaluation. Read the article in it's entirety pay close attention to the information under the heading "Outside Factors". Here is a statement from that section. "Haertel cites research estimating that out-of-school elements account for 60 percent of the variance in student scores while the influence of teachers was responsible for around 9 percent." Knowing this, does it seem fair to you? Read that again...out-if-school elements account for a whopping 60 percent of the variance in test scores. The influence of teachers is around 9 percent. Would you want to be held accountable for something you have 9 percent control over? Please read the rest of the article. https://ed.stanford.edu/news/do-student-test-...
When liberals keep trying to "educate us all" they always end up stepping in their own sh!+.
Kat

Johnson City, TN

#345 Jul 12, 2014
nine percent no raises wrote:
<quoted text>
When liberals keep trying to "educate us all" they always end up stepping in their own sh!+.
Yet you refuse to debate the topic. You want to continue to toss in red herrings to keep the argument off course. Go back and read my posts and discuss the ideas involved in them. Such as is it fair to use a test designed to measure knowledge of student material to evaluate teachers, when the test wasn't designed as a tool to measure teacher effectiveness. The TCAP can only measure what a student knows, and it even does this ineffectively. Being a multiple choice test there is a "guess factor" built in. The TCAP cannot effectively measure student growth from one year to the next. Even using a value added model, which by the way was developed to be used on cattle and the use of tests to evaluate individual teachers has not been scientifically validated. Going back to the illustration I used earlier, what about the sixth grade student who starts the year out reading on a second grade level and ends the year reading on a fourth or fifth grade level. Obviously both she and her teacher have worked their tails off. Yet on the TCAP she still scores nonproficient. It doesn't matter if she made two year gains or one month gains. She is still non proficient. How does this show the effectiveness of the teacher? Teachers in low socio economic areas will always continue to have students with low test scores and teachers in high socio economic areas will always continue to have high test scores. This does not measure teacher effectiveness.
Kat

Johnson City, TN

#346 Jul 12, 2014
Banjo Knees wrote:
<quoted text>
she is the only one making any sense on here. I understand completely her point. Here's a thought. Read those articles, read her posts, and comment on the topic instead of posting complete nonsense. What are you afraid of? That you can't debate her?
Agreed! I have decided that instead of trying to explain the same thing over and over I am just going to copy and past my old posts when I reply to this idiot. I have to ask myself is she trying to be this stupid? Or should I just have more patience with her? I would think if she had any intelligence she would debate my posts instead of trying to bait me into a nonsensical argument.
Kat

Johnson City, TN

#347 Jul 12, 2014
wow wrote:
<quoted text>
WOW! Now we know why homeschoolers get a better education. So Kirk raised my taxes when teachers only add 9% influence on their educational success. Honey, you said it not me, but it sure makes sense why our children are not getting the education they need. I BELIEVE you stepped in it and, God love you, you are trying desperately to backtrack. Sorry, the damage has been done and thanks for enlightening us.
Hopefully you can comprehend this quote, but if not please let me know so I can attempt "dumb it down" for you.

"Valerie Strauss reported in the Washington Post in April that “the American Statistical Association (ASA) just slammed the high-stakes value-added method of evaluating teachers that has been increasingly embraced in states as part of school-reform efforts.”

“These formulas can’t actually do this with sufficient reliability and validity, but school reformers have pushed this approach… Because math and English test scores are available, reformers have devised bizarre implementation methods in which teachers are assessed on the test scores of students they don’t have or subjects they don’t teach.”

“Assessment experts have been saying for years that this is an unfair way to evaluate anybody, especially for high-stakes purposes such as pay, employment status, tenure or even the very survival of a school…Now the statisticians have come out with recommendations for the use of VAM for teachers, principals and schools.” Here’s part of the ASA statement:

VAMs are generally based on standardized test scores and do not directly measure potential teacher contributions toward other student outcomes.

VAMs typically measure correlation, not causation: Effects – positive or negative – attributed to a teacher may actually be caused by other factors that are not captured in the model."

Did you catch that? "VAMs typically measure correlation, not causation: Effects – positive or negative – attributed to a teacher may actually be caused by other factors that are not captured in the model." Back to your misguided 9% idea. Neither I nor the article stated that a teacher only had a 9% effect on student learning. The article said "out-of-school elements account for 60 percent of the variance in student scores while the influence of teachers was responsible for around 9 percent." The influence of teachers is responsible for 9 percent of the variance in student scores. If the test was designed to measure teacher effectiveness, then the influence of teachers would account for 100% of the variance in student scores. Even 80% would be good. Then the test would be a good indicator of teacher effectiveness. What the article is saying is that the test is not designed to test teacher effectiveness. Very much like the illustration I used earlier about grocery bills and healthy eating habits. I cannot accurately measure whether or not you have healthy eating habits by your food bill. Even though healthy foods cost more, there are other factors involved the amount you spend on food, such as where you shop, size of family, etc. So you could say that your healthy eating habits would have maybe a 9% variance on your food bill. To get a more accurate measure of your eating habits you would have to find a more effective way to measure them. Just as if the influence of teachers is responsible for only a 9 percent variance in test scores, we need to find a better way to measure the influence of teachers. I listed some ideas above. I challenge you to think of some for yourself.
Banjo Knees

Greer, SC

#348 Jul 13, 2014
I bet wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet you wish you could put this back in the bag so to speak. You screwed up royally and this has already been copied on some twitter posts.
twitter posts? LMAO! How much more juvenile can you be? Go ahead and twitter away. Hopefully you also included the link to the website so that your more intelligent twitter followers can read the article and understand. LMAO! How much more simpler can she make that? Go ahead and keep posting your ignorance on here. It keeps me humored to see how wise you try to portray yourself when you can't even comprehend a simple article! Amazing! SMH! Still, after all her efforts to explain it to you, you still do not understand? Keep these posts coming!!! What's your twitter name? I want to follow you! I'll have to sign up or use my high school daughters account but it will be worth it!
Banjo Knees

Greer, SC

#349 Jul 13, 2014
I bet wrote:
<quoted text>
I bet you wish you could put this back in the bag so to speak. You screwed up royally and this has already been copied on some twitter posts.
Very telling though how you tiptoe around Kat's arguments and try to trip her up with your faulty misunderstandings. I commend you Mrs. Kat for staying on topic!
nine percent

Greeneville, TN

#350 Jul 13, 2014
Kat wrote:
Here is an interesting article on Stanford's webpage about using student test scores for teacher evaluation. Read the article in it's entirety pay close attention to the information under the heading "Outside Factors". Here is a statement from that section. "Haertel cites research estimating that out-of-school elements account for 60 percent of the variance in student scores while the influence of teachers was responsible for around 9 percent." Knowing this, does it seem fair to you? Read that again...out-if-school elements account for a whopping 60 percent of the variance in test scores. The influence of teachers is around 9 percent. Would you want to be held accountable for something you have 9 percent control over? Please read the rest of the article. https://ed.stanford.edu/news/do-student-test-...
9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9%

Please don't ask for more benefits and raises from the hard working tax payers. Like Ever!
nine percent

Greeneville, TN

#351 Jul 13, 2014
Banjo Knees wrote:
<quoted text>
Very telling though how you tiptoe around Kat's arguments and try to trip her up with your faulty misunderstandings. I commend you Mrs. Kat for staying on topic!
9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9%

Please see your earlier "post of knowledge". That's what happens when you think you are smarter than everyone else by quoting everyone under the sun. My dear, you are void of a thought of your own.
Kat

Johnson City, TN

#352 Jul 13, 2014
nine percent wrote:
<quoted text>
9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9%
Please see your earlier "post of knowledge". That's what happens when you think you are smarter than everyone else by quoting everyone under the sun. My dear, you are void of a thought of your own.
I posted researched evidence. This is what people do when they are trying to look for the truth. That research that you neglected to read before you quoted. Therefore you quoted out of context and made yourself look like a complete idiot. How embarrassing for you. You are nothing more than a troll, adding nothing of value to the topic. But hey, if that's what you aspire to be, go for it. Keep trolling. I rather get a kick out of it.
Kat

Johnson City, TN

#354 Jul 13, 2014
nine percent wrote:
<quoted text>
9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9%
Please don't ask for more benefits and raises from the hard working tax payers. Like Ever!
I do appreciate you reposting the link to my article each time your comment on it. This makes it easier for others to read it. I find it hard to believe any intelligent person could read it and not understand what a 9% variance in scores means. The article is quite clear. Again, I encourage you to read it before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have. Then maybe we can discuss these issues intelligently.
loving this

Bristol, TN

#355 Jul 14, 2014
nine percent wrote:
<quoted text>
9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9% 9%
Please don't ask for more benefits and raises from the hard working tax payers. Like Ever!
I am loving thissssssss! Finally a teacher tells the truth, accidentally I am sure, and now they are hyperventilating because they can't take it back. I am surprised their research showed even 9% because my daughter sure has some ignorant teachers.
loving this

Bristol, TN

#356 Jul 14, 2014
Kat wrote:
<quoted text>
Hopefully you can comprehend this quote, but if not please let me know so I can attempt "dumb it down" for you.
"Valerie Strauss reported in the Washington Post in April that “the American Statistical Association (ASA) just slammed the high-stakes value-added method of evaluating teachers that has been increasingly embraced in states as part of school-reform efforts.”
“These formulas can’t actually do this with sufficient reliability and validity, but school reformers have pushed this approach… Because math and English test scores are available, reformers have devised bizarre implementation methods in which teachers are assessed on the test scores of students they don’t have or subjects they don’t teach.”
“Assessment experts have been saying for years that this is an unfair way to evaluate anybody, especially for high-stakes purposes such as pay, employment status, tenure or even the very survival of a school…Now the statisticians have come out with recommendations for the use of VAM for teachers, principals and schools.” Here’s part of the ASA statement:
VAMs are generally based on standardized test scores and do not directly measure potential teacher contributions toward other student outcomes.
VAMs typically measure correlation, not causation: Effects – positive or negative – attributed to a teacher may actually be caused by other factors that are not captured in the model."
Did you catch that? "VAMs typically measure correlation, not causation: Effects – positive or negative – attributed to a teacher may actually be caused by other factors that are not captured in the model." Back to your misguided 9% idea. Neither I nor the article stated that a teacher only had a 9% effect on student learning. The article said "out-of-school elements account for 60 percent of the variance in student scores while the influence of teachers was responsible for around 9 percent." The influence of teachers is responsible for 9 percent of the variance in student scores. If the test was designed to measure teacher effectiveness, then the influence of teachers would account for 100% of the variance in student scores. Even 80% would be good. Then the test would be a good indicator of teacher effectiveness. What the article is saying is that the test is not designed to test teacher effectiveness. Very much like the illustration I used earlier about grocery bills and healthy eating habits. I cannot accurately measure whether or not you have healthy eating habits by your food bill. Even though healthy foods cost more, there are other factors involved the amount you spend on food, such as where you shop, size of family, etc. So you could say that your healthy eating habits would have maybe a 9% variance on your food bill. To get a more accurate measure of your eating habits you would have to find a more effective way to measure them. Just as if the influence of teachers is responsible for only a 9 percent variance in test scores, we need to find a better way to measure the influence of teachers. I listed some ideas above. I challenge you to think of some for yourself.
I really cannot stop laughing. Me thinks you protest to much. LMAO Calm down, we got the 9% the first time. Teachers don't want to be held accountable for anything and yet you want more money. That sure is not how it works at my job.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Greeneville Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
who got shot on fish pond rd tonight 1 min Dad 6
Obama declares gaybar a National Monument 2 min Kohlrabi 19
Steven dunbar 3 min busted 2
Trump and G'vegas 6 min Kohlrabi 18
Mother going crazy! 7 min Binary 17
fun thing to do ***Keep a Word~Drop a Word*** (Sep '10) 13 min Princess Hey 9,724
Elwood - new temp staffing place (Jan '12) 52 min Big guy 20
More from around the web

Personal Finance

Greeneville Mortgages