Scarlett Pimple

Jamestown, TN

#76217 Apr 13, 2013
Pete wrote:
<quoted text> We have been on a tax and spend philosophy for the past 5 years with no positive results.
To be honest, weve been on a tax and spend philosophy for the last 50 years, and it transcends parties. It started to get out of control under Bush, and Obama has no concept of the words fiscal responsibility.
Pete wrote:
<quoted text> We are now taxing at historic levels
And it isnt enough.
Pete wrote:
<quoted text> I realize a lot of people on here no longer work due to retirement or whatever other reason and rely on a fixed income that probably consists mostly of social security. But the ideology ruling our economic destiny right now is actually hurting what the people depending on SS consider dire to their needs - preserving that monthly SS income. SS invests in US Treasuries with the payments coming into the system. What growth have we had on US Treasuries over the past several years? If we spend more than we take in consistently, the only way to pay our bills is to print money. But what happens, when the dollar starts devaluing and inflation starts going sky high? The Fed will stop printing money. Then what happens? Austerity like you've never seen will be forced upon us. Just look at Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal for great examples of this.
The pink elephant in the room that everyone is ignoring is that interest rates have been kept at ridiculously low rates for a very long time. At some point, they are going to rise, and when they do, we will be in a heapatrouble.
Overtaxed

Thorn Hill, TN

#76218 Apr 13, 2013
Pete wrote:
There sure seems to be a lot of Republican bashing on here lately. I realize that any defense I make for Republicans on a Topix thread will fall on deaf ears, but while all this bashing is going on, this week it was officially announced total average government spending per household has exceeded average household income, tax revenues are projected to be at an all time high in 2013, the consumer confidence index has taken a nosedive, retail sales have slacked off to 2008 levels, etc.
We have been on a tax and spend philosophy for the past 5 years with no positive results. So what do some of the posters on here want to do? How about more of the same and hope for different results? Does no one see the problem with this way of thinking? And I have already heard that the Republican congress is keeping Obama from doing what he wants to do, but he has done exactly what he wants to do for the past few years. We are now spending more and taxing more at historic levels with no improvement whatsoever in spite of having a Republican controlled congress. Imagine the predicament we would be in with a democrat controlled house and senate?
I realize a lot of people on here no longer work due to retirement or whatever other reason and rely on a fixed income that probably consists mostly of social security. But the ideology ruling our economic destiny right now is actually hurting what the people depending on SS consider dire to their needs - preserving that monthly SS income. SS invests in US Treasuries with the payments coming into the system. What growth have we had on US Treasuries over the past several years? If we spend more than we take in consistently, the only way to pay our bills is to print money. But what happens, when the dollar starts devaluing and inflation starts going sky high? The Fed will stop printing money. Then what happens? Austerity like you've never seen will be forced upon us. Just look at Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal for great examples of this. When that happens, SS will be cut drastically because it has to.
Well "Pete", if Republicans had been prudent with taxpayer dollars, you would have made some good points...but they haven't and Democrats have long memories ! When Reagan came into office the national debt totaled about a trillion. He cut taxes and spent a bundle on a military buildup. When his administration was asked...they basicially said don't worry we can spend and cut taxes, deficits don't matter and....we are fighting the "evil empire". The debt when Reagan left office, nearly three trillion dollars. George H.W. Bush took over and in 4 years the debt had climbed to 4.5 trillion. George W. takes on a debt load of nearly 6 trillion, cuts taxes and when asked about deficits, basicially says don't worry, we can spend and cut taxes, deficits don't matter, and.... we are fighting the "axis of evil". By the time he leaves office the debt is at 12 trillion.
In that time period the top tax rate in this country went from 70% to 35%.
Forgive me if I missed most of the great economic boon coming from cutting taxes in half. Especially since I read the other day that the average American's wages went up a GRAND TOTAL of 4% adjusted for inflation, between 1971 and 2007. American families survived by sending wives out to work, and then by borrowing themselves into poverty. Now...SOME Republicans want the poor and elderly to pay the piper for the debt, because SUDDENLY debt and deficits DO matter.
Cynical ???? You bet I am !

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#76219 Apr 13, 2013
Good morning all.
Overtaxed

Thorn Hill, TN

#76220 Apr 13, 2013
Overtaxed wrote:
<quoted text>
Well "Pete", if Republicans had been prudent with taxpayer dollars, you would have made some good points...but they haven't and Democrats have long memories ! When Reagan came into office the national debt totaled about a trillion. He cut taxes and spent a bundle on a military buildup. When his administration was asked...they basicially said don't worry we can spend and cut taxes, deficits don't matter and....we are fighting the "evil empire". The debt when Reagan left office, nearly three trillion dollars. George H.W. Bush took over and in 4 years the debt had climbed to 4.5 trillion. George W. takes on a debt load of nearly 6 trillion, cuts taxes and when asked about deficits, basicially says don't worry, we can spend and cut taxes, deficits don't matter, and.... we are fighting the "axis of evil". By the time he leaves office the debt is at 12 trillion.
In that time period the top tax rate in this country went from 70% to 35%.
Forgive me if I missed most of the great economic boon coming from cutting taxes in half. Especially since I read the other day that the average American's wages went up a GRAND TOTAL of 4% adjusted for inflation, between 1971 and 2007. American families survived by sending wives out to work, and then by borrowing themselves into poverty. Now...SOME Republicans want the poor and elderly to pay the piper for the debt, because SUDDENLY debt and deficits DO matter.
Cynical ???? You bet I am !
I neglected to mention one important point. The last Republican to hold the office of President that REALLY gave a darn about the national debt and the deficit was Richard Nixon....I voted for him twice, and while he is widely villified by members of both parties, I think his sins are small in comparison to the damage done to the Republic by the three Republicans that followed.

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#76221 Apr 13, 2013
Overtaxed wrote:
<quoted text>
Well "Pete", if Republicans had been prudent with taxpayer dollars, you would have made some good points...but they haven't and Democrats have long memories ! When Reagan came into office the national debt totaled about a trillion. He cut taxes and spent a bundle on a military buildup. When his administration was asked...they basicially said don't worry we can spend and cut taxes, deficits don't matter and....we are fighting the "evil empire". The debt when Reagan left office, nearly three trillion dollars. George H.W. Bush took over and in 4 years the debt had climbed to 4.5 trillion. George W. takes on a debt load of nearly 6 trillion, cuts taxes and when asked about deficits, basicially says don't worry, we can spend and cut taxes, deficits don't matter, and.... we are fighting the "axis of evil". By the time he leaves office the debt is at 12 trillion.
In that time period the top tax rate in this country went from 70% to 35%.
Forgive me if I missed most of the great economic boon coming from cutting taxes in half. Especially since I read the other day that the average American's wages went up a GRAND TOTAL of 4% adjusted for inflation, between 1971 and 2007. American families survived by sending wives out to work, and then by borrowing themselves into poverty. Now...SOME Republicans want the poor and elderly to pay the piper for the debt, because SUDDENLY debt and deficits DO matter.
Cynical ???? You bet I am !

Excellent point!
Overtaxed

Thorn Hill, TN

#76222 Apr 13, 2013
Hey wrote:
<quoted text>
What I said here was refering to your thing, how getting all these people to go with it was impossible.
I said it appeared that many went along with the WMDs which were bogus to begin with and look at the wild ride that took off on,killing how many?
And how many were involved in the big money scam of 2008? One or two?
Do you doubt the firefighters on the scene and you believe Cheney?
Does iron melt and flow from an office fire and burning furniture?
Does 50 percent of the twin towers just disappear in a puff of smoke?
Where are the crushed bodies,instead of bitsy pieces and bone fragments?
These aren't my holes in my stories these are first responders questions and a lot more just like these are being asked even by those who were involved in the 9/11 commisson report.
I am saying these look like really good questions that need answers and they want answers.
So sue me.
You apparently believe that our government could coordinate all that happened on 911, and then keep it a secret, but couldn't slip a few WMD into Iraq when the DOD was shipping MASSIVE amounts of munitions there everyday. Are those in charge geniuses or are they inept ?? I do not see how they can be both. Ask all the questions you want "Hey". That is your right and I am happy to fight for you to have that right. I don't think you will be satisfied no matter what answers you get, but ask away.

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#76223 Apr 13, 2013
Amos wrote:
<quoted text>I pay 44 dollars per month for health insurance,dental/vision. Get a better job.
Where do you work? I pay almost double that each week and I've got one of the better plans in town. Does your healthcare cover anything more than leeches? I haven't paid a healthcare premium that low since Clinton was in office.
Hey

Cookeville, TN

#76224 Apr 13, 2013
Overtaxed wrote:
<quoted text>You apparently believe that our government could coordinate all that happened on 911, and then keep it a secret, but couldn't slip a few WMD into Iraq when the DOD was shipping MASSIVE amounts of munitions there everyday. Are those in charge geniuses or are they inept ?? I do not see how they can be both. Ask all the questions you want "Hey". That is your right and I am happy to fight for you to have that right. I don't think you will be satisfied no matter what answers you get, but ask away.
I asked you some of the seperate questions that first responders,building experts,family members,demolition experts and the 9/11 commission committee are asking.
You are not answering the individual Questions that don't stack up with reality.
How does molten steel run down the building from an office fire? The steel in the building is melting from office furniture that's burning,then it collapses in its own footprint in a few seconds with no resistence? The point is it can't.I'm not saying this, the experts are saying this,and there are a lot of experts involved in wanting answers.
You say you don't think i'll be satisfied no matter what answers I get but you have not answered any questions I've asked,You just come back with how silly to think you could get such involvement but these folks are looking at these individual things that do not add up,and there is many many of these that don't add up.
Fifty percent of a building gone in the dust just does not sit well with the experts who are aware of these kinds of issues.
I think it's important to know these answers for this country as we know it is day by day losing it's place as a free nation,and there are a lot of dead people in this war on terror.
Just answer this 1 question on building 7.I know it's a magical building that stands its ground one half hour after the BBC said in went down,but that's another story another rock to look under.
Pete

Johnson City, TN

#76225 Apr 13, 2013
Dunlapian wrote:
<quoted text>Pete, I am no expert in Politics, but what I have seen in the past 10 years or so in the Republican Party is a major takeover by the TeaParty.
Your post is very interesting, and many things to digest and think about.
Now could you explain, just what you meant by the average Government spending per household has exceeded the average household income?
I opened up your first link, and found out the Feds collected a record $2.7 Trillion in taxes, and the Republicans are going to
jump on President Obamas goal of raising taxes, "especially on the wealthy".
Now Pete, this is what I have a problem with, the Republicans(TeaParty) seem to only care about the rich, they could care less making cuts on the backs of those that are less fortunate.
Hi Dunlapian. I am happy to respond and will address this to OT as well because I think he basically stated the same points you did. I will make this short because I have to leave and because most of these points have been argued to death by many others on here. But simply, I posted my beliefs. I realize not everyone agrees, but these are my true beliefs and I do respect your opinion as well as others' opinions as well, even though we differ.

The average income per household information can be found at the U.S. Bureau of Census website. I think somebody alluded to that definition above. There are also tons of articles on this very fact currently on the internet.

Republicans, for the record, are all for helping the poor and needy. Our government wastes so much money, we are now at a point where we have to cut almost across the board, including some beneficial programs for these classes of citizens. We could tax corporations and taxpayers 100% and still not pay off our debt. We are at record high tax levels already. We are also now at record high spending levels. We cannot keep increasing taxes and increasing spending and remain viable. It isn't possible. Yes, you can argue that we could re-appropriate tax dollars from things such as defense, aid to foreign countries, investment in new technologies, etc. and send this money to the poor and needy. This is a valid argument. But simply spending more and more is not. Our government, republican and democrat, wastes so much of our tax money we could easily help the poor and needy and lower taxes. Look what Cal Coolidge did. But given term limits, our politicians are only interested in getting re-elected, so the focus is on that rather than where the real needs are.

Also, there are only 50 something Tea Party members in a house made up of 435 members. You and others may be polar opposites of how the Tea Party thinks, but they are not a very influential factor any longer. The Tea Party is far from making up most of the Republican party. The Tea Party get gets a lot of the attention because they are who you disagree with the most. Just like Nancy Pelosi and others get a lot of ink. If the Tea Party was that influential, we wouldn't have had the recent tax hike on the wealthy and we wouldn't have Obamacare.

Republicans want America to go back to a philosophy where a good work ethic, sound principles and personal accountability were the norm. Again, myself and most other Republicans wish that everyone who is in need would receive help. However, those who don't try to help themselves should not be entitled to that same help. That is going on today and in the past. The rich aren't taking anything away from the poor and needy. If it weren't for the rich, most charities wouldn't exist. Today, the rich would rather give directly to charities than have the government distribute their taxes due to the prevalent government waste. Look how much money simply disappeared with the Katrina relief. This blame can be placed across local, state and the federal government. How much taxes does it take for a Presidential re-election? This would have helped many.

Just my two cents.
Pete

Johnson City, TN

#76226 Apr 13, 2013
Overtaxed wrote:
<quoted text>
Well "Pete", if Republicans had been prudent with taxpayer dollars, you would have made some good points...but they haven't and Democrats have long memories ! When Reagan came into office the national debt totaled about a trillion. He cut taxes and spent a bundle on a military buildup. When his administration was asked...they basicially said don't worry we can spend and cut taxes, deficits don't matter and....we are fighting the "evil empire". The debt when Reagan left office, nearly three trillion dollars. George H.W. Bush took over and in 4 years the debt had climbed to 4.5 trillion. George W. takes on a debt load of nearly 6 trillion, cuts taxes and when asked about deficits, basicially says don't worry, we can spend and cut taxes, deficits don't matter, and.... we are fighting the "axis of evil". By the time he leaves office the debt is at 12 trillion.
In that time period the top tax rate in this country went from 70% to 35%.
Forgive me if I missed most of the great economic boon coming from cutting taxes in half. Especially since I read the other day that the average American's wages went up a GRAND TOTAL of 4% adjusted for inflation, between 1971 and 2007. American families survived by sending wives out to work, and then by borrowing themselves into poverty. Now...SOME Republicans want the poor and elderly to pay the piper for the debt, because SUDDENLY debt and deficits DO matter.
OT, republicans and democrats are both at fault. However, now we need to fix the problems. Right now, they are getting worse because we continue to do the same things that got us here. Yes, Bush and company helped get us here. But Obama is now accelerating the ill effects. The country has no money with the highest taxes in history. This is an obvious problem, regardless of how we got to this point. We now need to focus on fixing it.
My point in my post centers around the fact our debt is now more than our GDP. Therefore, we have no means to pay this debt other than to print money. This hurts everyone including the middle class and the poor. I wish for everyone to stop the blame game and simply redirect the focus to actually fixing the problem. Everyone is going to have to participate at fixing this problem.
Again, just my opinion, and if I sound a little bit cynical, it is probably because I am as well. Right now we have come to a rock barrier in a road with a semi truck barrelling towards us from the rear. Our solution to this problem is removing one rock at a time rather than taking a backhoe and removing a lot of rocks at a time. Stupid analogy, but I hope it helps make my point

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#76227 Apr 13, 2013
Pete wrote:
<quoted text>
We are at record high tax levels already.
This is simply not true.
Dunlapian

Dunlap, TN

#76228 Apr 13, 2013
The Original Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
Where do you work? I pay almost double that each week and I've got one of the better plans in town. Does your healthcare cover anything more than leeches? I haven't paid a healthcare premium that low since Clinton was in office.
Well OA, only since you brought it up, I use to pay half of that when I was working,(at one time we didn't pay anything at all) now that I'm retired I now I pay a little more. But don't think the company did it out of the goodness of their heart, it takes a good Union for that to happen.
The only thing I can say is that it is BlueCross BlueShield which is a POS, and it covers Medical,Dental and Vision,
I have a $20 deductible.
They do provide me with other options every year, but my wife does the choosing.
Dunlapian

Dunlap, TN

#76230 Apr 13, 2013
Scarlett Pimple wrote:
<quoted text>
"In fiscal 2010, according to numbers published by the Census Bureau and the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), net spending by all levels of government in the United States was $5,942,988,401,000. That equaled $50,074 for each one of the 118,682,000 households in the country.
In that same year, according to the Census Bureau, the median household income was $49,445."
http://www.sumnerbooks.com/books/view/complet...
"A nation whose government spends per family more than the typical family earns is on the road to ruin. "
O.K., Thanks!
But wait, the Feds just don't get ALL of their revenue from households, now does it?
They also squeeze taxes out of Corporations(people per Romney)and other places. So it's not sound math when you take a number(net spending) and divide it by just "households" and leave off all other forms of income.
But still I do agree with you that we are spending way too much.
Now what I do see coming, or at least what the Republicans want to do is "FIRST" take it off the backs of those that need it the most.
Overtaxed

Thorn Hill, TN

#76231 Apr 13, 2013
Pete wrote:
<quoted text>
OT, republicans and democrats are both at fault. However, now we need to fix the problems. Right now, they are getting worse because we continue to do the same things that got us here. Yes, Bush and company helped get us here. But Obama is now accelerating the ill effects. The country has no money with the highest taxes in history. This is an obvious problem, regardless of how we got to this point. We now need to focus on fixing it.
My point in my post centers around the fact our debt is now more than our GDP. Therefore, we have no means to pay this debt other than to print money. This hurts everyone including the middle class and the poor. I wish for everyone to stop the blame game and simply redirect the focus to actually fixing the problem. Everyone is going to have to participate at fixing this problem.
Again, just my opinion, and if I sound a little bit cynical, it is probably because I am as well. Right now we have come to a rock barrier in a road with a semi truck barrelling towards us from the rear. Our solution to this problem is removing one rock at a time rather than taking a backhoe and removing a lot of rocks at a time. Stupid analogy, but I hope it helps make my point
"Pete" your assetrion that we have the highest taxes in history is simply....wrong. The top tax bracket under Eisenhower was 91%. The top bracket when Reagan was inaugurated was 70% the top bracket today is under 40%. Capital gains are half that top rate.
In 1976 the top 1% held 19% of the wealth in America. By 2000 they held 40% and today slightly under 50%...so SOME Americans have the ability to pay the debt. What congress and Obama need to do is grow a backbone and tax those who have gotten a free ride as the rest of us have barely stayed afloat, not look to the 99% which COLLECTIVELY have little more than the 1% do, to correct the mistakes made over 30 years. If a jump to 70% on the highest earners isn't enough, there are always tariffs on cheap Chinese junk which we are swimming in thanks in part to Wal-mart and our free trader friends in both parties.... I believe it was Willie Sutton who, when asked why he robbed banks, answered "because that's where the money is". Well we all know where the money is in our country and it isn't in the back pockets of average Americans. If the traesury needs to further constrict the pittance given to retirees, I suggest they divest a few bucks from those who can well afford it FIRST. To take more dollars out of the pockets of retirees and working class Americans just constricts their buying power all the more and exacerbates an already sluggish recovery.
Overtaxed

Thorn Hill, TN

#76232 Apr 13, 2013
Dunlapian wrote:
<quoted text>O.K., Thanks!
But wait, the Feds just don't get ALL of their revenue from households, now does it?
They also squeeze taxes out of Corporations(people per Romney)and other places. So it's not sound math when you take a number(net spending) and divide it by just "households" and leave off all other forms of income.
But still I do agree with you that we are spending way too much.
Now what I do see coming, or at least what the Republicans want to do is "FIRST" take it off the backs of those that need it the most.
Seems funny to me that the emphasis of this is that the government is spending as much per family as an average family makes...but not at what a pittance a fifty thousand dollar average income for an American family is !
We spent last year hearing what a terrible time folks were going to have if incomes over 250K were subjected to a 3% income tax raise....but NOTHING about the fact that the average American family has to get by on ONE FIFTH of that. Now our elected representatives are busy telling us that 50K is enough to live on and still save to suppliment a retirement, because government must cut the COLA for seniors....Talk about being out of touch with average Americans....they aren't out of touch they are from a different planet.
Scarlett Pimple

Jamestown, TN

#76233 Apr 13, 2013
The Original Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
This is simply not true.
Overtaxed wrote:
<quoted text> "Pete" your assetrion that we have the highest taxes in history is simply....wrong.
Pete was not talking about tax rates, he was talking about tax receipts - the amount extracted from those who actually work and pay federal income taxes.

According to the CBO in this document:

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofil...

the federal Treasury expects to collect a record $2.712 trillion in taxes on Americans and U.S. business this year, shattering the 2007 high of $2.5 trillion in taxes.

And the fine print in President Obama's budget presented Wednesday reveals that the administration expects to take more in taxes than the Congressional Budget Office projects.

The president's 376-page "Historical Tables," projects that tax receipts will soar during the remainder of the president's second term, reaching nearly $4 trillion in 2018.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files...

Something tells me that it won't all come out the hides of the rich.....
Bump

Lebanon, TN

#76234 Apr 13, 2013
John J. Hooker
Overtaxed

Thorn Hill, TN

#76235 Apr 13, 2013
Hey wrote:
<quoted text>
I asked you some of the seperate questions that first responders,building experts,family members,demolition experts and the 9/11 commission committee are asking.
You are not answering the individual Questions that don't stack up with reality.
How does molten steel run down the building from an office fire? The steel in the building is melting from office furniture that's burning,then it collapses in its own footprint in a few seconds with no resistence? The point is it can't.I'm not saying this, the experts are saying this,and there are a lot of experts involved in wanting answers.
You say you don't think i'll be satisfied no matter what answers I get but you have not answered any questions I've asked,You just come back with how silly to think you could get such involvement but these folks are looking at these individual things that do not add up,and there is many many of these that don't add up.
Fifty percent of a building gone in the dust just does not sit well with the experts who are aware of these kinds of issues.
I think it's important to know these answers for this country as we know it is day by day losing it's place as a free nation,and there are a lot of dead people in this war on terror.
Just answer this 1 question on building 7.I know it's a magical building that stands its ground one half hour after the BBC said in went down,but that's another story another rock to look under.
Well, "Hey" I would guess that a jet is powered by jet engines, and that jet engines run on jet fuel, and that jet fuel burns fairly easily and a fire from jet fuel would get pretty hot...but I never claimed to be a structural engineer, and I have no idea how or why the buildings fell.
I am sure there are people with questions, and engineers that have opinions, and those who claim to have heard or seen unusual things....and those who will pay them to express their opinions and those who will exploit those opinions, heck I know a man that believes our country never landed a man on the moon. Another big conspiracy to get money out of the treasury according to him....
I am not going to attempt to answer any of your questions...since I am no expert on how this building went up or how it came down. I did watch a documntary where an engineer was explaining how the towers were built and why it was possible to have them collapse as they did, but truthfully much of his explaination went over my head.
I do not believe any conspiracy happened here. If you do, power to you !
Overtaxed

Thorn Hill, TN

#76236 Apr 13, 2013
Scarlett Pimple wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Pete was not talking about tax rates, he was talking about tax receipts - the amount extracted from those who actually work and pay federal income taxes.
According to the CBO in this document:
http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofil...
the federal Treasury expects to collect a record $2.712 trillion in taxes on Americans and U.S. business this year, shattering the 2007 high of $2.5 trillion in taxes.
And the fine print in President Obama's budget presented Wednesday reveals that the administration expects to take more in taxes than the Congressional Budget Office projects.
The president's 376-page "Historical Tables," projects that tax receipts will soar during the remainder of the president's second term, reaching nearly $4 trillion in 2018.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files...
Something tells me that it won't all come out the hides of the rich.....
If that 4 trillion dollar number isn't too rosy an estimate, maybe congress and the administration will stop trying to milk the last dollar out of those who can least afford it, and folks like me that depend on the spending from those average Americans, to survive in business can FINALLY breath a sigh of relief.
Pete

Nashville, TN

#76237 Apr 13, 2013
Overtaxed wrote:
<quoted text> Seems funny to me that the emphasis of this is that the government is spending as much per family as an average family makes...but not at what a pittance a fifty thousand dollar average income for an American family is !
We spent last year hearing what a terrible time folks were going to have if incomes over 250K were subjected to a 3% income tax raise....but NOTHING about the fact that the average American family has to get by on ONE FIFTH of that. Now our elected representatives are busy telling us that 50K is enough to live on and still save to suppliment a retirement, because government must cut the COLA for seniors....Talk about being out of touch with average Americans....they aren't out of touch they are from a different planet.
OT, I'm not simply making this up. News articles everywhere have been reporting this for months.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/tax-revenue-record-...

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