4 horsemen in the book of Revelation

Posted in the Grayson Forum

Comments (Page 5)

Showing posts 81 - 100 of218
|
Go to last page| Jump to page:
New Guy

Olive Hill, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#83
Jul 19, 2012
 
Minister777 wrote:
<quoted text>
There were many things during the destruction of Jerusalem which were not fulfilled and the event of 70 AD served as a type of what is to come as prophesied in the Revelation.
Among Bible scholars, the word generation means not a generation of people, but the Greek word means the race of the Jews. Careful study of the Greek bears this out.
Revelation 20 is a teaching of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ. Any teaching otherwise flies in the face of facts.
I agree with one thing you said- 70 AD serves as a type of what will happen when Christ returns.

You're wrong about the meaning of the word generation. The post ahead of mine already mentioned that. A generation in those days accounted for about 40 years.

Everything about the destruction of Jerusalem was fulfilled. It can be proven in scripture and in history. Revelation 20 absolutely does not teach an earthly millenial reign of Christ. I will prove that later.

Premillenialism flies in the face of facts, and of God. By all means, continue what you are doing. Don't be upset when others disagree and reject your teaching.

I would like to see your answers to those questions I asked at the end of my other post. It would be most enlightening.

I have to work now. I will check any responses later, and give my own.
Minister777

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#84
Jul 19, 2012
 

Judged:

1

1

1

okaaaay wrote:
<quoted text>
The Greek word genos (race) is not a synonym for genea (generation).
You fundies go on about hermeneutics, yet you don't follow them.
A universal hermeneutic is that a verse is to be interpreted in the context from which it is taken.
Generation cannot stand for race, because the context in which Jesus is speaking is one of time, not nationality.
Throughout Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking of events that will happen in the time of his disciples. That generation is not a future generation.
Sorry about that guys, but I'm afraid the idiot has been posting in my name. By now you ought to be able to recognize MY writing by my style and the way I teach. Anyone that would stoop so low as to post as someone else has given up on what he believes and is attempting to discredit me. I know who it is, anyway, and so should anyone else that is following what I am posting.

I looked at the post that "okaaay" replied to and thought,..."when the heck did I post that? I don't even believe what all he posted" ....lol. How childish.
Minister777

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#85
Jul 19, 2012
 

Judged:

1

1

1

First... Posts 76,77,78,79,80, and 81 are not me. Sounds a lot like "Hmmm" to me, don't it. That's a sad way to avoid answering the simple question I asked him ....lol. Lord help us from the ignorance of ignorance. Did I not say at the beginning of this thread that the devil would send in some to disrupt? He proved it, sad to say.

And "New Guy"... You will have to address Hmmm about that. I haven't a clue what he thinks he believes. But it doesn't upset me when people disagree with what I teach. Like I've said before, I love to learn and if someone has something better that I have not seen and it proves to be better than what I have then I am more than willing to reexamine my teaching and see how it fits. Same with the rejecting thing. Happens all the time :) and as I said at the start, feel free to question and such.... just don't be like "Hmmm". Now that is one thing that really upsets me. He may think it's funny but he hasn't a clue as to how his actions may affect others. Ant to simply avoid a question he refuses to answer. Talk about grabbing at straws. And I'll check your other post and see what you said in it and get back with you.
Minister777

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#86
Jul 19, 2012
 

Judged:

1

1

1

New Guy wrote:
I want to help out with this.
The great tribulation in Matthew 24 has nothing to do with future, end times events.
(((The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was way past the 490 years in Daniel it one believes that there was no break when Christ was crucified and that would put us at least a thousand years past the white throne judgment and into eternity with our immortal bodies)))
It was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Read the chapter in context. Even the "abomination of desolation" is described in Luke's account. There, Jesus said, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then you know its' desolation is near." Jesus told Peter, James, and John that they would see some of those things take place,
(((Peter and James had already been killed before 70 AD)))
and that that generation would not pass until those things had happened.
Matthew 24:35 is the change in the chapter-from "those days" to "that day". The last half of Matthew 24 is speaking of the second coming of Christ.
(((Agreed, except that "those days" are speaking of the tribulation and great tribulation that is yet to come. If it had came, what do you do with : Matthew 24:21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,no, NOR EVER SHALL BE" with "after" implied. I would believe that what Hitler did to the Jews was far worse than what happened in 70 AD, even though they had no country of their own in that Israel was not a nation with a land, so to speak, so that would make 24:21 a false statement. I believe most agree that what Hitler did to the Jews was the worse that had ever until that time happened to them. And "that day" speaks of the day of His wrath, following close after his 2nd coming.....I'll have more on that later so bear with me :))))
If you study Revelation 20 you will find no mention of an earthly, literal reign of Christ for 1000 years. What you do find when you study the Scripture is that Christ is reigning in His kingdom now, the millenium is now, and His people are reigning with Him now.
(((Jesus said in Luke 17:20 ¶ And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it........"
So the Kingdom Jesus was speaking of, even then, was not a literal physical kingdom of land which is to come with the 2nd coming, but a spiritual kingdom we can walk in every day if we walk according to God's kingdom ways,,, hope you understand what I mean in saying it that way ,,, Same as "we are in this world but not a part of this world" thing. We are not to walk according to the worlds (kingdom) ways but according to Gods (kingdom) ways.
If you are premillenialist, you should ask yourself:
Was it God's intention all along to set up an earthly kingdom?
(((I believe so but I would have put it... IS it Gods intention)))
Was the church ever in His plans?
(((Yes. From the very beginning since the church, or all believers, are the body of Christ. Jesus said that when we are born again we become a "new creature (creation)". Neither Jew nor Gentile, but all being formed into the body of Christ.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Born again and new creature meaning the same thing)))
Can Jesus rule on the earth?
((I believe so, according to all I have studied points to it. And the OT prophecies pointed forward to Christ and bear witness of Him)))
What were OT prophecies pointing toward?
Ran out of Characters
New Guy

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#87
Jul 19, 2012
 
Happens to me a lot. At least glad you see the church was in God's eternal plan. Many premills dont-and that basically says that God is a failure, He didn't know what was going to happen, and He was wrong-it makes God not be what He should be.

There is one point to make about OT prophecy before we go any further. Many people will take OT prophecy and apply it to OUR future. They skip any first century fulfillment and automatically go into "end times mode." There is one scripture I believe everyone should know.

Acts 3:24- Peter speaking- "And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced THESE DAYS." OT prophecy was pointing to the FIRST coming of Christ, the birth of the church, and events in the first century-NOT things to be fulfilled future to us. Luke 21:22- in this same discourse Jesus says, "Because these are days of vengeance, in order that ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN MAY BE FULFILLED." He was speaking of the destruction of the city and the temple in 70 AD.

Point- we make huge historical blunders when we take OT prophecy and project them into OUR future. Example- the prophecy in Jeremiah about "Jacob's trouble"-prophecy of 70 AD, not the "great tribulation" some see in our future.

Let's do some basic Matthew 24 now. At the start, the 3 disciples ask 3 questions- when; what's the sign of your coming; and of the end of the age? Jesus answers. Notice an important word- "YOU". Jesus is speaking specifically to Peter, James, and John. He says in vs 9 that some of YOU will be killed-you answered that correctly. Peter and James were killed by 70 AD. Jesus was right. John was still alive though.

The "great tribulation"- False christs- were they around in the first century-Yes. Wars and rumors of wars-Yes. Rome and the rest of the world were constantly at war, or on the verge of it. Famines-read Acts 11. Earthquakes- at the crucifixion, and around the world near 70 AD. Remember Pompeii from history class? 66 AD. You already mentioned Peter and James being killed, as well as Paul. Falling away, false prophets-check; gospel preached in all the world- read Colossians 1:23.

When all these things are come, then the end shall come. End of what? End of the world? Second coming? Or the end of the city of Jerusalem, the temple, and the nation of Israel? It was the end of Israel, the law, and the temple.

Abomination of desolation-Jesus explains what that is in Luke 21:20- "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand." General Titus surrounded Jerusalem with his army in 70 AD, and besieged it several months.

If you read Matthew 24:16-22 it is obvious that He is speaking to a first century audience. "Let those in JUDEA flee to the mountains; do not go down from the housetop to get things out of the house; don't go to the field to get your cloak; woe to those who are with child or nursing; not in winter or on the Sabbath." Today these make little to no sense. In the first century it makes perfect sense.

I could go in depth more, but I'll stop with those for now. But-vs. 34- this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Those alive at that time.

35-that day and hour- speaking of the second coming. Just as in the days of Noah; no one knows the day or hour; and THERE ARE NO WARNING SIGNS FOR HIS RETURN.

I will go into more details tomorrow. Tired and sleepy now. But one more thing-don't discount how terrible the destruction of the city was. Over 1.5 million died within a few months. The holocaust took years. 97,000 were took as slaves. The city and temple were leveled, the ground plowed and salted to kill everything. The OT nation of Israel was judged, and ceased to exist. The modern nation is not the Israel we read of in the Bible. It was the final judgment on a rebellious nation. Don't discount that.

More later.
Minister777

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#88
Jul 19, 2012
 
Thanks for a friendly post. Appreciate that :) But you touched on something that I was getting ready to get into, The 4 horsemen. And I go by the understanding that John wrote Revelation somewhere around 90 AD. Not before 70 AD. Too many things in it to apply it to before 70 AD, but I'll get to that later also. Again.... thanks for a friendly discussion. I notice they did some really neat Judging to their own posts up there. Guess they need a lot of prayer. I believe you have read enough of my posts to be able to discern if one is from me or not. Why they want to post in my name is pretty immature, but you can expect that.

God bless
Minister777

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#89
Jul 19, 2012
 
correction...... "Too many things in it to apply it to before 70 AD" should read. Too many things in it point to the future to be able to put it before 70 AD. I'll make that more clear later. If I don't watch I'll get ahead of myself and I hate it when I do that. My brain is ahead of me at times ...lol.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#90
Jul 20, 2012
 

Judged:

1

1

Minister777 wrote:
Thanks for a friendly post. Appreciate that :) But you touched on something that I was getting ready to get into, The 4 horsemen. And I go by the understanding that John wrote Revelation somewhere around 90 AD. Not before 70 AD. Too many things in it to apply it to before 70 AD, but I'll get to that later also. Again.... thanks for a friendly discussion. I notice they did some really neat Judging to their own posts up there. Guess they need a lot of prayer. I believe you have read enough of my posts to be able to discern if one is from me or not. Why they want to post in my name is pretty immature, but you can expect that.
God bless
I like a good religious debate, a back and forth. I don't like arguing over it. I say we present our cases, and let everyone who reads them judge for themselves what the truth is. I always try to be respectful.

As far as others posting in your name, I would suggest signing up and being the official Minister 777.
Minister777

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#91
Jul 20, 2012
 
totally agree. I had a registered name a few years back but I forgot what it was ...lol. I'll have to see if I can find it. thanks

Since: Jul 12

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#92
Jul 20, 2012
 
OK.... I'll show up as this from now on

Since: Jul 12

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#93
Jul 20, 2012
 
Just remember it has two 7's instead of 3. seems someone already had it. Be interesting to see who.... thanks "New Guy" :)
New Guy

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#94
Jul 20, 2012
 
Least we know now who you are. You feel free to continue your lesson. I'll respond to your next points later. Take care.
Not Autistic

Flatwoods, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#95
Jul 21, 2012
 
Someone call Dean Malenko and Ric Flair

it's URGENT.
Not Autistic

Flatwoods, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#96
Jul 21, 2012
 
and Arn Anderson
New Guy

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#97
Jul 21, 2012
 
You must be a younger fan. Did you forget JJ Dillon, Barry Windham, Tully Blanchard, and Ole Anderson? The original Horsemen were the best.

Revelation 20- the millenium. Many different ideas and doctrines have came from this passage. Here's a birds eye view of my beliefs.

For those that believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth, notice what is MISSING in the chapter:

*No literal Jerusalem mentioned- only the "beloved city" in verse 9, which is the church of the living God.
*No temple mentioned at all.
*No "throne of David" here.
*No LIVING people ruling with Christ.

Here's what we do see:
*Satan is bound for 1000 years with a great chain. This isn't literal. In fact, if we take Revelation literally, we will make mistakes, for it is a spiritual, symbolic book. Satan was bound by the truth, the gospel. He is still dangerous, but he cannot deceive the nations now as he once did. However, at the end of the millenium, that will change, and he will do so again.

Binding of Satan- Matt. 12:29; keys to the kingdom (church) Matt. 16:18; Satan is bound by Christ and His gospel. We obey the gospel, become Christians-Satan is bound to us.

Now, verse 4. Notice that nowhere does it say that these reign on earth in a restored Jerusalem with a new temple. It's not there. What we see are "souls" living and reigning with Christ for 1000 years. I believe the term "1000 years" to be a symbolic period, that started at Pentecost in Acts 2 and lasts until the Second coming of Jesus. The 1000 years is the church age. Not a literal 1000 years.

These souls were beheaded for their witness of Jesus, and for the word, and hadn't worshipped the beast. They lived (these are SOULS, remember) and reigned w/Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is a reference to the general resurrection of all at the second coming (John 5:28-29). The scripture states that both the righteous and wicked are raised at the same time-not years and events apart.

Verse 6- notice what is said about those "souls". Blessed and holy; have part in the "First resurrection". What is this first resurrection?
*2nd death has no power
*Priests of God, Christ
*Reign with Him a thousand years

If we study, we see that these simply are Christians:
*2nd death has no power- read verse 15- "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." When we obey the gospel our names are written in heaven.

*Priests-1 Peter 2:9- "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people."

*Reign with Him- Christians are reigning with Him now in His kingdom now. Ephesians 2:6- "And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."
Colossians 1:13- He "hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son."
Revelation 1:6- Christ has "made us kings and priests unto God and His Father;"
Revelation 1:9- "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in TRIBULATION, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ."

The kingdom and reign of Christ are present tense. They were happening in John's day, and is still happening now. Christians are priests and kings with God now. The millenium isn't future, it is NOW!

So what is the "first resurrection"? Read Romans 6:1-7. If we go through "the first resurrection", then the second death has no power over us, and we become priests, kings, and reign with Him. Romans 6 tells us when that occurs.

At the end of this age, Satan will be loosed. The truth, the gospel restraints, will be removed and he will be free to deceive the nations. Imagine what that world will be like-even though it's only a short while. Then Christ returns, and the final judgment follows.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#98
Jul 21, 2012
 
Throne of David. This post is shorter. In Luke 1:30-33 the angel Gabriel tells Mary that her son shall be great, and "The Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David: And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end."

Many see a reference here to the millenial kingdom. But, if the millenium is now and the kingdom is now, what to make of this scripture? Is Christ to sit on the literal throne of David in the literal city of Jerusalem? No.

First, Jesus cannot be an earthly king, in the same way He cannot be an earthly High Priest. Read Jeremiah 22:24-30 and Matthew 1:1-16. Jesus cannot reign on earth- He comes from the lineage of Jeconiah- and NONE of his descendants could reign on the throne.

Next, read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, especially verses 25-36. Jesus is sitting on the throne now, and it's "David's throne" in the sense that He now reigns over God's people. Revelation 3:7- Jesus said that He had the key of David, which is the ability to rule God's people. He was doing that presently.

I contend that the kingdom is now, the millenium is now, Jesus is reigning now, and Christians are priests and ruling with Him now. The only events left in Bible history are for Him to return, the judgement, and then eternity. My humble opinion.

Since: Jul 12

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#99
Jul 21, 2012
 
New Guy...... No disrespect but most of the things you have addressed I will get to a little further in my process here. I try to teach is steps and not get ahead of myself and a lot of what you propose is a tad bit ahead of where I am at right now.

But I have to ask, also. Are you a partial preterist of simply pre-trib? I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully understand the preterists views and never bothered to do much research on them for the simple reason that they had way too many things that go against natural biblical ways. Same with the partial ones (never understood how one could be a partial preterist). I mean, if you are it's not a problem with me. But a lot of the points you made are very easily addressed but, like I said, I really don't want to get that far ahead of where I am right now. Hope you understand. But we will get there

I've been kinda sidetracked for some days. Have a lot of friends that are going through some of the worse tests I have ever seen and it's requiring a lot of my time. Also some family problems, just some disagreements amongst them and I seem to always end up in the middle even though I try to stay out of them, but family is family and to make peace is what being a Christian is. I mean family as a whole.... brothers and sisters and nephews and nieces :/ so bear with me......
New Guy

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#100
Jul 21, 2012
 
Minister77 wrote:
New Guy...... No disrespect but most of the things you have addressed I will get to a little further in my process here. I try to teach is steps and not get ahead of myself and a lot of what you propose is a tad bit ahead of where I am at right now.
But I have to ask, also. Are you a partial preterist of simply pre-trib? I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully understand the preterists views and never bothered to do much research on them for the simple reason that they had way too many things that go against natural biblical ways. Same with the partial ones (never understood how one could be a partial preterist). I mean, if you are it's not a problem with me. But a lot of the points you made are very easily addressed but, like I said, I really don't want to get that far ahead of where I am right now. Hope you understand. But we will get there
I've been kinda sidetracked for some days. Have a lot of friends that are going through some of the worse tests I have ever seen and it's requiring a lot of my time. Also some family problems, just some disagreements amongst them and I seem to always end up in the middle even though I try to stay out of them, but family is family and to make peace is what being a Christian is. I mean family as a whole.... brothers and sisters and nephews and nieces :/ so bear with me......
No problem. Just seen that the thread was going slow, so I went ahead and gave my "birds eye view" of these things. I will wait now for you to do more of your work, and then I will respond again.

As far as those views, I don't fit in any of those boxes. We'll see that later.

May God help you in your family issues. Continue on soon, and I will check in later.

Since: Jul 12

Morehead, KY

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#101
Jul 21, 2012
 
Cool..... thanks :)
Daniel

Kansas City, MO

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#102
Jul 21, 2012
 
Long popular with futurists, the little book of Daniel forms the cornerstone of the modern dispensationalist view of eschatology. The book makes numerous references to the "time of the end", a phrase that pre-millennial conservatives have been conditioned into equating with the soon-coming Apocalypse, and second return of Jesus Christ.

But, is such a view warranted by the text? Is it possible to demonstrate that the author of Daniel had a different time in mind, once which casts serious doubt upon the claim of Biblical inerrancy?

This article will adduce evidence, both internal and historical, to demonstrate that the era that the author of Daniel designated as the "time of the end" has long since past.

Visions upon Visions

Daniel is divided into two parts - the first six chapters contain legendary, third-person stories about the protagonist and his friends in Babylon. The remaining six chapters are written in the first person, and detail a series of visions that the author allegedly received, and which pertain to the end of time, as the author saw it.

These visions follow a similar theme - a series of events are predicted, which lead up to the appearance of a despicable person, an evil king who will persecute and torture the Saints. This person will continue his reprehensible practices until he is dealt justice by God himself, who then inaugurates the Millennial kingdom, ruled over by the once-persecuted Saints.

In order to answer the question of when the "time of the end" was supposed to take place, we need to be able to locate this person in history. As we shall see, he is not a future ruler, but is in fact an actual historical personage, one who had a great impact upon Jewish history.

The Evil King

This person, the focus of all of Daniel’s prophecies, is consistently described throughout the book. We are told that he is extremely arrogant, to the point of exalting himself as a god (7:20, 7:25, 8:11, 8:25, 11:36, 11:37). He will make war on the Holy (7:21, 7:25, 8:24, 9:26). He will profane the Temple and desolate Jerusalem (8:11, 9:26, 11:24, 11:31), and will abolish the daily sacrifices ands the Jewish Law (7:25, 8:11, 8:12, 8:13, 9:27, 11:31)

As this article will demonstrate, this person was none other than Antiochus IV ‘Epiphanes’, the Seleucid king of Syria from 175 to 164 BCE. By following Antiochus’ career, we can further state that the author of Daniel intended the "time of the end" to be about 164/163 BCE, and that the book was in fact written at this time.

In order to present the facts, it will first be necessary to briefly recount the actions of Antiochus, as it affected the Jews.

Antiochus took the Seleucid throne in 175 BCE following the death of his brother, Seleucus IV. Although not of the royal line, Antiochus managed to secure the throne by subtlety, and, it was alleged, a number of suspicious murders. At about the same time, in Jerusalem, Jason deposed Onias III, the last of the Zadokite priests as the High Priest of the Temple. Jason was a Hellenist sympathizer, and began a campaign of reforms intended to introduce more Greek culture to the Jews. Part of these reforms involved the construction of a Greek gymnasium at Jerusalem, a project that was vehemently opposed by Jews faithful to the old Law.

Tell me when this thread is updated: (Registration is not required)

Add to my Tracker Send me an email

Showing posts 81 - 100 of218
|
Go to last page| Jump to page:
Type in your comments below
Name
(appears on your post)
Comments
Characters left: 4000
Type the numbers you see in the image on the right:

Please note by clicking on "Post Comment" you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

46 Users are viewing the Grayson Forum right now

Search the Grayson Forum:
Topic Updated Last By Comments
KY 'Fox News Sunday' to Host Kentucky Senate Debate (Oct '10) 3 min Le Jimbo 138,719
Bible study rules for public schools proposed (Feb '10) 29 min SevenTee 122,795
police everywhere 1 hr nobody 16
KY Hundreds of birds die in western Ky. (Jan '11) 1 hr Ancient Wolf 81,207
looking for a dog 3 hr charlie 4
casey needs to go 9 hr haha 11
Jim Buck (Jul '13) 11 hr know good 7
•••
•••
•••
•••

Grayson Jobs

•••
•••
•••

Grayson People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

•••

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]
•••