4 horsemen in the book of Revelation
Posted in the Grayson Forum
#1 Jul 10, 2012
I'm going to do a bit of discussing about the 4 horsemen along with the first 4 seals of the tribulation. Not starting tonight cause I got to find some of my notes from around my hoarders laptop ...lol. But anyone interested is more than welcome and disruptive posts will simply be ignored by me and by those interested also. Not a rule but for just a suggestion so the subject matter can flow better. I encourage participation as you never know who may have something that is either missing, overlooked, or simply something I don't know and I love finding nuggets. I don't claim in no way to totally understand all end time events but in 20 years of studying it I have learned a lot and simply want to share a bit of what I have learned and I really encourage that if anyone sees something that I don't please share. It may be right or wrong. either way that's how I learn other than by what the Holy Spirit reveals to me. It takes us all to see a bigger picture and I am a firm believer that God has distributed various key nuggets amongst many people and I seek those who have nuggets of revelation like this. It humbles me from even remotely thinking I know it all. But I believe this forces us to work together in a unity of a common goal with each joint supplying what it has. I love the way God does that. One thing I do know..... if you follow along and are honestly wanting to study this I believe you will be amazed at the things we can find, amen?
Feel free to post some ideas and questions cause, as I said, it will take me a couple of days to get some of my notes.
God bless :)
#2 Jul 10, 2012
Why do we need God to work together and treat each other with respect? This is my question.
#3 Jul 11, 2012
because God is peace, love, and harmony, anything in this world that is good, is of God,
this country has removed God from the schools, the courts, corporate america, and just about all levels of government, and now you see how it has turned out.
#4 Jul 11, 2012
That is not necessarily a cause and effect relationship.
A morality based on the Bible is not the only moral foundation.
There were stable societies prior to the rise of Christianity.
#5 Jul 11, 2012
I see this is getting the devils dander up already. He will work very hard trying to destroy this.
Satan does not want Gods people to understand the truth and be saved. You are going to see that a lot as this forum progresses.
#6 Jul 11, 2012
yes it has started ,and it will continue.I was blessed enough once to sit in on a study of Revalation from chapter to chapter.what a time we had!!continue on I am excited!!
#7 Jul 11, 2012
How much respect do you see in the country today? Look around, how much respect do you see anymore.
I know a young mother with 4 boys, never married. These 4 boys age from 8 to 14 in age. Here's what she's going through.
The oldest is always in trouble at school, and teachers cannot control him and neither can anyone else. I won't go into every thing , but it's very bad. The 8 year old, when told to do something, tells her to "go F your self, you bitch"
The oldest and one next to him is getting into drugs and guns now at home and it will soon be the other two , if not already.
I can just about tell you how this is going to end.
#8 Jul 11, 2012
True. There are other moral foundations. But The Bible is the only moral foundation based on God's word. Any moral foundation that fails to acknowledge or credit The Bible for that particular foundation's purpose, is a Human based foundation, and those are everywhere.
#9 Jul 11, 2012
I will read! Discuss away.
#10 Jul 11, 2012
The Bible is a human based foundation.
#12 Jul 11, 2012
Actually we don't need God in order for us to work together and treat each other with respect. I know a lot of non-christians who do just that. But it depends on the personal morals of each individual. Biggest difference is that works without God will not save you nor gain you access to salvation, or eternal life with God. The statement, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions (or works)" is absolutely true. Grace, which we are saved by through faith leads us to Christ. We do works because we want to, not to impress God or gain a better seat in heaven. Too many people discuss God but the discuss Him as if He isn't real. How can one believe God and follow His ways if they don't believe He is real?
The greatest gift, other than Jesus, that God gave us is free will and very few even understand what is really is or even why God gave it to us in the first place.
#13 Jul 11, 2012
And NO.... the bible is not a human foundation. It is a God based foundation. If you don't understand that then you can not understand His ways.
OK.... before we can even discuss the horsemen we have to find just what this 7 year period is all about. In Daniel chapter 9 verse 2 Daniel tells us:
"Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem."
Daniel was referring to Jeremiah 25:1-14 and especially verses 8-14. He understood that the 70 years that Jeremiah had prophesied about were about to come to an end and that God was going to punish Babylon so Daniel was wanting to know what God wanted Israel to do. He definitely did not want to be in Babylon while God was punishing them. But the Angel didn't answer what Daniel asked. He answered what Daniel should have asked (Something Jesus did quite often). I have to say that I lean on this verse very strongly:
2Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
There will ALWAYS be at least one other place in the bible that confirms a thing. Now a couple of verses just to confirm something. They are not related but show the spiritual and natural formula for computing some things. But remember, just because it works in one place doesn't mean you can use it in every place where a similar situation arises:
Nu 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
In these TWO verses it is safe to say they both witness of each other that in some places you can substitute a day for a year and there are places where you can count a day as a thousand years, but not everywhere that the word "day" is mentioned. Most of the time it is simply a day, a 24 hour period. Back to Daniel and the Angels answer to his question:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and (6) prophecy, and to (7) anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks,(49 years) and threescore and two weeks (434 years): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.(49 + 434 = 483 years = 490 years minus 7 years)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
First, notice that the time periods are broken up into three different periods. A 49 year period, a 434 year period, and a 7 year period. Jesus was crucified after the 2nd period, or 483 years from the beginning of the prophecy (verse 26). This still leaves the one week, or 7 years, of verse 27 of the prophecy to be fulfilled after the crucifixion. This is the period of time we are trying to find. Has it been fulfilled or is it yet to be fulfilled? That is the question.
#14 Jul 11, 2012
So how did 70 years all of a sudden become 490 years? Leviticus holds the answer:
Le 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
Just a note... I have at least 2 of every scripture to confirm with but for the sake of space I'm just going to post one if you don't care.
So we see that even though the original sentence was for 70 years, when Israel came out of the captivity in Babylon, they continued in their sins and the result was that God multiplied the original sentence seven times making a 70 year sentence into a 490 year sentence. 7 x 70 = 490.
According to the sequence in Daniel 9:26, the Messiah was cut off, or crucified, at the end of the 62 weeks, which followed the 7 weeks, which only gives us 483 years. Since the sentence was for 490 years then it stands to reason that Israel still owes God 7 more years of the sentence. This is where so many people get into trouble. Many teach that the 490 years were consecutive and that they were completed 7 years after the crucifixion or 3 ½ years after, depending on which theory one goes by, and others say there is a gap in the sentence. Many reasons come from both sides. This is a major problem that has to be agreed upon before a reasonable understanding of the end times can even be looked at. This is the purpose of this study. To see if we can come to a reasonable, scriptural, logical, and agreeable understanding. To do this we must have a teachable attitude, have an open mind, always judge by scripture, and when using customs or traditions of the land, or people, they must always line up with scripture within a reasonable range. Traditions have many times added things to what God originally intended and we need to prayerfully consider this. Keep only what is according to the nature and pattern of God. When using sources outside the bible, always judge them by the bible. Many things are written, but not all things religious are by the Spirit of God.
If some are wondering, I have to establish a foundation to have something that helps us understand why most all prophecy teacher are always talking about these last 7 years, or the tribulation period, or the wrath of God, or whatever else they call it. What it amounts to is that Israel still owes God 7 more years of the 490 they were sentenced to serve in captivity somewhere besides their homeland and If Israel has no nation then the sentence is put on hold until they gain their nation (land) back. In 70 AD Israel ceased to be a nation and it wasn't until 1948 that they were even recognized as a nation again. Complete with original language, original land, original God, and in 67 the original Capital, Jerusalem. And by the way... It was the Holy City (Jerusalem) that the Angel spoke to Daniel about, not the whole of the land:
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city....
So 1948 isn't all that significant as far as finding a starting date for the beginning of these last 7 years. AND I WILL SAY RIGHT NOW THAT I IN NO WAY HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHEN IT WILL BEGIN BEFORE ANYONE SAYS ANYTHING. I AM NOT A DATE SETTER BY A LONG SHOT. I say this because there are so many who think they can calculate the dates when there is NO WAY that you can. I simply teach what is GOING to happen, not WHEN it will happen. And the capitals were simply to emphasize, not yelling ...lol
Got to leave this at that for a while. Will continue some either tonight or tomorrow. and if ya got a question, ask.
God bless :)
#15 Jul 11, 2012
you're right... and this is an area where we have to learn patience and learn how NOT to take offense. Reminds me... I did a teaching once of "offense". Come to find out that "offense" comes from a root word (forgot... it's been a while) which is the name of the little holder that you put the bait on in a mouse trap. It holds the "bait" until the mouse takes the bait and triggers the trap to spring, therefore killing the mouse. So you see, if we learn NOT to take the bait from the "offense" or trigger then we gain life by avoiding all the temptations that the offense holds. Interesting. And in that we gain patience and peace :)
Thanks for bringing that up :)
#16 Jul 11, 2012
The New Testament denies free will.
Romans 9:10-22:And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that Gods purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told,The elder will serve the younger. As it is written,Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? Is there injustice on Gods part? By no means! For he says to Moses,I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So it depends not upon mans will or exertion, but upon Gods mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh,I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth. So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then,Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder,Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
A more detailed examination here:
"Biblical Christianity Denies Free Will"
#17 Jul 11, 2012
The pretrib position is a house of cards.
Jesus said that he would return in the first century.
"If Jesus said he would be returning "quickly", and he said that 2000 years ago, what exactly is going on here? Do we have any information as to when the writers of the New Testament foretold the return of Jesus? Actually, we have very good information on that. We have nearly precise information. There is scriptural evidence that those who wrote about Jesus intended for him to come back during the lifetimes of those who first followed him. That's right... in the First Century.
First, let us look at the gospel of Mark, chapter 13.(When I reference the gospels, I will refer to them as "Mark" and "Matthew", even though these labels were attached to those texts by the Early Church-- the books are actually anonymous and no one knows who the true authors are). In this chapter, Jesus speaks of a "tribulation", nation rising against nation, earthquakes, and the coming of false Christs and false prophets, the stars falling from the sky, and the coming of the Son of Man "in the clouds with great power and glory". Then, in verse 30, he tells when this will happen. "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done."
Second, let us look at Matthew (copied from Mark), which contains the same story. The same earthquakes, false prophets, darkening sun, falling stars, etc., and the return of the Son of Man, "coming in the clouds with of heaven with power and great glory." And then in verse 34, he says when to look for all of this commotion: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Pretty conclusive.
Jesus makes it clear that he is speaking about the current generation of people. In Matthew 24:4 when the disciples asked Jesus about the end of the world, he "answered and said unto THEM", "Take heed that no man deceive you... ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars... Ye shall see the abomination... etc." He is clearly replying to them, telling them what they shall see. He says that THEY shall see these things. Read it for yourself. Then he concludes by saying: "THIS generation shall not pass" until he comes again. The evidence can be found in Mark chapter 13, starting from verse 5 onward. It is clear that he is speaking to his apostles, answering their inquiry. To say otherwise is to be dishonest.
And yet there is something even stronger than this. The same story is related in Matthew chapter 16. Yet this time, Jesus does not use the word "generation". He again describes how he will come in the glory of his father, with his angels, to judge men according to their works. Then he concludes by saying "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
That is the final nail in the coffin. Matt. 16:28 says there were some men standing there next to Jesus who will see his second coming, and it is totally clear that in Matthew 24:34 and Mark 13:30, Jesus believed the end of the world would come during the lifetimes of his apostles. Jesus says so himself. He thought that he was going to be returning in the First Century. He said: "The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15) Similar statements are to be found in Mark 9:1; 13:30; Matthew 10:23; 23:29-36; and Luke 12:49-50.
It is clear. There is no reason to doubt that the author of Mark wrote what he intended to write. Christian scholars claim that the book of Mark was written around the year 60 C.E., 35 years after the alleged death of Jesus, and well within the lifetimes of any of his followers. Whoever wrote the text believed that the Messiah would return during his lifetime. And as Matthew was constructed from Mark some decades later, whoever wrote Matthew simply copied this same information."
Excerpted from http://freethought.mbdojo.com/2ndcoming.html
#18 Jul 11, 2012
"...the bible itself provides ample evidence that Jesus was supposed to return in the First Century, some 1900 years ago. If he did, no one noticed. But, I don't expect that this proof will make a dent in most Christians. But I thought that I would point it out. The end of the world will not come anytime soon. Jesus will not "come quickly". No. What will happen is that you will continue to live, and work-- the world will continue to go on, past 2000, then 2010, then 2025, and so on, until you grow old and pass away. When you get to be old, at the end of your life, think of my writings. Remember that I told you so. You will never see the end of the world.
Some readers may point to the book of Revelation, and object to my conclusions. But let's honestly take a look at that book for a moment. Among much unintelligible ravings, the anonymous writer of Revelation clearly predicts the destruction of Rome (17:16-18), asserts that Nero, who was really dead, was yet alive (13:3), proclaims the immediate coming of Christ (1:7, 22:7, 12), the avenging of the persecuted prophets and apostles (18:20), the binding of Satan for a thousand years (20:2), and the establishment of God's Kingdom (21).
"We know how completely these expectations were disappointed. Jerusalem, where the temple at least was never to be violated, fell utterly, and the sanctuary was laid low never to rise again; while Rome, instead of being turned into a desert, still held her rank and fame. Nero, the Antichrist, was dead and never returned to life; but neither did the Christ come back to earth. The martyrs were not avenged, but fresh persecutions awaited the faithful. The kingdom of Satan held its own, and the Kingdom of God came not." The Bible for Learners, Vol. 3, pg. 655)"
#19 Jul 11, 2012
.......... Well, I would like to know if you feel there is any merit to the pre-tribulational rapture theory? I have been wondering about this for some time now. It certainly appears that World War 3 is at the door.
#20 Jul 11, 2012
one thing you are correct in. A pre-tribulational rapture doesn't have a chance of being correct. You have interesting ideas but what I have already started with Daniel totally is against what you are trying to say. The Apostles knew that they would not see Jesus return in their day and they knew it wasn't imminent. Peter knew how he would die and so did Paul so why would they teach a pre-trib doctrine if they both knew they would die and how? If the 490 years were completed by 70 AD then we missed the thousand year reign of Christ, which I assume you believe isn't literal. We ought to be through the Judgment Seat a thousand years ago and all have our glorified bodies and be in eternity.
Israel also wasn't looking for a servant Messiah either. They were looking for a conquering Messiah to defeat their enemies physically and gain ALL the land God promised them. Just as it is today, God is in plain view as He was then, but He doesn't look nor act like what people want. Like they say... you can't see the forest for the trees. The world thinks it has matured so much that they have no need of God when in actuality they need God more now than they ever have. They just have too much pride to admit it.
When trying to explain some of the things you listed above, First ask yourself... Does this fit the character of God? Does this fit His pattern of doing things? Is this done for love and righteousness? If not then search for the reason it doesn't. The whole of the Old Testament is an example for us to look to see what happens as the result of obedience and what happens because of disobedience. It is a physical example of the spiritual manifestation of what the New Testament was to be. Each testifies of the other. They are different but the same. The Old points to Christ and the New points back at Christ. You cannot understand one without understanding the other. What is so sad is that as complicated that seems to be a child can understand it yet the wise can't even see it. To understand God you have to see through His eyes.
In no way did Jesus ever indicate that He would return in their day. And "Freewill" is not as you seem to be thinking. Even when told to do something, even by God, you still have the right to refuse and choose the way your own will desires. Even Jesus, when He prayed on the Mt of Olives, "...Neverless... not MY will be done, but THINE..." speaking of God's will. God's will was for Jesus to die to reconcile man back to him and Jesus will was that He would rather not die but live, but He obeyed God's will rather than His own. In your examples up there, there is always a choice except where God has already willed that a thing must happen. These decisions were made before the world was even created. We are simply living out God's plan in real time. A necessary process but the end is set and that is one thing we have no choice in.
#21 Jul 11, 2012
No, I don't. It leaves too many holes unanswered unless you fill those empty spaces with assumptions or speculations and it has way too many contradictions. I remember reading a book someone gave me on pre-trib and in the first chapter alone the author had contradicted himself about 20 times. I quit reading it. But I've studied most all theories pretty well. I consider what I believe a theory, also because of the fact that Jesus said that not even He knew the day or the hour. But I do believe in the rapture absolutely but not pre, mid, or post. The more I write the more you will understand what I mean.
When someone says, "now having said that this could have meant and if that is so then this could possibly point towards this" How can you believe someone who teaches on assumptions and could haves? I'll be the first to tell you that there are many things I still don't understand but I know enough to refute unrealistic theories. I am constantly looking for revelation from people on the things I don't have it on yet. Thanks for asking :)
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