Oregon suicide law could be model for...

Oregon suicide law could be model for rest of nation

There are 143 comments on the Albany Democrat-Herald story from Jan 18, 2006, titled Oregon suicide law could be model for rest of nation. In it, Albany Democrat-Herald reports that:

After more than a decade of legal battles over assisted suicide, a Supreme Court ruling that affirmed states have the authority to regulate medical treatment of the terminally ill may help turn a landmark ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Albany Democrat-Herald.

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Ian

West Bridgewater, MA

#1 Jan 20, 2006
Just in case you're concerned about people choosing to end their own lives in dignity, please keep in mind that there is one state in America where people are being executed by doctors because they do not have the money to pay their bills.

Fifteen minutes of choking to death sounds like a lynching

This is from a friend's post in Livejournal

stouthunter (stouthunter) wrote,
@ 2005-12-30 14:56:00
http://stouthunter.livejournal.com/1310.html

Where was George Bush this time? Where was right to life?

http://cbs11tv.com/topstories/local_story_348...

What the story doesn't tell is she was (unlike Terry Schiavo) was conscious and responsive when the ventilator was turned off.

"Baylor Regional Medical Center, gave her family 10 days notice and then pulled the respirator themselves. They pulled it, without asking her, while Tirhas was still conscious and perfectly aware that she was being deliberately suffocated. They pulled it while her family was there to watch the process, even though the family disagreed with decision. Tirhas suffocated consciously and knowingly for about 15 minutes."

http://shotofpolitics.blogspot.com/2005/12/if...

Why no Republican intervention?
1) She wasn't white.
2) She had no insurance.
3) She was an immigrant, legal, but an immigrant.
Don't think it doesn't happen? I saw one patient denied the cath lab on Christmas eve because he had no insurance.

Where profits kill people is where I become enraged.

15 minutes to die. Fifteen minutes to slowly suffocate. Tookie Williams had a more merciful death. Someone justify that to me.

Where were all the media warriors that carried signs for Terry? Where was Frist? Where was Dobson? Where was Robertson? Where was Bush?

Fifteen minutes to choke like a lynching.

More:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/...
Neal

AOL

#2 Jan 25, 2006
Ian, good point - good post!

I've recently wondered if there will be any problem what-so-ever funding SS? Without national healthcare, meaning no healthcare - American longevity will be headed down, not up. As the rich get richer ... the rest die sooner (if hideously) from prolonged illnesses due to the lack of early detection, or,'real suicide'- to save their remaining family members from the burden of astronomical healthcare bills.

What a Country! As the rest of the (civilized) world endeavors to care for its citizens, basically just looking out for their own collective welfare, in the 'richest' nation in history 'they' only lookout for themselves! When will it get bad enough that the pitiful Republican-voting-dupes of the 'Red States' wake up to their own peril? Unfortunately, it's far easier to scare than to educate - No longer proud to be an American ~
Shane Matthews

Maple Ridge, Canada

#3 Jan 31, 2006
How typically baby-boomer-ish. I always wondered how this pampered and self-indulgent generation would handle having to face mortality after a lifetime of chasing eternal youth. It looks like we have our answer.

I have no problem with people offing themselves. However, they have no business enlisting the services of a physician to do so, nor should physicians have anything to do with either the decision nor the procurement of the means. If you lack the intestinal fortitude to do the deed yourself, you've got no business asking another to pull the trigger for you.

Med-school students are already asked if they'd be willing to terminate inconvenient unborn; I wonder if, a few years from now, they'll also be asked if they're willing to terminate inconvenient elderly?
Shane Matthews

Maple Ridge, Canada

#4 Jan 31, 2006
Ian wrote:
Just in case you're concerned about people choosing to end their own lives in dignity, please keep in mind that there is one state in America where people are being executed by doctors because they do not have the money to pay their bills.
Executed, or allowed to die? Indifference is not malice and inaction is not action. But I've discovered that many anti-establishment types are unable to make this distinction.
Ian wrote:
Fifteen minutes of choking to death sounds like a lynching
She would have been unconscious after the first minute or so. The fact that the heart continues to beat for 15 or 20 minutes after respiration ceases is not proof of consciousness. Your heart will continue to beat for a few minutes even if your head is cut off.
Ian wrote:
Where was George Bush this time? Where was right to life?...What the story doesn't tell is she was (unlike Terry Schiavo) was conscious and responsive when the ventilator was turned off. Why no Republican intervention?
1) She wasn't white.
2) She had no insurance.
3) She was an immigrant, legal, but an immigrant.
Don't think it doesn't happen? I saw one patient denied the cath lab on Christmas eve because he had no insurance.
This is the worst kind of speculation. You have no idea whether any of this played a role. You simply choose to believe it because that's what a family member chose to believe, and because it provides you with a convenient hook on which to hang George Bush. In this case of Terry Schiavo, whom did you believe--her parents, or her husband?
Ian wrote:
Where profits kill people is where I become enraged.
Save your stump speech. Profits didn't kill her. Her illness did. Would you work for free? Of course not. So why should doctors?
Ian wrote:
15 minutes to die. Fifteen minutes to slowly suffocate. Tookie Williams had a more merciful death. Someone justify that to me.
And about a minute to unconsciousness--which is in fact probably longer than it took Tookie Williams to be rendered senseless. You say that suffocation is a hideous death. First-hand accounts of survivors dispute you.
Ian wrote:
Where were all the media warriors that carried signs for Terry? Where was Frist? Where was Dobson? Where was Robertson? Where was Bush?
For that matter, where were you? Did you offer to pay her medical bills? What's that? You say you didn't know. Isn't it just possible, since there was no protracted legal battle in this case, that none of the gentlemen you mentioned knew either?
Shane Matthews

Maple Ridge, Canada

#5 Jan 31, 2006
Neal wrote:
Ian, good point - good post!

I've recently wondered if there will be any problem what-so-ever funding SS? Without national healthcare, meaning no healthcare - American longevity will be headed down, not up. As the rich get richer ... the rest die sooner (if hideously) from prolonged illnesses due to the lack of early detection, or,'real suicide'- to save their remaining family members from the burden of astronomical healthcare bills.

What a Country! As the rest of the (civilized) world endeavors to care for its citizens, basically just looking out for their own collective welfare, in the 'richest' nation in history 'they' only lookout for themselves! When will it get bad enough that the pitiful Republican-voting-dupes of the 'Red States' wake up to their own peril? Unfortunately, it's far easier to scare than to educate - No longer proud to be an American ~
Wrong, Neil. The greatest advances to life expectency in America came in the late 19th and early 20th centuries--before the advent of Medicare. And spare me the class-war drivel--it's typically the tool of someone on the losing side of history.
Neal

AOL

#6 Jan 31, 2006
Shame on Shane ... Sounds like we've got a real Hard-guy out there? There's an arrogance, that without a kind heart, can accompany good health. But as one declines over the years, becoming more and more dependent on society, their often painful demise becomes more than 'an option.' Oregon's Death With Dignity law has provided an option for years now; sorry Shame - can't blame the 'Boomer's' for its use - yet. And, contrary to it's blowhard critics, it's not been overused - let alone abused (and not everyone keeps a gun under their pillow).

For all the (hollow) concern shown by blowhards like Shame, their Survival-of-the-fittest attitude apparently kicks in with a vengeance AFTER Birth. Let's see: cut programs to fund daycare; eliminate Head-start; gut the public school system (in favor of private / religious); deny National Healthcare (continue skyrocketing rates affordable by 'your preferred class'); unaffordable collage tuition; astronomical home prices; break the Unions; loss of Social Security and / or retirement pensions; deny eldercare .... Nope, their ONLY Concern is control over women - period

And look at the aggressive and vulgar terms they frame every 'debate.' Black vs. white - My-way or the highway garbage that does nothing to solve anything. They continue to neglect our social ills, while providing cover for their Republican operatives, then both feed themselves first - and most. Don't shrug off "Class-warfare," I know it's a knife in the side of those advocating survival-of-the-fittest - but it's real, and it's intensity is ratcheting - again. When society begins again to look out for its collective self, lone wolves like yourself will be chased back into the hills.

You're a classic apologist for those who'd drink to the demise of the less fortunate - as long as their demise continued to line your pockets. Or, have you done it the hard way - suffered - now demand other's suffer as you have? Are you gonna live hard, then go down in a blaze of glory? Well dude, I gotta hand it to you / your kind - if not in Oregon - you're 'Winning.' Just today- you've got a new "Associate Justice" that's sure to enshrine your sick & secrete desires......So why all the Whining?... Oh - that's right - you want Oregon too!
Shane Matthews

Maple Ridge, Canada

#7 Jan 31, 2006
Neal wrote:
Shame on Shane ... Sounds like we've got a real Hard-guy out there? There's an arrogance, that without a kind heart, can accompany good health.
This is mindless emotionalism. It has no place in public policy. History shows us that a “kind heart” can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean, without being held up to objective criteria. Hitler thought he was doing the world a favour too.
Neal wrote:
But as one declines over the years, becoming more and more dependent on society, their often painful demise becomes more than 'an option.' Oregon's Death With Dignity law has provided an option for years now; sorry Shame - can't blame the 'Boomer's' for its use - yet.
But I can blame the boomers for voting for it. Without significant boomer support, where do you think this law would have gone? It’s also interesting to note that boomers stand the most to gain from this law, in both inheritance and in not having to care for aging relatives.
Neal wrote:
For all the (hollow) concern shown by blowhards like Shame, their Survival-of-the-fittest attitude apparently kicks in with a vengeance AFTER Birth. Let's see: cut programs to fund daycare; eliminate Head-start; gut the public school system (in favor of private / religious); deny National Healthcare (continue skyrocketing rates affordable by 'your preferred class'); unaffordable collage tuition; astronomical home prices; break the Unions; loss of Social Security and / or retirement pensions; deny eldercare .... Nope, their ONLY Concern is control over women - period
Wrong again. Private schools only spend about half as much to educate a child as a typical public school, yet do a better job. Quality daycare can be had for less if you’re willing to take the time and effort to find it. University tuition is expensive, true, but local colleges can be quite reasonable. Plenty of cheap houses out on the country. Financial reality and competition is what broke the unions, not government policy.
Neal wrote:
And look at the aggressive and vulgar terms they frame every 'debate.' Black vs. white - My-way or the highway garbage that does nothing to solve anything. They continue to neglect our social ills, while providing cover for their Republican operatives, then both feed themselves first - and most. Don't shrug off "Class-warfare," I know it's a knife in the side of those advocating survival-of-the-fittest - but it's real, and it's intensity is ratcheting - again. When society begins again to look out for its collective self, lone wolves like yourself will be chased back into the hills.
Dream on. With the need to compete with other countries, I don’t see a return to Keynesian economics and big labour anytime soon. Union membership has been declining for decades. I really don’t see why I should have to work hard enough to feed my family and someone else’s.
Neal wrote:
You're a classic apologist for those who'd drink to the demise of the less fortunate - as long as their demise continued to line your pockets.
Less fortunate, or less motivated? Do you even recognize a distinction?
Neal wrote:
Or, have you done it the hard way - suffered - now demand other's suffer as you have? Are you gonna live hard, then go down in a blaze of glory? Well dude, I gotta hand it to you / your kind - if not in Oregon - you're 'Winning.' Just today- you've got a new "Associate Justice" that's sure to enshrine your sick & secrete desires......So why all the Whining?... Oh - that's right - you want Oregon too!
You’re the one doing all the whining, Neal. The spite and bitterness in your posts would choke a Missouri mule. Your problem is that you think like a loser. You also write like one. And that practically guarantees you’ll always be one. Enjoy being on the losing side of history.
Shane Matthews

Maple Ridge, Canada

#8 Jan 31, 2006
Neal wrote:
Shame on Shane ... Sounds like we've got a real Hard-guy out there? There's an arrogance, that without a kind heart, can accompany good health.
This is mindless emotionalism. It has no place in public policy. History shows us that a “kind heart” can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean, without being held up to objective criteria. Hitler thought he was doing the world a favour too.
Neal wrote:
But as one declines over the years, becoming more and more dependent on society, their often painful demise becomes more than 'an option.' Oregon's Death With Dignity law has provided an option for years now; sorry Shame - can't blame the 'Boomer's' for its use - yet.
But I can blame the boomers for voting for it. Without significant boomer support, where do you think this law would have gone? It’s also interesting to note that boomers stand the most to gain from this law, in both inheritance and in not having to care for aging relatives.
Neal wrote:
For all the (hollow) concern shown by blowhards like Shame, their Survival-of-the-fittest attitude apparently kicks in with a vengeance AFTER Birth. Let's see: cut programs to fund daycare; eliminate Head-start; gut the public school system (in favor of private / religious); deny National Healthcare (continue skyrocketing rates affordable by 'your preferred class'); unaffordable collage tuition; astronomical home prices; break the Unions; loss of Social Security and / or retirement pensions; deny eldercare .... Nope, their ONLY Concern is control over women - period
Wrong again. Private schools only spend about half as much to educate a child as a typical public school, yet do a better job. Quality daycare can be had for less if you’re willing to take the time and effort to find it. University tuition is expensive, true, but local colleges can be quite reasonable. Plenty of cheap houses out on the country. Financial reality and competition is what broke the unions, not government policy.
Neal wrote:
And look at the aggressive and vulgar terms they frame every 'debate.' Black vs. white - My-way or the highway garbage that does nothing to solve anything. They continue to neglect our social ills, while providing cover for their Republican operatives, then both feed themselves first - and most. Don't shrug off "Class-warfare," I know it's a knife in the side of those advocating survival-of-the-fittest - but it's real, and it's intensity is ratcheting - again. When society begins again to look out for its collective self, lone wolves like yourself will be chased back into the hills.
Dream on. With the need to compete with other countries, I don’t see a return to Keynesian economics and big labour anytime soon. Union membership has been declining for decades. I really don’t see why I should have to work hard enough to feed my family and someone else’s.
Neal wrote:
You're a classic apologist for those who'd drink to the demise of the less fortunate - as long as their demise continued to line your pockets.
Less fortunate, or less motivated? Do you even recognize a distinction?
Neal wrote:
Or, have you done it the hard way - suffered - now demand other's suffer as you have? Are you gonna live hard, then go down in a blaze of glory? Well dude, I gotta hand it to you / your kind - if not in Oregon - you're 'Winning.' Just today- you've got a new "Associate Justice" that's sure to enshrine your sick & secrete desires......So why all the Whining?... Oh - that's right - you want Oregon too!
You’re the one doing all the whining, Neal. The spite and bitterness in your posts would choke a Missouri mule. Your problem is that you think like a loser. You also write like one. And that practically guarantees you’ll always be one. Enjoy being on the losing side of history.
Shane Matthews

Maple Ridge, Canada

#9 Jan 31, 2006
P.S. When should this instinct of mine have kicked in, Neal--BEFORE I was born?
Neal wrote:
For all the (hollow) concern shown by blowhards like Shame, their Survival-of-the-fittest attitude apparently kicks in with a vengeance AFTER Birth.
Neal

AOL

#10 Jan 31, 2006
Public Policy is, and should be shaped by reality; and reality is often emotional.

Without "significant boomer support" (what's your dig with "Boomers?") little if anything would 'pass' nowadays - there's even one in the White House! The majority of Oregon voters passed this law - TWICE!! And what's with this "Blame-game" of yours? The credit for this law stems from it's widespread support - get that? CREDIT - not Blame...

Got the feeling, if given the chance, someone might pull the plug on YOU..? Sounds like you may have earned that desire - on someone's part? And keep in mind, not all people are as greedy as you fear; many (apparently unlike yourself) will appreciate the opportunity to pass on the cost of heroic efforts to artificially extende their lives to their offspring - I would.

So: "Private schools only spend about half as much to educate a child as a typical public school" That's getting old... "Private / Religious Schools" don't have the same requirements as the Public School System - they get to pick & choose ... And who most often can afford to send their prodigy to the private realm? That's Right! But the private places are a 'wonderful' way to further spread the "Classes."

Let's see .... that takes care of your take on the school system - but it (conveniently) left out: daycare; Head-start; National Healthcare; unaffordable collage tuition; astronomical home prices; Social Security / retirement pensions; and eldercare. But please - do spare me / us the Wrong-wing Rhetoric on these ~

Yes, we have to compete with other nations; finally. Actually, the only reason we 'cared' about our citizenry was due to how bad we looked worldwide in comparison to Communism. And it didn't take long after its formal demise that we pulled the rug from under our needy... So we'd best continue to stomp those Unions! Pretty soon we can all work at Walmart! Problem is, we couldn't afford their prices!!

Says Shane: "I really don’t see why I should have to work hard enough to feed my family and someone else’s." ---That about sums it up ... look out for only you and yours, to where with the rest of us? Like I said, that 'works,' as long as you're strong ... Just don't get sick, injured, or old ~

You'd most likely label anyone "less fortunate," as "less motivated;" the rest of us might consider them victims of circumstance, or any number of reality-based difficulties ... for instance - Affordable Healthcare (the original subject here).

And finally: the name calling ... Yep - your kind is pretty well defined. So you really think you're winning? You don't sound wealthy enough to be as isolated from reality as your delusions - but hang in there - you've got George on your side (lol)!
Shane Matthews

Maple Ridge, Canada

#11 Jan 31, 2006
No, Neal. Reality is that which is. Emotion reflects with people’s interpretations thereof, not the underlying facts. There is nothing subjective about reality. Curious that no one thought to raise the issue BEFORE the boomers became the dominant voters though, isn’t it?

Is there someone waiting to pull the plug on me? Don’t you wish. I agree life should not be artificially extended. But nor should physicians be the ones to prematurely terminate it. Killing people is not medicine.

In practice, private schools accept pretty much anyone who can pay the entrance fees. The point is that most of the cost of the public system is unionized staff’s salaries, not books and wheelchair ramps. Like you wouldn’t send your kid to private school if you could afford it. By the way, I addressed college tuition, health care, daycare, and house prices in my post; read it again.

“How bad we looked compared to communism”? What the hell have you been smoking? Yeah, shame on us for not murdering people by the millions in Stalin’s gulags or Pol Pot’s Killing Fields.

Sure, you can work at Wal-Mart...or you can teach yourself a trade or a profession and make more money. Unskilled labour is not the only job choice in the Universe.

These “victims of circumstance” that you constantly parade about in Dickensian fashion—are you sure they’re not just victims of their own stupidity? There is little adversity you can’t overcome if you use your brain AND put your back into it.

Yep. I’ve got George Bush, the corporate bogeyman, professionals, skilled tradesmen, and business owners large and small on my side. Who’s on yours, besides the chronically underachieving?
Gary

Eugene, OR

#12 Jan 31, 2006
King George can keep his totalitarian government the heck out of Oregon. If you don't like the suicide law, please keep your distance from Oregon because you are probably no more than a self-inflated religious zealot. We hang those sort of people here...lol
Shane Matthews

Canada

#13 Jan 31, 2006
Gary wrote:
King George can keep his totalitarian government the heck out of Oregon. If you don't like the suicide law, please keep your distance from Oregon because you are probably no more than a self-inflated religious zealot. We hang those sort of people here...lol
So anyone who disagrees with you is a Bible-thumping knuckle-dragger, eh? No wonder you guys keep losing elections.

How is George Bush's administration more totalitarian than others? Last I checked, he had to answer to Congress and the Senate and the electorate like anyone else. So the Republicans have a lock on the Oval Office, both Houses of Congress. It was the people who put them there. Democrats can only dream of such status at this stage, but they did have it once. It's time they asked themselves some hard questions about why they lost it.
Gary

Eugene, OR

#14 Jan 31, 2006
Shane Matthews wrote:
<quoted text>

So anyone who disagrees with you is a Bible-thumping knuckle-dragger, eh? No wonder you guys keep losing elections.

How is George Bush's administration more totalitarian than others? Last I checked, he had to answer to Congress and the Senate and the electorate like anyone else. So the Republicans have a lock on the Oval Office, both Houses of Congress. It was the people who put them there. Democrats can only dream of such status at this stage, but they did have it once. It's time they asked themselves some hard questions about why they lost it.
For the record: I am a registered Republican...so applying your own thinking: just wondering if anyone who disagrees with you is a bleeding heart liberal?

There is no problem knowing how the democrats lost an illegal election in 2000.

The Patriot Act is in violation of our constitution. The treatment of prisoners of war from Iraq is in violation of the Geneva Convention. The national guard is being used as a back door draft into the services. These are all tactics of a totalitarian government. And the list is endless.

Control through spreading fear and using intimidation as fertilizer. Robbing all the social sciences of funds; watching people die because they can no longer afford medication. Wiping out the middle class and establishing a plutocratic oligarchy. Impeach Bush now!
Neal

AOL

#15 Feb 1, 2006
So: "reality is often emotional," says I ... Didn't think I'd have to explain that one; but if one lacks emotion, I guess it could be described as subjective.

If the end of life's not to be "artificially extended," and physicians are to have nothing to do with ending it...---what's your (barbaric) solution? Now make it tough! Maybe ... the "Final Solution?" Ferret-out all those you describe as unworthy or incapable, stuff them into cattle cars, set up the camps (again) down there in "Caly-forny-ya" - then do-it to-it? Did you watch the piece on Nuremberg on PBS (yesterday)?... Maybe you should have - you and Herman Goering would have been great cell mates! Think he'd have shared his pill? "Killing people is not medicine" - but some 'medicine' kills people ~

Back to school! So: Teachers should work for room & board (like Nuns)? And come to think of it - I can't remember the last time I seen a private school bus go by? That must be quite a savings! And all those developmentally disabled...-- that's right, you'd save the cost of their special education by, by what?---sending them into the streets with a tin cup? I don't even think the benevolent folks at Walmart are hiring their type..? And what about all those learning 'English as a second language'(now here I'd bet we'd find some common ground)- they require a lot more time and effort than my kids would... And, I wouldn't send my kid/s to any private religious school; and, I'd have to give some very serious thought about abandoning our neighborhood school for something more 'elite.' Silly me! And... I'll have to take your word on addressing all those other concerns ... It must have been quite blatant.

Don't smoke - anything. Just keep a clear head and try to connect the dots... Stalin was too far back, and Pot was too recent - try the time in-between, when the world was comparing 'US' with 'them'- carefully accessing which country did the most for its people. The US had to do better than Mississippi! Sure, they're just the other extreme of a governing concept, perhaps as noble in their original desire as we were, but being they had far less resources to work with (don't count tundra), their collapse came a bit sooner than ours ... Give us time - we're gaining!

You mention "a trade or a profession" - without Unions, trade wages would sink to that of about this time last century. And as far as a profession - how many Dentists can one community support? What about semiskilled labor? I guess if we can out-hustle that guy (or girl) in China, or work for less than 20 cents an hour, we've got it made! I wonder where he shops..?

"victims of their own stupidity?" Again, how telling... Tell me when we hit the Compassionate (part) Conservatism?

"I’ve got George Bush, the corporate bogeyman, professionals, skilled tradesmen, and business owners large and small on my side." Take away the "skilled tradesmen and the professionals," and sure enough - there hides the problem! Offshored corporations... And you don't have the "professionals" - they're dependent on a cliental that can pay their fees. They're more than willing to pay their solid share of taxes, and they support public education; those I know use it... Just remember how much "King George" 'won' by... And considering his ratings right now (the State of Our Union doesn't impress), you'd think a wise man would govern toward that middle? But that's right - we've a winner-take-all form of Government, and winner or not - he's goin for it all!

You'd asked me what it was like being a looser..? I've considered asking you the same question? Few in this nation are winning; if you are, it must be by hook or crook. That's the problem with the Republican dupes and shock-troops - they don't even realize they're pawns - until can get home (if they get home alive) missing some parts? And those are only the most obvious 'losers'- your turn'll come!
Neal

AOL

#16 Feb 1, 2006
So: "reality is often emotional," says I ... Didn't think I'd have to explain that one; but if one lacks emotion, I guess it could be described as subjective.

If the end of life's not to be "artificially extended," and physicians are to have nothing to do with ending it...---what's your (barbaric) solution? Now make it tough! Maybe ... the "Final Solution?" Ferret-out all those you describe as unworthy or incapable, stuff them into cattle cars, set up the camps (again) down there in "Caly-forny-ya" - then do-it to-it? Did you watch the piece on Nuremberg on PBS (yesterday)?... Maybe you should have - you and Herman Goering would have been great cell mates! Think he'd have shared his pill? "Killing people is not medicine" - but some 'medicine' kills people ~

Back to school! So: Teachers should work for room & board (like Nuns)? And come to think of it - I can't remember the last time I seen a private school bus go by? That must be quite a savings! And all those developmentally disabled...-- that's right, you'd save the cost of their special education by, by what?---sending them into the streets with a tin cup? I don't even think the benevolent folks at Walmart are hiring their type..? And what about all those learning 'English as a second language'(now here I'd bet we'd find some common ground)- they require a lot more time and effort than my kids would... And, I wouldn't send my kid/s to any private religious school; and, I'd have to give some very serious thought about abandoning our neighborhood school for something more 'elite.' Silly me! And... I'll have to take your word on addressing all those other concerns ... It must have been quite blatant.

Don't smoke - anything. Just keep a clear head and try to connect the dots... Stalin was too far back, and Pot was too recent - try the time in-between, when the world was comparing 'US' with 'them'- carefully accessing which country did the most for its people. The US had to do better than Mississippi! Sure, they're just the other extreme of a governing concept, perhaps as noble in their original desire as we were, but being they had far less resources to work with (don't count tundra), their collapse came a bit sooner than ours ... Give us time - we're gaining!
Neal

AOL

#17 Feb 1, 2006
Shane .......... You mention "a trade or a profession" - without Unions, trade wages would sink to that of about this time last century. And as far as a profession - how many Dentists can one community support? What about semiskilled labor? I guess if we can out-hustle that guy (or girl) in China, or work for less than 20 cents an hour, we've got it made! I wonder where he shops..?

"victims of their own stupidity?" Again, how telling... Tell me when we hit the Compassionate (part) Conservatism?

"I’ve got George Bush, the corporate bogeyman, professionals, skilled tradesmen, and business owners large and small on my side." Take away the "skilled tradesmen and the professionals," and sure enough - there hides the problem! Offshored corporations... And you don't have the "professionals" - they're dependent on a cliental that can pay their fees. They're more than willing to pay their solid share of taxes, and they support public education; those I know use it... Just remember how much "King George" 'won' by... And considering his ratings right now (the State of Our Union doesn't impress), you'd think a wise man would govern toward that middle? But that's right - we've a winner-take-all form of Government, and winner or not - he's goin for it all!

You'd asked me what it was like being a looser..? I've considered asking you the same question? Few in this nation are winning; if you are, it must be by hook or crook. That's the problem with the Republican dupes and shock-troops - they don't even realize they're pawns - until can get home (if they get home alive) missing some parts? And those are only the most obvious 'losers'- your turn'll come!
----------
Next you're after Gary..? Let's see.... "a Bible-thumping knuckle-dragger" ---I never seen that? Is that a persecution complex of some sort? And Gary ain't loosing elections - he's got 4 or 5 US House seats; 1 of 2 US Senators; The State Senate; the State Supreme Court; the Governorship; Every State Executive, and more Mayors than we can shake a stick at! No, Oregon's doing good - and don't visit!

I think Gary may have meant 'Fascist,' and it's become quite evident to us as we watch - like this evening -Der Furor sweet-talk the nation with 'Bipartisanship.' His spinsters (Rove & Crew) play on Daddy's 'compassionate conservatism' theme, then, unlike daddy - dubbed a political wimp - he bolts to the Far-wrong every chance he gets! These guys thought it was all over two Novembers ago ... So they've seized upon this suspicious 'victory' and are doing as much damage, and reaping as many monetary rewards, as possible before - as even Karl fears - the nation Wakes-up, kicks their butts out, and like Old Orleans, takes many years (if ever) to recover ~

Go Gary! I was also a Big Bad once "R" myself - Reagan fixed that!
Neal

AOL

#18 Feb 1, 2006
Kind of a funky system here... First it says I've used too many words, then it won't accept 'half my post'.... Then later it does --- Sorry folks, I'm new to this one... Neal
Second Thoughts

Boron, CA

#19 Feb 1, 2006
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>

For the record: I am a registered Republican...so applying your own thinking: just wondering if anyone who disagrees with you is a bleeding heart liberal?

There is no problem knowing how the democrats lost an illegal election in 2000.

The Patriot Act is in violation of our constitution. The treatment of prisoners of war from Iraq is in violation of the Geneva Convention. The national guard is being used as a back door draft into the services. These are all tactics of a totalitarian government. And the list is endless.

Control through spreading fear and using intimidation as fertilizer. Robbing all the social sciences of funds; watching people die because they can no longer afford medication. Wiping out the middle class and establishing a plutocratic oligarchy. Impeach Bush now!
Dead men have no rights.
Second Thoughts

Boron, CA

#20 Feb 1, 2006
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>

For the record: I am a registered Republican...so applying your own thinking: just wondering if anyone who disagrees with you is a bleeding heart liberal?

There is no problem knowing how the democrats lost an illegal election in 2000.

The Patriot Act is in violation of our constitution. The treatment of prisoners of war from Iraq is in violation of the Geneva Convention. The national guard is being used as a back door draft into the services. These are all tactics of a totalitarian government. And the list is endless.

Control through spreading fear and using intimidation as fertilizer. Robbing all the social sciences of funds; watching people die because they can no longer afford medication. Wiping out the middle class and establishing a plutocratic oligarchy. Impeach Bush now!
I suppose you would rather be one of the victims in the next 9/11? Thenks to Bush there hasn't been a repeat.

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