Bob

Big Rapids, MI

#41 Jan 30, 2013
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Hope you haven't bred any other mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, bigots......
Nope...... Not one kid has turned into a teabagger!
Chip

Madison, WI

#42 Jan 30, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
It really does get tiring having to remind the one that made the point of what the point was.
"In fact Obama was the attorney that filed suit against the banks on behalf of acorn to force banks to make the loans that the banks now refer to as "toxic assets"
Saying the regulations made it easier to make fraudulent loans forced the banks to make them is like saying the woman wearing sexy clothing forced the man to rape her. Like saying because someone left the money out on the counter forced the other to steal it. Like leaving the keys in the car forced the thief to steal it. Like leaving the front door unlocked forced the burglar to steal everything. Seriously? Are you really that devoid of the line between right and wrong?
There were more than one cause for the financial meltdown. It wasn't because Obama was one of the attorneys that sued to end the red-lining.
If anything this only goes to prove we need more regulations. In England, and as I remember Canada, took over the banks that did it there and then sold the assets to other financial concerns that signed papers not to repeat anything like that.
Oh, and it wasn't the banks that referred to those loans as toxic assets. It was the regulators and other honest economic experts. The banks are still doing it. Bundling of those "toxic loans" and selling them off as investments is still legal.
CEO's are paid to make money for investors, giving them the tools to do so without risk is just plain stupid policy. In the end you can complain about the CEO's all you want, its irrelavant. What is relavant is the democrats creating policy that allows them to do something that they wouldn't have done in a free market system.

There is nothing illegal for the banks to bundle these "toxic loans" and selling them off as an investment, as long as the people purchasing the investment are aware of the risks.

Unlike you, I think our country is the greatest in the world, therefore I find it unecessary to suggest that we follow other countries who are worse off.
Chip

Madison, WI

#43 Jan 30, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
And just who are you going to rely on to inform you who is refusing to work. We have SO MANY charity organizations and churches in this country that if they could handle the load we would not have this problem to be arguing about.
And I don't disagree with your "belief" in if you work hard enough you will make your way in this life. I just know that's not as much a reality as so many would like to believe it is. Tell it to all those people who worked hard all their lives and saved and invested because they knew they wouldn't be able to, or for that matter didn't want to work until the grave, were ready to retire and because of others lost it all right at the time they were planning on reaping the fruits of their life of working. But then that too was their fault because they just didn't do that right either now isn't it. It's a nice Polly Anna theory though. There are far more who have worked harder and not made it than those who have worked hard and have made it.
Believe it or not the economy is not in your hands. And believe it or not the economy is not in the hands of the government. It's in the hands of the wealthiest and most powerful. And the most powerful are not in Washington.
And if you don't believe life is fair or even is supposed to be fair, what's your beef with others tying to tip the scale to their advantage away from you? What's your gripe with the government taxing you on the money you earned? I mean life isn't fair, is it. Just accept it trudge on.
Thanks for letting us all know you hate our country and the freedom people died to protect. Real class act.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#44 Jan 30, 2013
Chip wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for letting us all know you hate our country and the freedom people died to protect. Real class act.
Then you don't understand that wanting to improve on and stop what damages and causes crisis' is not hating our country.

You would have been considered a Tory during and after the revolutionary period.

Nothing left to say.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Farmington, MI

#45 Jan 30, 2013
Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope...... Not one kid has turned into a teabagger!
You mean there is more than one...... Have you registered them with the govt?
Chip

Rockford, IL

#46 Jan 30, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you don't understand that wanting to improve on and stop what damages and causes crisis' is not hating our country.
You would have been considered a Tory during and after the revolutionary period.
Nothing left to say.
Improve on by replicating policy from countries with worse economies, sounds smart.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#47 Jan 30, 2013
Chip wrote:
<quoted text>
Improve on by replicating policy from countries with worse economies, sounds smart.
Ya know what's wrong with rabid patriots? They don't think. They only react. They get comfortable with the devil they know and what they don't know is what they fear the devil is.
"Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." - Thomas Jefferson

There is nothing that has advanced to success without first experiencing failure(s). And it can be an advantage to seeing how others have "failed" because the what not to do has already been exposed. What it doesn't necessarily mean is the whole is a failure.

The U.S. economy is still the largest in the world so it can only look like we are doing better than a European country. Like comparing a failure of say England to the failure of Louisiana. Like comparing a failure of Germany to a failure in Montana. Canada was the last large industrialized country to be affected by the recession yet still fared better than we. Even though slightly.

My point being don't be too quick to look at another country as being worse off from their "policies" when their entire country would compare to one of our states.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#48 Jan 30, 2013
Here's one example of what I was talking about the banksters. And relating to my response above. How Goldman Sachs wrecked the Greek economy.
"Goldman had cut a secret deal with the Greek government in power then. Their game: to conceal a massive budget deficit. Goldman's fake loss was the Greek government's fake gain.

Goldman would get repayment of its “loss” from the government at loan-shark rates.

The point is, through this crazy and costly legerdemain, Greece's right-wing free-market government was able to pretend its deficits never exceeded 3 percent of GDP.

Cool. Fraudulent but cool."
http://truthlover.newsvine.com/_news/2011/11/...
Bob

Big Rapids, MI

#49 Jan 31, 2013
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>You mean there is more than one...... Have you registered them with the govt?
Of course...... Haven't you done the same with your rugrats?

Looking forward to the day when your daughters get to register for the draft.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Fenton, MI

#50 Jan 31, 2013
Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course...... Haven't you done the same with your rugrats?
Looking forward to the day when your daughters get to register for the draft.
Daughter USAF Sec Forces 6 year tour, many countries already.... Boy, University, Last year--Selective service registered......
Chip

Madison, WI

#51 Jan 31, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
Here's one example of what I was talking about the banksters. And relating to my response above. How Goldman Sachs wrecked the Greek economy.
"Goldman had cut a secret deal with the Greek government in power then. Their game: to conceal a massive budget deficit. Goldman's fake loss was the Greek government's fake gain.
Goldman would get repayment of its “loss” from the government at loan-shark rates.
The point is, through this crazy and costly legerdemain, Greece's right-wing free-market government was able to pretend its deficits never exceeded 3 percent of GDP.
Cool. Fraudulent but cool."
http://truthlover.newsvine.com/_news/2011/11/...
Sure that was probably the reason for the collapse. Had nothing to do with 30 years of out of control social programs, or companies not wanting to hire in Greece and pay 28.06% in social security contributions.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#52 Jan 31, 2013
Chip wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure that was probably the reason for the collapse. Had nothing to do with 30 years of out of control social programs, or companies not wanting to hire in Greece and pay 28.06% in social security contributions.
\
So what you're saying is when someone has a fractured bone in their leg it's just as well to have someone come along and amputate the leg.

Let me try and make the point clear(er) for you. Yes Greece's economy has pretty much always been on the tipping edge. They have zero natural resources to draw on and depend heavily on exterior sources. BUT, along comes the wonderful Goldman Sachs free market banksters and convinces the Greek Conservative free marketeers that a scheme will save them through an accounting ploy when all that was intended was to fill the ceilingless vaults of the profiteers.

Adam Smith warned of this very same self interested only mind set when he advocated capitalism.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#53 Jan 31, 2013
I forgot to add; if you would care to check Goldman Sachs was doing the same basic thing all over the world. And yes even here.

So to get rid of the social "obligations" we should just institute a policy that whomever can no longer work or find work we'll just eliminate the excess population and figure out how to deal with the resulting out-of-control inflation created by full employment.
Chip

Madison, WI

#54 Jan 31, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>\
So what you're saying is when someone has a fractured bone in their leg it's just as well to have someone come along and amputate the leg.
Let me try and make the point clear(er) for you. Yes Greece's economy has pretty much always been on the tipping edge. They have zero natural resources to draw on and depend heavily on exterior sources. BUT, along comes the wonderful Goldman Sachs free market banksters and convinces the Greek Conservative free marketeers that a scheme will save them through an accounting ploy when all that was intended was to fill the ceilingless vaults of the profiteers.
Adam Smith warned of this very same self interested only mind set when he advocated capitalism.
Being a little dramatic are we? Goldman pocketed 600 million Euros, Greece had total debt of 355.7 BILLION Euros. So Goldman contributed to .16% of Greece’s total debt, and you say “How Goldman Sachs wrecked the Greek economy” Seems to me you want to talk about a pin prick on the leg and ignore the chainsaw.
Troll Hunter

Greenville, MI

#55 Jan 31, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
I forgot to add; if you would care to check Goldman Sachs was doing the same basic thing all over the world. And yes even here.
So to get rid of the social "obligations" we should just institute a policy that whomever can no longer work or find work we'll just eliminate the excess population and figure out how to deal with the resulting out-of-control inflation created by full employment.
Yes! And we should start with retired people! Bunch of economic leeches! The money from medicare and social security can be better spent on tax cuts for millionaires like me! Sure, a huge number of old and infirm people will die, but the important thing is that my tax money should not go to supporting unproductive members of society.
Chip

Madison, WI

#56 Jan 31, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
I forgot to add; if you would care to check Goldman Sachs was doing the same basic thing all over the world. And yes even here.
So to get rid of the social "obligations" we should just institute a policy that whomever can no longer work or find work we'll just eliminate the excess population and figure out how to deal with the resulting out-of-control inflation created by full employment.
Didn't say we need to get rid of social programs, just saying they need to be controlled better.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#57 Jan 31, 2013
Chip wrote:
<quoted text>
Being a little dramatic are we? Goldman pocketed 600 million Euros, Greece had total debt of 355.7 BILLION Euros. So Goldman contributed to .16% of Greece’s total debt, and you say “How Goldman Sachs wrecked the Greek economy” Seems to me you want to talk about a pin prick on the leg and ignore the chainsaw.
So it's irrelevant to you that Goldman Sachs actually increased Greece's debt through a phony funds transfer and then made $600million, using your number, doing it.

So it's okay with you that as long as there is money to be made it doesn't matter how it's made. Hum. Okay.

Anyway the Greece situation was just an example point of how looking at another country and comparing to our own isn't all it seems. Especially seeing as Goldman Sachs has been doing the same thing here. http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12996-goldm...
But hey, that's just the free market capitalist system.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#58 Jan 31, 2013
Chip wrote:
<quoted text>
Didn't say we need to get rid of social programs, just saying they need to be controlled better.
But controlling them better requires oversight. That requires money to pay people to do it. That requires taxes. And taxes are a bad thing and to be eliminated and expenditures cut.

So how does one cut expenditures, cut taxes while controlling the system better.

And just remember the government can't defraud itself. The government is defrauded by private business recipients of those tax dollars. So lets deregulate business more.

Do you see the convolution?
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Southfield, MI

#59 Jan 31, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
But controlling them better requires oversight. That requires money to pay people to do it. That requires taxes. And taxes are a bad thing and to be eliminated and expenditures cut.
So how does one cut expenditures, cut taxes while controlling the system better.
And just remember the government can't defraud itself. The government is defrauded by private business recipients of those tax dollars. So lets deregulate business more.
Do you see the convolution?
Any numbers on how many employees at the Dept of Ag, State, Education, Justice, Treasury...... Let's start there..... Avg Pay and Benefits costs too..... By sticking the makers with huge tax burdens the govt is forcing downsizing by those makers because they are sick of see non producers soaking them...
Chip

Madison, WI

#60 Jan 31, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
So it's irrelevant to you that Goldman Sachs actually increased Greece's debt through a phony funds transfer and then made $600million, using your number, doing it.
So it's okay with you that as long as there is money to be made it doesn't matter how it's made. Hum. Okay.
Anyway the Greece situation was just an example point of how looking at another country and comparing to our own isn't all it seems. Especially seeing as Goldman Sachs has been doing the same thing here. http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/12996-goldm...
But hey, that's just the free market capitalist system.
I don't know enough about how the deals were done to argue one way or the other if it was right or not. What I'm saying is that in total the amount of profits Goldman made on the deal wouldn't chage the outcome of Greece's financial problems because it is just one needle in a haystack of 30 years of bad government policy.

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