Mike

United States

#115 Apr 10, 2013
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>I have one. A good one. Have a couple different ones in fact. I've served this country, was lucky to lucky to land a good job, and I couldn't be happier both earlier in my life and again today.

**********

A lot of people? That means you and your 4 or 5 other personalities you throw around and hide behind on Topix and your every day? lol yeah right.
Dude what are you trying to say? You need your meds now! Jason it will only get worse the longer you wait.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#116 Apr 12, 2013
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
I used it because despite the somewhat small sampling there were steps and numerous checks and balances incorporated into the case control methods. Flaws if any are handled very well and I believe it is a reliable study. Kellerman addresses the numerous criticisms of the study put out mainly by the NRA.#13 specifically addresses one of your concerns but there are others that do as well.
If you don't like this study there are quite a few others out there that reached the same conclusions as this one.
Here's another one I found interesting. I'm not familiar with any of the control measures used or the sampling but it essentially reaches the same conclusions as Kellerman. That itself is STRIKING. Its essentially a very interesting and informative interactive database. You can reset values and look at each state's stats/databases individually. Take at look at the results for Michigan.
http://projects.wsj.com/murderdata/...
I'd say I'm still not convinced.
First, the answers supplied by the author regarding the questions I have were not really answered. In order for me to accept those answers I would first need to be convinced his version of things is absolute...such as #13...which does not fulfill my quest for answers.
Abeit, I see many of the objections raised by the NRA are really not legitimate and therefore were easily brushed aside, my concerns regarding application to common households was not.
Many of his answers to objections seem to to be a brush-off as if he is saying he's right and we all need to believe his numbers...just because he did a study.
Your second link didn't seem to support Kellerman's numbers. They were more of a general overall database of murders/kilings not necessarily showing him to be accurate.
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

#117 Apr 12, 2013
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd say I'm still not convinced.
First, the answers supplied by the author regarding the questions I have were not really answered. In order for me to accept those answers I would first need to be convinced his version of things is absolute...such as #13...which does not fulfill my quest for answers.
Abeit, I see many of the objections raised by the NRA are really not legitimate and therefore were easily brushed aside, my concerns regarding application to common households was not.
Many of his answers to objections seem to to be a brush-off as if he is saying he's right and we all need to believe his numbers...just because he did a study.
You say you have concerns about application to common households? What is you definition of 'common households'? I'm certain the samplings contained households that took into account a variety of variables, i.e. locations, socio-economic and other demographic factors. Like I said 'checks and balances' to account for any biases that may have rendered themselves in some way into the results that invalidated the results.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#118 Apr 14, 2013
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
You say you have concerns about application to common households? What is you definition of 'common households'? I'm certain the samplings contained households that took into account a variety of variables, i.e. locations, socio-economic and other demographic factors. Like I said 'checks and balances' to account for any biases that may have rendered themselves in some way into the results that invalidated the results.
Actually they didn't. It took some research but the link to the rebuttal below explains it better than I can.
It's a safe link and I invite everyone who has contributed to, or has been following this thread, to read what I have found. It negates the validity of Kellerman's claims.
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kellerman-s...

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#119 Apr 14, 2013
Here's another interesting read.
Kellerman's numbers are clearly skewed and do not represent the common household in Amreica...

http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/rkba...
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Mount Morris, MI

#120 Apr 14, 2013
Mr Wiggley wrote:
Here's another interesting read.
Kellerman's numbers are clearly skewed and do not represent the common household in Amreica...
http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/rkba...
Read your post..... Interesting..... Saw another study this weekend of homicides that did not include gang killings which skews everything...... Wish I wrote that one down.... Funny how some of these studies don't want to talk about what we read daily...

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#121 Apr 14, 2013
Mr Wiggley wrote:
Here's another interesting read.
Kellerman's numbers are clearly skewed and do not represent the common household in Amreica...
http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/rkba...
"America"...the United States...coffee...more coffee...
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

#122 Apr 14, 2013
Mr Wiggley wrote:
Here's another interesting read.
Kellerman's numbers are clearly skewed and do not represent the common household in Amreica...
http://home.comcast.net/~dsmjd/tux/dsmjd/rkba...
That's unfortunate that you have brought out Shaffer in rebuttal to Kellerman because Shaffer is WIDELY known as nothing more than a paid political hack of the NRA. You see you don't really understand the gun debate very well when you find something like Shaffer and realize he works for the NRA. Nice try but Shaffer doesn't pass the smell test and reeks of NRA money and influence. Kellerman's study is valid and his findings has withstood the test of time.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#123 Apr 14, 2013
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Read your post..... Interesting..... Saw another study this weekend of homicides that did not include gang killings which skews everything...... Wish I wrote that one down.... Funny how some of these studies don't want to talk about what we read daily...
Yep...I hear ya Batch...
Have a nice day...

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#124 Apr 14, 2013
...After the fiasco and expense of the Casey Anthony case, i look for this case to be dropped or possibly dismissed, in whatever lawful manner that is acceptable. I tend to believe Alan Derschowitz, in that this case has been over prosecuted beyond reality and this prosecuter has been awful........hopefully avoiding the racists protesting.....

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#125 Apr 14, 2013
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
That's unfortunate that you have brought out Shaffer in rebuttal to Kellerman because Shaffer is WIDELY known as nothing more than a paid political hack of the NRA. You see you don't really understand the gun debate very well when you find something like Shaffer and realize he works for the NRA. Nice try but Shaffer doesn't pass the smell test and reeks of NRA money and influence. Kellerman's study is valid and his findings has withstood the test of time.
And your source (Kellerman) working for the CDC is somehow moreso valid??
Please present your absolute proof that Kellerman's study is the across the board accepted standard.
I can apparently find just as many rebuttals to his work as you can find acceptance to his work.

pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

#126 Apr 14, 2013
First of all Kellerman never worked for the CDC albeit his studies were funded in part by a grant from the CDC. Yes I would find anything put out by the CDC as far and away more superior or valid to anything funded or supported by or through the NRA. If you really want to get into it, you'll find just how insidious and over reaching NRA influence, power and control has been to thwart the gun control effort. It has truly been a MASSIVE effort.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#127 Apr 14, 2013
pipedream wrote:
First of all Kellerman never worked for the CDC albeit his studies were funded in part by a grant from the CDC. Yes I would find anything put out by the CDC as far and away more superior or valid to anything funded or supported by or through the NRA. If you really want to get into it, you'll find just how insidious and over reaching NRA influence, power and control has been to thwart the gun control effort. It has truly been a MASSIVE effort.
You are correct...he did not work for the CDC...my bad.
Funded in part??? Where did the rest of his funding come from?

I find it rather disturbing that you refuse to accept any part of someone's rebuttal (Shaffer). There seems to be many aspects of this debate that either side can present that the other side eludes to as a "hack".

With that said, I'd rather push for a study that all sides can agree upon to be validated. Until then I'd give Kellerman's study as little credence as you give Shaffer's rebuttal.
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

#128 Apr 14, 2013
Go Blue Forever wrote:
...After the fiasco and expense of the Casey Anthony case, i look for this case to be dropped or possibly dismissed, in whatever lawful manner that is acceptable. I tend to believe Alan Derschowitz, in that this case has been over prosecuted beyond reality and this prosecuter has been awful........hopefully avoiding the racists protesting.....
Dershowitz points to the alleged injury to GZs head as support for why he thinks the case should be dismissed, however all the injury really shows is a struggle took place between GZ and Trayvon which is all the more reason for allowing the legal process to play out. And it will. The fact is, Trayvon had the same right to stand his ground as Zimmerman is saying he had. If Trayvon had been an adult, had a license to carry, and had a gun on his person when he was approached by the stalker, under stand your ground, he could have made the same claim if he had shot and killed GZ. GZ is going down for something. It ultimately may not be 2nd Degree murder, which the prosecutor correctly charged, but the fact GZ was the pursuer, that GZ confronted Trayvon, means GZwill be convicted of something, that SOMETHING will at the very least be MANSLAUGHTER, a 15 year felony and a lesser included offense to 2nd Degree Murder. Either way GZ will spend some time in a nice FL corrections facility. Let this be a lesson to all you Billy Badasses out there who walk around carrying a gun thinking you can use it on someone whenever and where ever you feel like it, and think the law is going to defend you.
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

#129 Apr 14, 2013
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct...he did not work for the CDC...my bad.
Funded in part??? Where did the rest of his funding come from?
I find it rather disturbing that you refuse to accept any part of someone's rebuttal (Shaffer). There seems to be many aspects of this debate that either side can present that the other side eludes to as a "hack".
With that said, I'd rather push for a study that all sides can agree upon to be validated. Until then I'd give Kellerman's study as little credence as you give Shaffer's rebuttal.
Your objections to Kellerman, while flawed in the same light and to the same degree as those presented by the NRA, are duly noted. Surely, anything put out by the NRA should be looked at with even more skepticism than you have given to Kellerman.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#131 Apr 14, 2013
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
Your objections to Kellerman, while flawed in the same light and to the same degree as those presented by the NRA, are duly noted. Surely, anything put out by the NRA should be looked at with even more skepticism than you have given to Kellerman.
I don't regard my views as being flawed (although they may be)...but then the same may be said about your's.
I still believe more studies need to be done to validate Kellerman's study and apparently for the past 20 years no one has taken the initiative to do so. Maybe there's a reason for that??
I don't believe this is the NRA vs Kellerman. You made the claim that Shaffer is a paid hack for the NRA. I don't know that but I'd suppose someone could make similar claims about Kellerman also.
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

#132 Apr 14, 2013
Kellerman a paid political hack? Hhahaha. yeah right. You can't possibly be serious but then again I do believe the NRA has gotten to you. They're experts at polluting people's heads into making them think they need to protect themselves with unlimited numbers of firearms and that the 2nd Amendment is unquestionable and absolute and because of it, the world is a better place. Therefore, I will always smile when I hear or read of another gun owner falling victim in his/her own home, either by taking their own life or being killed by their own gun in their own home, a gun they claim they kept for 'self-protection'. Even the NRA no longer disputes the Kellerman's findings that gun owners are AT LEAST 2.7 times more likely to be victims of homicide by gun in their own homes than households with no guns.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#133 Apr 14, 2013
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
Dershowitz points to the alleged injury to GZs head as support for why he thinks the case should be dismissed, however all the injury really shows is a struggle took place between GZ and Trayvon which is all the more reason for allowing the legal process to play out. And it will. The fact is, Trayvon had the same right to stand his ground as Zimmerman is saying he had. If Trayvon had been an adult, had a license to carry, and had a gun on his person when he was approached by the stalker, under stand your ground, he could have made the same claim if he had shot and killed GZ. GZ is going down for something. It ultimately may not be 2nd Degree murder, which the prosecutor correctly charged, but the fact GZ was the pursuer, that GZ confronted Trayvon, means GZwill be convicted of something, that SOMETHING will at the very least be MANSLAUGHTER, a 15 year felony and a lesser included offense to 2nd Degree Murder. Either way GZ will spend some time in a nice FL corrections facility. Let this be a lesson to all you Billy Badasses out there who walk around carrying a gun thinking you can use it on someone whenever and where ever you feel like it, and think the law is going to defend you.
You really need to be more aware of, not only the case itself, but Angela Corey's track record and the actual statements made by Derschowitz regarding the lack of any evidence contradicting GZ' account, but the legal improprieties regarding Ms. Corey and her need to retain counsel, for her own misdeeds.....Unless you are here, merely to represent a race or a seperate opinion, which would explain your obvious slant..........

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#134 Apr 14, 2013
pipedream wrote:
Kellerman a paid political hack? Hhahaha. yeah right. You can't possibly be serious but then again I do believe the NRA has gotten to you. They're experts at polluting people's heads into making them think they need to protect themselves with unlimited numbers of firearms and that the 2nd Amendment is unquestionable and absolute and because of it, the world is a better place. Therefore, I will always smile when I hear or read of another gun owner falling victim in his/her own home, either by taking their own life or being killed by their own gun in their own home, a gun they claim they kept for 'self-protection'. Even the NRA no longer disputes the Kellerman's findings that gun owners are AT LEAST 2.7 times more likely to be victims of homicide by gun in their own homes than households with no guns.
"Even the NRA no longer disputes Kellerman's findings"?????????
I'd ask you provide proof of that claim.

Just as you believe anyone who disagrees with you has been polluted by the NRA, it's reasonable to assume you have been polluted by Kellerman and the likes of him and the anti-gun possession rhetoric.

I'd add that I highly doubt that you would accept any study as valid when based on only 400 households in any country.
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

#135 Apr 14, 2013
Not here representing any race. Likewise Corey's track record or alleged "misdeeds" or "legal improprieties" as you imply exist (and I assume invalidate Corey's charging decision) are really not at issue here. You seem to be saying that Corey's motives should invalidate or call into question the charges. Not going to happen. What is at issue is whether or not GZ is guilty of murder or some lesser included offense. GZs ONLY plausible defense here is stand your ground (which I believe he has or will waive), self defense, excusable homicide or justifiable homicide. GZs case is weak as relates to any of these. Take a look at the FL laws related to each these defenses and you will see why GZ has a huge uphill battle to show the validity of any of them under the specific circumstances of this incident.

For instance, specific to Fla., Self Defense is referred to as the justifiable use of force. In simple terms, the defense allows a person to use force, sometimes deadly force, to protect one's self, one's property, or another person, so long as the force used is proportionate to the threat faced.

Key here "as long as the force used is proportionate to the threat faced." Considering GZ was armed, Martin was not, and the disparities in physical sizes between the two, even if at some point during a struggle, Georgie badass was on his back with Trayvon on top, unless substantial evidence is shown that Martin was the aggressor (not georgie badass) or that GZ 'reasonably' feared for his LIFE, GZ is going to lose on any of his so-called self defense claims.

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