Copp can't pass drug test
Businessminded

United States

#161 Apr 24, 2009
Benjamin wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd like to try to address some of your points...
1. 2 things here...they could for one keep it illegal to grow your own and second, most people have no idea how hard it is to grow good THC bearing MJ.
2. Probably won't change much unless we focus more on keeping all drugs away from kids. Legal or illegal they still seem to get their mitts on stuff like that.
3. I'd say no.
4. Good point..."no" to allowing people to drive but how to field test...not sure.
5. Studies also indicate that teens who use nicotine or alcohol are 30 times more likely to try MJ. This would indicate we need to get those things out of their hands...see # 2.
6. NO
7. It's estimated that 19 million people smoked MJ last year. Maybe we are already treating the folks you mention??
I think the point may be if we taxed the sales of MJ and ridded our prisons, courts, etc of the wasted dollars on small amounts of MJ and turned that into a positive effort to help teenagers we'd be way ahead. I think you'd have to agree we'd have extra funds to re-focus our priorities.
First - applause for bringing fairly well thought out answers to the debate. My replies:

1. So keep MJ illegal to grow. How do you enforce? What are the penalites and how long before people cry 'foul' because home-growers are thrown in jail? And do you need a license to grow? How many available? Is it like alcohol?

2. We agree PREVENTION & Education is key. Where do these 'kids' learn their behaviors? School or home? Isn't it the most difficult to expect the kids to say 'no' when their parents do it at home? Isn't this key to the problem that exists now with cigs, alcohol & drugs? The fact is, kids follow in their parents footsteps. It seems to me that legalization is a step back in as much as now it's not just mom or dad who say 'smoke, drink or do drugs'. Now it's society who says 'go ahead & smoke'.(not to the teen directly, but indirectly 'good for the goose' way)

3) Good answer but again how do you manage that? Do you personally believe if it's legal, more will smoke out in public? Do you jail them for smoking in public?

4) Remains a problem to solve.

5) I agree and that goes back to my #2 also. Role modeling remains the most influential way to raise kids. How will legalization make people be more responsible with their MJ use? Particularly if a % of those people are suffering from Mental Illness as a result of their use?

6) But wouldn't legalizing all drug use make it safer because you remove the 'bad element' of drug dealers etc. "Prohibition" doesn't work right? Why not make it all legal?

7) Yes, I agree. But not enough studies and the studies and/or evidence that does exist may in fact be ignored as related to MJ because of the lack of significant studies. Just because 19 Million smoked it does not mean their hasn't been an impact if nobody is measuring what is happening with those 19 Million people. It does mean, the world won't end as we know it, but it doesn't mean their has been zero impact on society because of it. Right? Haven't you ever wondered where the heck all the latest 'illnesses' come from? Doesn't it seem that as a society we are over medicated in many ways, not just MJ but in addition to MJ? What if you KNEW that MJ use contributed to 25% of current diseases? Would that change your mind?(I am not saying it does I'm mearly trying to prompt the line that should or shouldn't be drawn)

Based on what you pointed out I am not convinced it would in fact 're-direct' funds to help people. I see equivilent things for Gov't to 'control or manage' just at a different, more complicated level to police.(like the Medicinal use law) And will 'legalizing' MJ stop the black market altogether?
Businessminded

United States

#162 Apr 24, 2009
Benjamin wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd like to try to address some of your points...
1.......I think you'd have to agree we'd have extra funds to re-focus our priorities.
First - applause for bringing fairly well thought out answers to the debate. My replies:

1. So keep MJ illegal to grow. How do you enforce? What are the penalites and how long before people cry 'foul' because home-growers are thrown in jail? And do you need a license to grow? How many available? Is it like alcohol?

2. We agree PREVENTION & Education is key. Where do these 'kids' learn their behaviors? School or home? Isn't it the most difficult to expect the kids to say 'no' when their parents do it at home? Isn't this key to the problem that exists now with cigs, alcohol & drugs? The fact is, kids follow in their parents footsteps. It seems to me that legalization is a step back in as much as now it's not just mom or dad who say 'smoke, drink or do drugs'. Now it's society who says 'go ahead & smoke'.(not to the teen directly, but indirectly 'good for the goose' way)

3) Good answer but again how do you manage that? Do you personally believe if it's legal, more will smoke out in public? Do you jail them for smoking in public?

4) Remains a problem to solve.

5) I agree and that goes back to my #2 also. Role modeling remains the most influential way to raise kids. How will legalization make people be more responsible with their MJ use? Particularly if a % of those people are suffering from Mental Illness as a result of their use?

6) But wouldn't legalizing all drug use make it safer because you remove the 'bad element' of drug dealers etc. "Prohibition" doesn't work right? Why not make it all legal?

7) Yes, I agree. But not enough studies and the studies and/or evidence that does exist may in fact be ignored as related to MJ because of the lack of significant studies. Just because 19 Million smoked it does not mean their hasn't been an impact if nobody is measuring what is happening with those 19 Million people. It does mean, the world won't end as we know it, but it doesn't mean their has been zero impact on society because of it. Right? Haven't you ever wondered where the heck all the latest 'illnesses' come from? Doesn't it seem that as a society we are over medicated in many ways, not just MJ but in addition to MJ? What if you KNEW that MJ use contributed to 25% of current diseases? Would that change your mind?(I am not saying it does I'm mearly trying to prompt the line that should or shouldn't be drawn)

Based on what you pointed out I am not convinced it would in fact 're-direct' funds to help people. I see equivilent things for Gov't to 'control or manage' just at a different, more complicated level to police.(like the Medicinal use law) And will 'legalizing' MJ stop the black market altogether?
Businessminded

United States

#163 Apr 24, 2009
Benjamin wrote:
<quoted text>
5. Studies also indicate that teens who use nicotine or alcohol are 30 times more likely to try MJ. This would indicate we need to get those things out of their hands...see # 2.
.
I wanted to elaborate a little more on this one because rather than a real reply to the problem of MJ leading to other drugs, you really didn't address that MJ DOES lead and how we can prevent it...only that 'so does cigs & alcohol' and so we should address that to. If we agree that teenage use of cigs & alcohol & MJ IS a problem do we honestly want to add more MJ use to it? Which we know means at least 1/2 of those users will try harsher drugs? It's a numbers game isn't it? We can agree if we keep kids from smoking & drinking, less will use MJ and the less that use MJ means the less that will use harsher more dangerous drugs. It seems a no-brainer that legalization would be a step back as it pertains to keeping it away from our kids.
Businessminded

United States

#164 Apr 24, 2009
So sorry for the double post thing...DARN TOPIX got me again!

Union All The Way

“So what!!”

Since: Apr 08

Lakeview, Mi.

#165 Apr 24, 2009
Over 50 wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing's illegal until you get caught ..:)
Bada boom bada bingo!!
jeff

Hamtramck, MI

#166 Apr 24, 2009
The sun will come up tomorrow!!

“Aut viam inveniam aut faciam ”

Since: Feb 08

Muskegon

#167 Apr 24, 2009
Businessminded wrote:
<quoted text>
First - applause for bringing fairly well thought out answers to the debate. My replies:
1. So keep MJ illegal to grow. How do you enforce? What are the penalites and how long before people cry 'foul' because home-growers are thrown in jail? And do you need a license to grow? How many available? Is it like alcohol?
2. We agree PREVENTION & Education is key. Where do these 'kids' learn their behaviors? School or home? Isn't it the most difficult to expect the kids to say 'no' when their parents do it at home? Isn't this key to the problem that exists now with cigs, alcohol & drugs? The fact is, kids follow in their parents footsteps. It seems to me that legalization is a step back in as much as now it's not just mom or dad who say 'smoke, drink or do drugs'. Now it's society who says 'go ahead & smoke'.(not to the teen directly, but indirectly 'good for the goose' way)
3) Good answer but again how do you manage that? Do you personally believe if it's legal, more will smoke out in public? Do you jail them for smoking in public?
4) Remains a problem to solve.
5) I agree and that goes back to my #2 also. Role modeling remains the most influential way to raise kids. How will legalization make people be more responsible with their MJ use? Particularly if a % of those people are suffering from Mental Illness as a result of their use?
6) But wouldn't legalizing all drug use make it safer because you remove the 'bad element' of drug dealers etc. "Prohibition" doesn't work right? Why not make it all legal?
7) Yes, I agree. But not enough studies and the studies and/or evidence that does exist may in fact be ignored as related to MJ because of the lack of significant studies. Just because 19 Million smoked it does not mean their hasn't been an impact if nobody is measuring what is happening with those 19 Million people. It does mean, the world won't end as we know it, but it doesn't mean their has been zero impact on society because of it. Right? Haven't you ever wondered where the heck all the latest 'illnesses' come from? Doesn't it seem that as a society we are over medicated in many ways, not just MJ but in addition to MJ? What if you KNEW that MJ use contributed to 25% of current diseases? Would that change your mind?(I am not saying it does I'm mearly trying to prompt the line that should or shouldn't be drawn)
Based on what you pointed out I am not convinced it would in fact 're-direct' funds to help people. I see equivilent things for Gov't to 'control or manage' just at a different, more complicated level to police.(like the Medicinal use law) And will 'legalizing' MJ stop the black market altogether?
How about instead of legalizing marijuana growing and using, we just...ummm, I don't know...

...decriminalize the stuff?

Quit making the recreational user of marijuana into some Drug Lord that is on the path to ruin and damnation...it isn't always so and everyone knows it.

Our society cannot simply legislate itself into moral, ethical and responsible behavior...there is way more to it than merely pasing laws and expecting people to obey them all and do so all the time.

It is especially difficult when the regualted behavior is what people put into their own bodies..supposedly the LAST refuge left to any citizen that is not supposed to be ruled over by our ill mannered, intrusive and nearly omnipotent Nanny government.

Yeah, decriminalization, along with prevention, education and rehabilitation programs might be a better way to go for everyone concerned simply because the "War on Drugs" cannot be won any more than the "War on Terror" can be won.

Human nature is to get whatever we want...whatever the demand, there will eventually be a supply.

“Aut viam inveniam aut faciam ”

Since: Feb 08

Muskegon

#168 Apr 24, 2009
How about instead of legalizing marijuana growing and using, we just...ummm, I don't know...

...decriminalize the stuff?

Quit making the recreational user of marijuana into some Drug Lord that is on the path to ruin and damnation...it isn't always so and everyone knows it.

Our society cannot simply legislate itself into moral, ethical and responsible behavior...there is way more to it than merely pasing laws and expecting people to obey them all and do so all the time.

It is especially difficult when the regulated behavior is what people put into their own bodies..supposedly the LAST refuge left to any citizen that is not supposed to be ruled over by our ill mannered, intrusive and nearly omnipotent Nanny government.

Yeah, decriminalization, along with prevention, education and rehabilitation programs might be a better way to go for everyone concerned simply because the "War on Drugs" cannot be won any more than the "War on Terror" can be won.

Human nature is to get whatever we want...whatever the demand, there will eventually be a supply.

“Aut viam inveniam aut faciam ”

Since: Feb 08

Muskegon

#169 Apr 24, 2009
oops!! double posting!!!

sorry!
Businessminded

Attica, OH

#170 Apr 24, 2009
TheKaisho42 wrote:
oops!! double posting!!!
sorry!
Got you too! ; )

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#171 Apr 24, 2009
TheKaisho42 wrote:
<quoted text>
How about instead of legalizing marijuana growing and using, we just...ummm, I don't know...
...decriminalize the stuff?
That would be too easy. There are those that would rather live in a Nanny State. It's funny because most of the people against decriminalization are also conservative republicans. You know the same people who are for 'minimal governmental intrusion' and 'allowing the states to decide what is good for them'.

Oh thats right, they are only for 'minimal governmental intrusion' if it ties in with their moral guidelines. Just ask Terry Schiavo's family members.
Businessminded

Attica, OH

#172 Apr 24, 2009
TheKaisho42 wrote:
<quoted text>
How about instead of legalizing marijuana growing and using, we just...ummm, I don't know...
...decriminalize the stuff?
Quit making the recreational user of marijuana into some Drug Lord that is on the path to ruin and damnation...it isn't always so and everyone knows it.
Our society cannot simply legislate itself into moral, ethical and responsible behavior...there is way more to it than merely pasing laws and expecting people to obey them all and do so all the time.
It is especially difficult when the regualted behavior is what people put into their own bodies..supposedly the LAST refuge left to any citizen that is not supposed to be ruled over by our ill mannered, intrusive and nearly omnipotent Nanny government.
Yeah, decriminalization, along with prevention, education and rehabilitation programs might be a better way to go for everyone concerned simply because the "War on Drugs" cannot be won any more than the "War on Terror" can be won.
Human nature is to get whatever we want...whatever the demand, there will eventually be a supply.
Okay - I'll play along but you'll have to explain this a little more. So are you saying 'decriminalize it' if you use it but not if you are a drug lord? Then where does the supply come from? Personal growth? I personally do not believe the casual user is ever a direct target on the war or I believe our prisons would have....oh say 19 million more people in them. How many times to the movie stars get busted and slapped on the wrist? How many casual users go to Prison for it? Jail? Well, that might be more as they become the pawns to find the dealers, but I don't see a huge prison problem with the casual user. Do you have some stats we can review on that?

I'm all for not legislating away stupidity. I think the rhetoric on both sides gets quite carried away. "WAR ON DRUGS" That's ridiculous. If it WAS a war, we wouldn't see 1/2 the complacency in attitudes towards it's use. I don't think every user is on a path of damnation anymore than an alcoholic. But I don't think it has to be that bad for things to have negative affects.

As I have said before. There has to be a balance somewhere here and both sides seem dug into defending their 'position' more than finding the truth and solving real social problems that relate to it. "Treatment" as I know it isn't all that successful as far as drugs go. The best 'treatment' I know means, don't start - kind of like cigs. Easiest way to quit, don't start. So how does re-directing $ to treatment help if our current 'treatment' isn't all that effective?

And with the "War on Terror" comment I have to ask. SO you your stance on that problem that we should just ignore it too? "Winning" is never a destination in these instances because they are ONGOING. That's why I feel the term "WAR" is not appropriate if it measures success based on a conclusion rather than an impact on current social impact.

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#173 Apr 24, 2009
Businessminded wrote:
<quoted text>
I wanted to elaborate a little more on this one because rather than a real reply to the problem of MJ leading to other drugs, you really didn't address that MJ DOES lead and how we can prevent it...
That is a tired argument. IF it leads to other drugs it's only because of the fact that it is controled by the black market. You have to go 'underground' to access it and by doing so the chances are good that you will run into other drugs.

We can prevent it being a gateway by taking it out of the hands of the black market.

“Don't touch my junk man!”

Since: Nov 07

Middle of the Mitten, Michigan

#174 Apr 24, 2009
Whuteva wrote:
<quoted text>
That would be too easy. There are those that would rather live in a Nanny State. It's funny because most of the people against decriminalization are also conservative republicans. You know the same people who are for 'minimal governmental intrusion' and 'allowing the states to decide what is good for them'.
Oh thats right, they are only for 'minimal governmental intrusion' if it ties in with their moral guidelines. Just ask Terry Schiavo's family members.
Quite ironic isn't it. I find it odd myself.

“Don't touch my junk man!”

Since: Nov 07

Middle of the Mitten, Michigan

#175 Apr 24, 2009
Whuteva wrote:
<quoted text>
That is a tired argument. IF it leads to other drugs it's only because of the fact that it is controled by the black market. You have to go 'underground' to access it and by doing so the chances are good that you will run into other drugs.
We can prevent it being a gateway by taking it out of the hands of the black market.
I still say it's considered a gateway drug because of how badly it's demonized. The first time a kid smokes pot and realizes he didn't spontaneously combust he wonders what else out there isn't as bad as his DARE teacher said it was. Unfortunately the next step up is where the really bad and addictive drugs are.

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#176 Apr 24, 2009
Ms Angie wrote:
<quoted text>
I still say it's considered a gateway drug because of how badly it's demonized. The first time a kid smokes pot and realizes he didn't spontaneously combust he wonders what else out there isn't as bad as his DARE teacher said it was. Unfortunately the next step up is where the really bad and addictive drugs are.
Good point.

“Dude, Where's my car?”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#177 Apr 24, 2009
Businessminded wrote:
<quoted text>
That is a good question. I think my bil has made his at the novelty places that you can go to make it..... I'm not sure either....seems to me somebody died not long ago from drinking their 'own stuff'.
I think this speaks to how far do we go as a society. Do we want to try to 'idiot-proof' society or do we have faith that people are vigilant enough to properly educate themselves before they do something. Like the helmet law as an example. Was the helmet law put into place to protect us from ourselves? OR, to help curb the impact on society from head injuries & deaths that could have been prevented? The law doesn't stop people from not wearing helmets, the question is, does it help?
I have heard of what you describe before, someone dying from making their own. Do something wrong in the process and you end up with wood alcohol.(same stuff that's in windshield washer fluid). A glass of that and your either blind or dead.

As to your question of how far we go in regulating life-styles, we already do that in many ways. Seat Belt laws are in place to save lives in traffic accidents. We mandate air bags in cars for the same reason. Higher taxes on tobacco are used to both try and limit smoking and the potential disease that are associated with smoking and also to try and raise revenue.

Helmet laws are a subject close to my heart as I am a rider. The "antis" ABATE crowd cries freedom as there rallying point. Helmet advocates like myself view helmet laws in same way that seatbelt laws are justified. They save lives and the can reduce or prevent serious injury. When and person is injured or paralyzed in a an accident, be it on a motorcycle or a car what happens? The go on disability and drain dollars from the Michigan Catastrophic claims fund for their medical care and long term care. That's an effect that causes everyone in society to pay for the irresponsibility of one person so we feel justified in regulating it. Thing about it, do you want to pay higher insurance premiums because some "anti" doesn't want to wear his/her seat-belt or wear a helmet while riding their motrocycle??? I sure don't!

I'm just explaining the reasoning behind regulating behaviors. Some work and some don't. Does dring age restrictions keep minors from gaining access to alcohol? Of course not. Does keeping marijuana prevent people from using. Probably not, although some of us just don't use it because the penalties that society have placed on use and possession are too high of a price to pay.

But does keeping MJ illegal keep it out of the schools and out of the hands of minors? I doubt. It's readily available in most any High School or Middle School you can think of... often times more accessible than alcohol. So I guess my point is I just don't see where keeping MJ illegal is doing society much good. The price of drug raids, arrests, incarcerations etc. in my mind are way out of proportion to the potential dangers to society if it were legal. Instead of paying for law enforcement to spend valuable time and money to enforce a silly prohibition, we could very well be taxing it, regulating it, and the average person who want's a little garden for his or her supply doesn't have to worry about facing felony charges for growing a weed.

Businessminded, I know this MJ debate strikes close to home for you just as the use and abuse of alcohol strikes close to home for me. We are just seeing things in a different perspective based on our own personal experiences.

Union All The Way

“So what!!”

Since: Apr 08

Lakeview, Mi.

#178 Apr 24, 2009
Well said!!!

"Businessminded, I know this MJ debate strikes close to home for you just as the use and abuse of alcohol strikes close to home for me. We are just seeing things in a different perspective based on our own personal experiences".
ladydragonfly

Washington, MI

#179 Apr 24, 2009
GR Pete wrote:
<quoted text>
BS, if your kid got shot or worse yet shot and killed in a raid over either sale of 3 grams of dope or drunk driving you would be screaming for justice and the head of the cop that did it, be honest for gods sake.
If he got shot or arrested breaking the law, I would pray for mercy but I would know and tell him that he deserves what ever punishment is given to him. When I tell my kids they will be punished for breaking rules, they are punished. That is how kids avoid getting into worse trouble later. Maybe if Copp's parents had done the same thing when their son was my son's age he wouldn't be in trouble now.

Since: Apr 09

Wyoming

#180 Apr 24, 2009
GR Pete wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe he said he last smoked pot before it was announced that they had charged him. Pot stays in pee for several weeks. This Judge is the only one around that even asks this at an arraignment. He got off the Huizenga case so I don't know why he is on this one. If he is too close to Huizenga to hear a case where Huizenga is a Defendant, he is too close to hear one in which he is a witness but apparently that did not occur to the folks in Ottawa County.
The kid smoked dope, so what, should we go shoot him again?
I tend to agree that if he was too close to Huizenga to hear that case he should not be involved in Copp's dope case. The remark about shooting him again was stupid, just like Copp smoking again before his hearing.

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