So What

Grand Rapids, MI

#44 Dec 30, 2012
St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no doubt that the founding fathers wanted complete seperation of corporations and the government. They did not want to see corporations labeled as individuals. It made no difference if they were connected to the Crown or not, so the substance of his quote still applies.
Agreed that they likely never foresaw corporations as individuals but the connection to the Crown was the exact issue because the Crown used them to exact pressure on the colonialists not conform and comply to the desires of the Crown not the individual company. It was always about the Crown.
I'm sure the FF likely never foresaw many other things that have been twisted logic that the SCOTUS has pulled out of there asses either.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#45 Dec 30, 2012
Really wrote:
<quoted text>Then as I said, do away with the corporations AND small business owners. After all, it just won't do and be "fair" that they make more than you or I make. After all, I only report for work every day from 8 - 5 and I don't take any of the risk that is involved in running a company. How do I know this? Because, you moron, I ran a company at one time. I didn't sleep because I worried about morons like you who complained all the time if I or one of the other officers bought a new car or moved to a different residence that I paid for out of my salary. I also worried how payroll was going to be met when sales didn't meet budget. Tell me, do you and your union friends worry about such things? No need to answer, I know the answer already. As I said earlier, all this "it's not fair" whining is stupid.
Let me tell you a true story. A couple of decades ago there was one of the largest corporations in the west Michigan area that had a union in the factory. This company was in the top three in it's filed in the U.S. and internationally. It was during one of the Reagan recessions that the company went to the union and asked for concessions on wages and benefits because the drop in sales was causing the company financial hardship. To the point where there would be severe permanent layoffs if the company didn't get the concessions they asked for.

The union members trusted the "reality" of the companies requests, opened the contract gave them what they asked for after the company assured them when things got better there would be a return when the economy improved. The shop workers lost 4 years of wage increases and had to pay more out-of-pocket for their health benefits. Lost company contribution to their retirement funds.

None of the 1,500 office workers had to suffer any type degree of roll backs it was later learned.

A year and a half later the economy turned around and the company orders had tripled. The shop was on overtime to keep up with the increased orders. The company projection was for the next 4 years that pace would stay mostly consistent.

The union returned to the company asking that the workers be put back to where they were before the concessions were made. The company response? There was nothing put in writing that said they had to so they weren't going to.

The shop employees NEVER regained those 4 year losses.

True story. I was there to see it happen.

So you can pay homage all you want to business and lump "small business" along with large corporations all you want. While you shrug off how the airline industry along with many others that have raided employee retirement funds etc. But when you play with snakes it's a matter of when you'll get bitten.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Brighton, MI

#46 Dec 30, 2012
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me tell you a true story. A couple of decades ago there was one of the largest corporations in the west Michigan area that had a union in the factory. This company was in the top three in it's filed in the U.S. and internationally. It was during one of the Reagan recessions that the company went to the union and asked for concessions on wages and benefits because the drop in sales was causing the company financial hardship. To the point where there would be severe permanent layoffs if the company didn't get the concessions they asked for.
The union members trusted the "reality" of the companies requests, opened the contract gave them what they asked for after the company assured them when things got better there would be a return when the economy improved. The shop workers lost 4 years of wage increases and had to pay more out-of-pocket for their health benefits. Lost company contribution to their retirement funds.
None of the 1,500 office workers had to suffer any type degree of roll backs it was later learned.
A year and a half later the economy turned around and the company orders had tripled. The shop was on overtime to keep up with the increased orders. The company projection was for the next 4 years that pace would stay mostly consistent.
The union returned to the company asking that the workers be put back to where they were before the concessions were made. The company response? There was nothing put in writing that said they had to so they weren't going to.
The shop employees NEVER regained those 4 year losses.
True story. I was there to see it happen.
So you can pay homage all you want to business and lump "small business" along with large corporations all you want. While you shrug off how the airline industry along with many others that have raided employee retirement funds etc. But when you play with snakes it's a matter of when you'll get bitten.
Company had a responsibility to the Share holders. If workers do not like their conditions then move along.... I would have quit the Union and negotiated my own deal as a free citizen....
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

#47 Dec 30, 2012
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me tell you a true story. A couple of decades ago there was one of the largest corporations in the west Michigan area that had a union in the factory. This company was in the top three in it's filed in the U.S. and internationally. It was during one of the Reagan recessions that the company went to the union and asked for concessions on wages and benefits because the drop in sales was causing the company financial hardship. To the point where there would be severe permanent layoffs if the company didn't get the concessions they asked for.
The union members trusted the "reality" of the companies requests, opened the contract gave them what they asked for after the company assured them when things got better there would be a return when the economy improved. The shop workers lost 4 years of wage increases and had to pay more out-of-pocket for their health benefits. Lost company contribution to their retirement funds.
None of the 1,500 office workers had to suffer any type degree of roll backs it was later learned.
A year and a half later the economy turned around and the company orders had tripled. The shop was on overtime to keep up with the increased orders. The company projection was for the next 4 years that pace would stay mostly consistent.
The union returned to the company asking that the workers be put back to where they were before the concessions were made. The company response? There was nothing put in writing that said they had to so they weren't going to.
The shop employees NEVER regained those 4 year losses.
True story. I was there to see it happen.
So you can pay homage all you want to business and lump "small business" along with large corporations all you want. While you shrug off how the airline industry along with many others that have raided employee retirement funds etc. But when you play with snakes it's a matter of when you'll get bitten.
So you have one example. How about when the union does the same thing? I personally saw and heard that one happen. The union said, and I quote, "You don't have anything WE said in writing, therefore, it didn't happen. You lose." So, which snake would you rather deal with? It's called pick your poison. Do I trust each and every company out there? No, I don't, but I too have learned a few things along the way of my 40+ year career....those who would screw you will screw everyone if given the chance. It's on you to be aware and don't take the screwing "lying down" so to speak. It's also on you if you allow these things to turn you into a bitter, angry, elitist who is bound and determined to screw everyone first. We all have choices, SIB, you have made yours, I have made mine. Doesn't make yours better than mine or mine better than yours. However, it also doesn't make you smarter than me or anyone else. To be fair, it also doesn't make you dumber than anyone else.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

#48 Dec 30, 2012
Really wrote:
<quoted text>So you have one example. How about when the union does the same thing? I personally saw and heard that one happen. The union said, and I quote, "You don't have anything WE said in writing, therefore, it didn't happen. You lose." So, which snake would you rather deal with? It's called pick your poison. Do I trust each and every company out there? No, I don't, but I too have learned a few things along the way of my 40+ year career....those who would screw you will screw everyone if given the chance. It's on you to be aware and don't take the screwing "lying down" so to speak. It's also on you if you allow these things to turn you into a bitter, angry, elitist who is bound and determined to screw everyone first. We all have choices, SIB, you have made yours, I have made mine. Doesn't make yours better than mine or mine better than yours. However, it also doesn't make you smarter than me or anyone else. To be fair, it also doesn't make you dumber than anyone else.
The old quote about companies getting the unions they deserve and unions getting the management they deserve hasn't changed. The one example that everyone has is the teachers union and how our education system has deteriorated over the past 30 years. As long as parents are sending their kids to school, as long as kids are graduating with a minimal education and companies are only employing HS graduates in minimum wage jobs, unions will get a bad rep, no matter how good some may think they are.
here here

Muskegon, MI

#49 Dec 30, 2012
Really wrote:
<quoted text>Then as I said, do away with the corporations AND small business owners. After all, it just won't do and be "fair" that they make more than you or I make. After all, I only report for work every day from 8 - 5 and I don't take any of the risk that is involved in running a company. How do I know this? Because, you moron, I ran a company at one time. I didn't sleep because I worried about morons like you who complained all the time if I or one of the other officers bought a new car or moved to a different residence that I paid for out of my salary. I also worried how payroll was going to be met when sales didn't meet budget. Tell me, do you and your union friends worry about such things? No need to answer, I know the answer already. As I said earlier, all this "it's not fair" whining is stupid.
So the workers that give the best years of their life to a company risk nothing? That must be why all retirees are in such great health and living so lavishly now in their golden years. Yeah they risked nothing all right. Not like corporations who have laws shielding them from accountability. Just bankrupt under this name and open tomorrow under a new one with a clean slate just like people can right? When they go bankrupt all their problems and debt are gone and the slates wiped clean for them as well right? Oh you mean people are ruined for years after bankruptcy and lose almost everything? And nice try interchanging corporations with small business, because small business is exactly who i was referring to when I talked about them passing laws to protect themselves and their power. NOT!
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

#50 Dec 31, 2012
here here wrote:
<quoted text>So the workers that give the best years of their life to a company risk nothing? That must be why all retirees are in such great health and living so lavishly now in their golden years. Yeah they risked nothing all right. Not like corporations who have laws shielding them from accountability. Just bankrupt under this name and open tomorrow under a new one with a clean slate just like people can right? When they go bankrupt all their problems and debt are gone and the slates wiped clean for them as well right? Oh you mean people are ruined for years after bankruptcy and lose almost everything? And nice try interchanging corporations with small business, because small business is exactly who i was referring to when I talked about them passing laws to protect themselves and their power. NOT!
And again, blame the corporations who take advantage of the laws that Congress passed! Why can't you and your progressive whiner friends see that it isn't the fault of the corporations for taking advantage of the tax laws? Tell me something, do you blame your elitist 1% friends who take advantage of the tax laws to hide their monies and avoid taxes? How about those who take advantage of the tax laws that allow them to use their capital gains? Nope, you only want to whine about the Big Corporations that use the tax laws. Do they lobby for those laws? Yup, just like groups like AARP and others lobby for tax shelters as well. And just in case you misspoke, Corporations DO NOT pass the laws, I am sure that was a typo on your part, wasn't it? Or are you really ignorant about who passes the laws and who signs the laws?
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

#51 Dec 31, 2012
here here wrote:
<quoted text>So the workers that give the best years of their life to a company risk nothing? That must be why all retirees are in such great health and living so lavishly now in their golden years. Yeah they risked nothing all right. Not like corporations who have laws shielding them from accountability. Just bankrupt under this name and open tomorrow under a new one with a clean slate just like people can right? When they go bankrupt all their problems and debt are gone and the slates wiped clean for them as well right? Oh you mean people are ruined for years after bankruptcy and lose almost everything? And nice try interchanging corporations with small business, because small business is exactly who i was referring to when I talked about them passing laws to protect themselves and their power. NOT!
And by the way, those people who have "used the best years of their life"....you mean like the person who just retired on Friday after 39 years at the same company, without the "benefit" of a union? That person sent out a "thank you" e-mail to the CEO, CFO and all the officers and his fellow employees. Gee, I guess not everyone shares your view of "evil" corporations. Did it ever, just once, occur to you and your progressive friends that all this class warfare and whining will backfire on you? I'm guessing it probably hasn't.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#52 Dec 31, 2012
Really wrote:
<quoted text>And again, blame the corporations who take advantage of the laws that Congress passed! Why can't you and your progressive whiner friends see that it isn't the fault of the corporations for taking advantage of the tax laws? Tell me something, do you blame your elitist 1% friends who take advantage of the tax laws to hide their monies and avoid taxes? How about those who take advantage of the tax laws that allow them to use their capital gains? Nope, you only want to whine about the Big Corporations that use the tax laws. Do they lobby for those laws? Yup, just like groups like AARP and others lobby for tax shelters as well. And just in case you misspoke, Corporations DO NOT pass the laws, I am sure that was a typo on your part, wasn't it? Or are you really ignorant about who passes the laws and who signs the laws?
Perhaps I just missed it where Here Here said corporations pass laws. That would be an error. However, corporations DO through their lobbyists draft and present bills they want made into legislation to their legislators. That is why corporations, usually through their trade organizations, such as the Chamber of Commerce etc., spend so much money to get candidates elected. So they have access influence. And yes the same with labor organizations.

ANYONE can write a bill they would like made into legislation and present it to their legislator(s) to be made into laws. That is how our representative governments were set up to work. By the People and for the People.

Here is just one example of how it works and what happens in the process. http://www.cis.org/miano/when-lobbyists-write...

So it is technically correct that corporations do not pass laws. It is also correct though that their influence does get their bills put before the legislative bodies for consideration to be passed into law. And they certainly are not going to present a bill that doesn't advantage their perspective.
Chip

Madison, WI

#53 Dec 31, 2012
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me tell you a true story. A couple of decades ago there was one of the largest corporations in the west Michigan area that had a union in the factory. This company was in the top three in it's filed in the U.S. and internationally. It was during one of the Reagan recessions that the company went to the union and asked for concessions on wages and benefits because the drop in sales was causing the company financial hardship. To the point where there would be severe permanent layoffs if the company didn't get the concessions they asked for.
The union members trusted the "reality" of the companies requests, opened the contract gave them what they asked for after the company assured them when things got better there would be a return when the economy improved. The shop workers lost 4 years of wage increases and had to pay more out-of-pocket for their health benefits. Lost company contribution to their retirement funds.
None of the 1,500 office workers had to suffer any type degree of roll backs it was later learned.
A year and a half later the economy turned around and the company orders had tripled. The shop was on overtime to keep up with the increased orders. The company projection was for the next 4 years that pace would stay mostly consistent.
The union returned to the company asking that the workers be put back to where they were before the concessions were made. The company response? There was nothing put in writing that said they had to so they weren't going to.
The shop employees NEVER regained those 4 year losses.
True story. I was there to see it happen.
So you can pay homage all you want to business and lump "small business" along with large corporations all you want. While you shrug off how the airline industry along with many others that have raided employee retirement funds etc. But when you play with snakes it's a matter of when you'll get bitten.
So for this 50% of the population shouldn't have to pay any federal taxes? We call them freeloaders.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#54 Dec 31, 2012
Chip wrote:
<quoted text>
So for this 50% of the population shouldn't have to pay any federal taxes? We call them freeloaders.
Again, it is an inaccuracy, and in some cases an intended deceitfulness, to state that "this 50% of the population" does not pay any Federal taxes. Everyone that draws a paycheck pays Federal taxes. Plus no one can buy gas without paying Federal taxes. The same with an exhausting number of other things people purchase on a regular and irregular basis.

But seeing as what you meant is Federal Income taxes we again need to refer back to what the Founding Fathers of this country believed about taxation in the first place. And up until the passage of the 16th Amendment.

It is disturbingly clear that no amount of fact presentation is going to dissuade from the opinion that there is an inequitable burden of Federal Income taxation, nor an inequitable distribution of wealth. Including that it had been the Republicans that assured that that "50%" would not be liable for Federal Income tax. Nor that taxation is usually on a percentage basis it would send many more below the poverty line and those already poverty line into increasing the ranks of the destitute. Nor that the health of the national economy is dependent on everyone in it being able to participate in it. It has been soundly proven that trickle down idealism does not work in reality for the national economic health.

So why should it be that those at the very top be caused to suffer paying the largest burden of the Federal Income taxation when it is they that have worked so much harder than those who have not achieved the same level of income.

It's no wondering why the government is grid-locked when, the United States (supposedly) being a government of the people and for the people, the people are grid-locked. Damn the health of the national economy. It's the economic health of those who benefit most from it that matters.

“November 12th, 2011”

Since: Nov 07

up a tree

#55 Dec 31, 2012
Chip wrote:
<quoted text>
So for this 50% of the population shouldn't have to pay any federal taxes? We call them freeloaders.
It's much better for your argument to hide the fact that your 50% number is made up of 22% retired people who worked and paid their whole lives, 50% fully employed full time working households that simply don't make enough money to qualify to pay, students, the disabled and you especially don't want to mention the 13% of higher-income individuals with enough itemized deductions for items like mortgage interest, health payments, or charitable contributions, education tax credits, or tax exempt interest to zero out their income taxes.

Yeah, I can see why you just say 50% are moochers.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Keego Harbor, MI

#56 Dec 31, 2012
MIbowhunter wrote:
<quoted text> It's much better for your argument to hide the fact that your 50% number is made up of 22% retired people who worked and paid their whole lives, 50% fully employed full time working households that simply don't make enough money to qualify to pay, students, the disabled and you especially don't want to mention the 13% of higher-income individuals with enough itemized deductions for items like mortgage interest, health payments, or charitable contributions, education tax credits, or tax exempt interest to zero out their income taxes.
Yeah, I can see why you just say 50% are moochers.
and still is see more bridge cards where I just shopped at........ Takers...... They leave the shopping carts in driving lanes...... pigs....
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#57 Dec 31, 2012
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>and still is see more bridge cards where I just shopped at........ Takers...... They leave the shopping carts in driving lanes...... pigs....
Among your "takers":
7,000 Millionaires Paid No Income Tax In 2011

The chart below from the Tax Policy Center shows the distribution of federal income taxes paid by income level in 2011.

It contains a number of interesting factoids, including the following:

7,000 people made more than $1 million but paid no income tax.
22,000 people made between $500,000 and $1 million but paid no income tax.
81,000 people made between $200,000 and $500,000 but paid no income tax.
381,000 people made between $100,000 and $200,000 but paid no income tax.

So that's 491,000 Americans who made more than $100,000 a year who paid no income tax.(Clearly dependent victims who refuse to take responsibility for their lives!)

Also:

45% of the country makes less than $30,000 per year.
30% of the country makes less than $20,000 per year.
15% of the country makes less than $10,000 per year.

Also:

60 million of the 76 million Americans who pay no income tax make $30,000 or less.

Also:

25 million Americans make more than $100,000 per year—15% of the total.
6.7 million Americans make more than $200,000 per year—4% of the total.
1.3 million Americans make more than $500,000 per year—less than 1% of the total.
433,000 Americans make more than $1 million per year—less than 0.2% of the total.
http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionai...

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionai...
Chip

Beloit, WI

#58 Dec 31, 2012
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Among your "takers":
7,000 Millionaires Paid No Income Tax In 2011
The chart below from the Tax Policy Center shows the distribution of federal income taxes paid by income level in 2011.
It contains a number of interesting factoids, including the following:
7,000 people made more than $1 million but paid no income tax.
22,000 people made between $500,000 and $1 million but paid no income tax.
81,000 people made between $200,000 and $500,000 but paid no income tax.
381,000 people made between $100,000 and $200,000 but paid no income tax.
So that's 491,000 Americans who made more than $100,000 a year who paid no income tax.(Clearly dependent victims who refuse to take responsibility for their lives!)
Also:
45% of the country makes less than $30,000 per year.
30% of the country makes less than $20,000 per year.
15% of the country makes less than $10,000 per year.
Also:
60 million of the 76 million Americans who pay no income tax make $30,000 or less.
Also:
25 million Americans make more than $100,000 per year—15% of the total.
6.7 million Americans make more than $200,000 per year—4% of the total.
1.3 million Americans make more than $500,000 per year—less than 1% of the total.
433,000 Americans make more than $1 million per year—less than 0.2% of the total.
http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionai...
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionai...
Of the 7,000 millionaires who paid no income taxes how many will be affected by the democrats proposed legislation? None, thats exactly what I thought, the biggest burden will be on small business owners making 250k to 1mm, The democrats know that and thats why the democrats said plan B would be dead in the water.

It's time you wake up to reality that succesfull small business owners will pay the bulk of the additional taxes and they are the ones who employ the most people in the U.S. If you like it or not is irrelavant, these small business owners will limit hiring decisions based on anticipated cost of taxes.
Chip

Beloit, WI

#59 Dec 31, 2012
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
inequitable distribution of wealth.
The only thing we need to know about a socialist pig who wants to be a lazy freeloader on other peoples hard work.
So What

Grand Rapids, MI

#60 Dec 31, 2012
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Among your "takers":
7,000 Millionaires Paid No Income Tax In 2011
The chart below from the Tax Policy Center shows the distribution of federal income taxes paid by income level in 2011.
It contains a number of interesting factoids, including the following:
7,000 people made more than $1 million but paid no income tax.
22,000 people made between $500,000 and $1 million but paid no income tax.
81,000 people made between $200,000 and $500,000 but paid no income tax.
381,000 people made between $100,000 and $200,000 but paid no income tax.
So that's 491,000 Americans who made more than $100,000 a year who paid no income tax.(Clearly dependent victims who refuse to take responsibility for their lives!)
Also:
45% of the country makes less than $30,000 per year.
30% of the country makes less than $20,000 per year.
15% of the country makes less than $10,000 per year.
Also:
60 million of the 76 million Americans who pay no income tax make $30,000 or less.
Also:
25 million Americans make more than $100,000 per year—15% of the total.
6.7 million Americans make more than $200,000 per year—4% of the total.
1.3 million Americans make more than $500,000 per year—less than 1% of the total.
433,000 Americans make more than $1 million per year—less than 0.2% of the total.
http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionai...
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/7000-millionai...
The Tax Policy Center SIB? Really? Couldn't get he "corrected" data from the IRS. Needed it in the biased format you'd like so you cherry pick from the progressive Tax Policy Center.

I think it's funny that the IRS stats are current through 2009 and yet the Tax Policy Center has managed to determine these "numbers for 2011 already. Just proves we don't don't need the IRS I guess.

But for those interested in the real data from the real source read if you wish;

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/09inratesnap.p...
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Keego Harbor, MI

#61 Jan 1, 2013
A small fraction SIB. I am not seeing the rich in line buying Cheetos and ice cream. Takers are far more in number and I make too much to participate. Govt will continue to rob me.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Keego Harbor, MI

#62 Jan 1, 2013
35% to 55% tax on my death. My kids will get little of my after tax savings. Takers
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

#63 Jan 1, 2013
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
35% to 55% tax on my death. My kids will get little of my after tax savings. Takers
That' far to generalized an assertion for me to give it any credence. I happen to know the numbers where the estate taxes kick in. If you're worth THAT much why haven't you learned about trusts and such to protect your children's inheritance?

Oh, and that 35-55% wouldn't happen unless we actually do go over the "fiscal cliff" permanently. Which isn't going to happen.

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