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Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#22
Dec 29, 2012
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
On that we can absolutely agree. The FFs and both political parties believed taxing people's income needed to survive was an abomination.
Though as usual you leave out the details. "It wasn't until the Progressive movement of the early 1900's that a personal tax was considered."? First off it was Lincoln, a Republican, the first Republican President, that instituted the first Federal personal income tax to pay for the Civil War.
That aside for now. The 16th Amendment was conceived in 1909 and became law in 1913. Who was President during those years? William Howard Taft. A Republican.
http://www.moneycrashers.com/us-tax-history-f...
To which will be retorted which party was the majority in Congress during his terms. The answer, Republican. So you are saying Republicans are the Progressives?
Detailed research of the record proves it has always been the Republicans who have moved to saddle the general citizenry with Federal income taxes to defer the intended responsibility of taxes on capital gains of the richest and corporations.
Granted Lincoln really had no choice because there was the Civil War being fought needing to be paid for. Same as with WWI and WWII as wars need to be paid for. Not so much in recent history were the only wars in the U.S. history there were no provisions made to pay for them. In fact after the wars were engaged in taxes were lowered and the people told to go shopping.
So to lay it on the "progressive movement" is simply transference.
The Revenue Act of 1862 was explicitly temporary, specifying a termination of income tax in "the year eighteen hundred and sixty-six". I would be very happy if every tax law had a four year expiration date.

I used Progressive because what Republicans and Democrats stand for changes all the time. I believe that some of the earliest proponents were the Communists, but I don't think that folks in favor of an income tax are communists. Personally I think both parties are only different in their degree. They both want to spend more than we should and tax more than we should simply because they want to get elected. Raising taxes on the top 1% will truly net very little revenue so it's just a political ploy to appeal to specific groups. Neither party is serious about spending cuts, they both just want to spend too much but on different ways.
St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#23
Dec 29, 2012
 
"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the Bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe.. corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed." ---Abraham Lincoln

Though not a founding father Lincoln says basically the same thing as Jefferson did.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#24
Dec 29, 2012
 
Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
ANOTHER ONE......
More and more, the right wing lunatics are starting to agree that the current tax system is skewed in favor of the 1%.
Too bad a tax based on consumption does the same thing!
Actually, that is BS, Bob. Have you really looked into the flat tax? probably not since you are still spewing that crap. The flat tax, based on a consumption tax, takes away EVERY DEDUCTION that you progressives think are "evil" and "unfair". You don't pay a dime of tax until you purchase something. It hits everyone who purchases something. Too bad the concept escapes most of the progressives, but that is because it would remove their whining about "that's not fair".
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#25
Dec 29, 2012
 
So What wrote:
<quoted text>
Not true SIB. Everyone wanted a piece of the working mans money.
"The Socialist Labor Party advocated a graduated income tax in 1887. The Populist Party "demand[ed] a graduated income tax" in its 1892 platform. The Democratic Party, led by William Jennings Bryan, advocated the income tax law passed in 1894, and proposed an income tax in its 1908 platform."
And Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington, and James Madison, and Thomas Paine, among others were advocates of progressive taxation. So you view them, the founders of this nation, Socialists, Marxists and Communists?

What I am saying is it didn't come to fruition, through the 16th Amendment, until a Republican President and Republican controlled Congress.

SO, for these "republicans" to transfer "blame" of the burden of a Federal Income Tax onto Progressives, Democrats, Socialists, Communists, every ist they don't happen to like is disingenuous. If not simply crafty. Again because the Federal Income Tax did not become the permanent law of the land until a Republican President and a Republican controlled Congress.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#26
Dec 29, 2012
 
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
The Revenue Act of 1862 was explicitly temporary, specifying a termination of income tax in "the year eighteen hundred and sixty-six". I would be very happy if every tax law had a four year expiration date.
I used Progressive because what Republicans and Democrats stand for changes all the time. I believe that some of the earliest proponents were the Communists, but I don't think that folks in favor of an income tax are communists. Personally I think both parties are only different in their degree. They both want to spend more than we should and tax more than we should simply because they want to get elected. Raising taxes on the top 1% will truly net very little revenue so it's just a political ploy to appeal to specific groups. Neither party is serious about spending cuts, they both just want to spend too much but on different ways.
Again I categorically dispute that allowing the temporary tax cuts to expire is not raising taxes. And anyone that believes otherwise is woefully under-informed in word definitions.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#27
Dec 29, 2012
 
St Stephen wrote:
"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the Bankers in the rear. Of the two, the one at my rear is my greatest foe.. corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed." ---Abraham Lincoln
Though not a founding father Lincoln says basically the same thing as Jefferson did.
He said this from having being a lawyer for the railroads.

So many before us saw it coming. So few after have been paying attention.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#28
Dec 29, 2012
 

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The arguments about the evil Republicans and corporations are enough to make a thinking person puke. Who on earth do you think employs the majority of the workers in this country, including your ever so precious union members?? Corporations! If they are so darn bad, get rid of them and let us all be on the welfare rolls. Ooops, that won't work because then no one will be paying the taxes that are required to pay the welfare benefits. Hmmmmm, what a conundrum we have! You want to punish those who achieve and work by taking what they have made and giving to those who choose not to work or choose to not work as hard. What a bunch of whiny little children this nation has become! Thank you President Obama, you have surely succeeded in dividing this nation.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#29
Dec 29, 2012
 

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By the way, SIB and Steve? Who pays you so you can live so well??? SIB keeps telling us about all the important people she knows. Steve keeps bragging about all the fine things in life he has....who has given you the wherewithall to have those contacts and those fine things??? Yup, you worked for them, but who issued your paychecks or did you live off the welfare system and get rich off of it?
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#30
Dec 29, 2012
 

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Really wrote:
By the way, SIB and Steve? Who pays you so you can live so well??? SIB keeps telling us about all the important people she knows. Steve keeps bragging about all the fine things in life he has....who has given you the wherewithall to have those contacts and those fine things??? Yup, you worked for them, but who issued your paychecks or did you live off the welfare system and get rich off of it?
Just what is it to you where our incomes come from? If you want to be the happy slave then you just go right ahead and be it. If you want to whore yourself out to the barons that believe you are only worth what they want you to be based on "the going rate", go for it.

And if you think ANYONE gets rich off the welfare system then you are even dumber than what you write indicates you are.

That you are more comfortable with the dictatorship/kingship/authorit arianism of private employment that's your choice. Just keep your contented with servitude to yourself. It is attitudes like yours that has turned a government by the people for the people into government by the corporations for the corporations. No matter what you have been shown of the greatest that have gone before us were warning us about just doesn't sink in. You can't blame any education system when you refuse to learn any further beyond them. It just could be that you weren't learning even if they were teaching you correctly.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#31
Dec 29, 2012
 

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Really wrote:
The arguments about the evil Republicans and corporations are enough to make a thinking person puke. Who on earth do you think employs the majority of the workers in this country, including your ever so precious union members?? Corporations! If they are so darn bad, get rid of them and let us all be on the welfare rolls. Ooops, that won't work because then no one will be paying the taxes that are required to pay the welfare benefits. Hmmmmm, what a conundrum we have! You want to punish those who achieve and work by taking what they have made and giving to those who choose not to work or choose to not work as hard. What a bunch of whiny little children this nation has become! Thank you President Obama, you have surely succeeded in dividing this nation.
That you refuse to learn what has been put in front of you is your choice.

All bow down and pay homage to those who pay you what THEY think you are worth to make them even bigger overlords.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#32
Dec 29, 2012
 

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SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Again I categorically dispute that allowing the temporary tax cuts to expire is not raising taxes. And anyone that believes otherwise is woefully under-informed in word definitions.
This needs correction;
Again I categorically dispute that allowing the temporary tax cuts to expire is raising taxes.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#34
Dec 29, 2012
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Just what is it to you where our incomes come from? If you want to be the happy slave then you just go right ahead and be it. If you want to whore yourself out to the barons that believe you are only worth what they want you to be based on "the going rate", go for it.
And if you think ANYONE gets rich off the welfare system then you are even dumber than what you write indicates you are.
That you are more comfortable with the dictatorship/kingship/authorit arianism of private employment that's your choice. Just keep your contented with servitude to yourself. It is attitudes like yours that has turned a government by the people for the people into government by the corporations for the corporations. No matter what you have been shown of the greatest that have gone before us were warning us about just doesn't sink in. You can't blame any education system when you refuse to learn any further beyond them. It just could be that you weren't learning even if they were teaching you correctly.
I don't personally give two hoots and a holler where your money came from you snobby, cranky, woman! Keep all your money to yourself, I could care less. And as usual, you jumped on your "better than thou high horse" before you actually read what I posted. If you can't read any better than that, perhaps you need your elitist, snobby friends to interpret things for you??? As for my attitude, I want less government and lower taxes, exactly what the founding fathers proposed. And by the way? I take the Constitution as written, not as you want it to be. And whoring myself out?? Really! By working for a living and understanding how life actually works? Methinks the whoring oneself out has been done by the elitist progressives who never fail to think they know more, have more money, and are much, much better than those of us of the great unwashed. Well, keep your money and your elitism. I wouldn't want to be anything like you, ever.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#35
Dec 29, 2012
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
This needs correction;
Again I categorically dispute that allowing the temporary tax cuts to expire is raising taxes.
Really?? what part of the tax rates increasing to their previous levels and the amount of taxes withheld from the paycheck increasing don't you get?? Oh wait, you are part of the 1% who hides her money everywhere to avoid those taxes! Gotcha.
here here

Muskegon, MI

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#36
Dec 29, 2012
 
Really wrote:
The arguments about the evil Republicans and corporations are enough to make a thinking person puke. Who on earth do you think employs the majority of the workers in this country, including your ever so precious union members?? Corporations! If they are so darn bad, get rid of them and let us all be on the welfare rolls. Ooops, that won't work because then no one will be paying the taxes that are required to pay the welfare benefits. Hmmmmm, what a conundrum we have! You want to punish those who achieve and work by taking what they have made and giving to those who choose not to work or choose to not work as hard. What a bunch of whiny little children this nation has become! Thank you President Obama, you have surely succeeded in dividing this nation.
yeah, because no one worked before "corporations" came along. No one built anything, raised anything farmed anything, created anything, had any skills, or did anything for themselves or their community. Maybe it was the creation of "corporations" and giving them the power to mess with our elections that is the real problem here. Maybe these corporations used money and influence to get laws passed that makes it darn near impossible for people to be self sufficient here in the US. They have created a set of rules that have enslaved us all, real skills die of with each generation leaving us more and more reliant on corporations. And if that fails,they have a private army to protect their interests and crush anyone who dares not play by their rules.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#37
Dec 29, 2012
 
Really wrote:
<quoted text>I don't personally give two hoots and a holler where your money came from you snobby, cranky, woman! Keep all your money to yourself, I could care less. And as usual, you jumped on your "better than thou high horse" before you actually read what I posted. If you can't read any better than that, perhaps you need your elitist, snobby friends to interpret things for you??? As for my attitude, I want less government and lower taxes, exactly what the founding fathers proposed. And by the way? I take the Constitution as written, not as you want it to be. And whoring myself out?? Really! By working for a living and understanding how life actually works? Methinks the whoring oneself out has been done by the elitist progressives who never fail to think they know more, have more money, and are much, much better than those of us of the great unwashed. Well, keep your money and your elitism. I wouldn't want to be anything like you, ever.
Then it would serve you well to take stock in what you write before you post it. There was nothing benign in your wording. And if you didn't care why did you ask? Especially in the suggestions of how it was done. Like getting rich off the welfare system.

If you want smaller government then you'd best do some serious reading of history. In EVERY Republican administration in the 20th century, and the first part of this one, the size of government and the scope of it has been increased.
http://www.politicususa.com/big-government-ob...

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/lariso...

http://mises.org/daily/895

No, working for a living isn't whoring oneself out. What is whoring oneself out is to worship those who are exchanging less with those that are creating more gain in return while idolizing them for it.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#38
Dec 29, 2012
 
Really wrote:
<quoted text>Really?? what part of the tax rates increasing to their previous levels and the amount of taxes withheld from the paycheck increasing don't you get?? Oh wait, you are part of the 1% who hides her money everywhere to avoid those taxes! Gotcha.
None, NONE, of my income has EVER been hidden away to avoid paying taxes on it. Now you say the same for all those corporate megaliths and richest you so idolize for being so gracious to give you a job.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#39
Dec 29, 2012
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Again I categorically dispute that allowing the temporary tax cuts to expire is not raising taxes. And anyone that believes otherwise is woefully under-informed in word definitions.
At what point does something move from "temporary" to "normal"? If you started working for me in 2001 and I came to you next week and said that you were being let go because your position was "temporary" don't you think you'd be a little confused about an 11 year temp job?

Because I agree if the tax rates go up, it's a tax increase. But then politicians say if they spent 750 Billion last year and were planning on spending 1.3 Trillion, but instead decided to spend only 1.2 Trillion, that is a spending cut.

I wonder how they would feel if we all decided to cut their salary to $0 and instead made it $1 and told them they were all getting a raise.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#40
Dec 29, 2012
 
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
At what point does something move from "temporary" to "normal"? If you started working for me in 2001 and I came to you next week and said that you were being let go because your position was "temporary" don't you think you'd be a little confused about an 11 year temp job?
Because I agree if the tax rates go up, it's a tax increase. But then politicians say if they spent 750 Billion last year and were planning on spending 1.3 Trillion, but instead decided to spend only 1.2 Trillion, that is a spending cut.
I wonder how they would feel if we all decided to cut their salary to $0 and instead made it $1 and told them they were all getting a raise.
Not of you told me at the time I was hired in it was a temporary position. And I'm sure as a responsible employer you would have had that condition in writing. As it was/is with the tax cuts. That should cover it.

Seeing as it won't though, it was made clear at the time the cuts were implemented what the cut off date was. What's so hard to understand about that?
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#41
Dec 30, 2012
 
here here wrote:
<quoted text>yeah, because no one worked before "corporations" came along. No one built anything, raised anything farmed anything, created anything, had any skills, or did anything for themselves or their community. Maybe it was the creation of "corporations" and giving them the power to mess with our elections that is the real problem here. Maybe these corporations used money and influence to get laws passed that makes it darn near impossible for people to be self sufficient here in the US. They have created a set of rules that have enslaved us all, real skills die of with each generation leaving us more and more reliant on corporations. And if that fails,they have a private army to protect their interests and crush anyone who dares not play by their rules.
Then as I said, do away with the corporations AND small business owners. After all, it just won't do and be "fair" that they make more than you or I make. After all, I only report for work every day from 8 - 5 and I don't take any of the risk that is involved in running a company. How do I know this? Because, you moron, I ran a company at one time. I didn't sleep because I worried about morons like you who complained all the time if I or one of the other officers bought a new car or moved to a different residence that I paid for out of my salary. I also worried how payroll was going to be met when sales didn't meet budget. Tell me, do you and your union friends worry about such things? No need to answer, I know the answer already. As I said earlier, all this "it's not fair" whining is stupid.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Whitmore Lake, MI

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#43
Dec 30, 2012
 

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It all comes down to Makers and Takers..... Too many entitlements out there......

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