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Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#246
Jan 17, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>You can't even follow the course of what you write. You ended with a question, "What does it really hurt for you to be dumb all your life?" to which my response was the answer.

There is a difference between ignorance and dumb. In this case it's not that you're ignorant.
True. When one holds your opinions as a teenager it is based on ignorance.

When one holds your opinions as a young adult it is based on stupidity.

When one holds your opinions as an older adult it is based on stupidity and jealousy.

When one holds your opinions as an elected official it is based on malevolence towards the American ideology.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#247
Jan 17, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
True. When one holds your opinions as a teenager it is based on ignorance.
When one holds your opinions as a young adult it is based on stupidity.
When one holds your opinions as an older adult it is based on stupidity and jealousy.
When one holds your opinions as an elected official it is based on malevolence towards the American ideology.
And those are YOUR opinions.

Where my opinion of yours are someone who wants to return this country to a Plutocracy. You would just as soon take all restrictions of those who already have the most, and don't try to kid me, that it's because they worked so much harder or those who don't have it haven't.

When you honestly believe we could relieve the richest and corporations of ALL taxes it would make any measurable difference in the economy as a whole is ludicrous.

No you haven't said that verbatim but that's what it comes down to in the wash.

You can twist and turn and divert and take all the side trips with their smoke and mirrors to divert the subject at hand all you want. You still haven't proven the "bottom 50%" don't pay any Federal taxes.

Whatever you think, the American ideology was never about those who could and/or did get the richest should run roughshod over everyone else. What you preach is the tyranny of the ruling glass being the way it is, should be because that's the way it is.

Don't try and blame the bastardization of the American ideology on me when it's you that that's promoting it. When it comes to the "American ideology" YOU would be the Tory.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#248
Jan 18, 2013
 

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Gotta love how the progressives exaggerate and call them facts. Now, apparently, the right wants to relieve the richest and corporations of ALL taxes? Who in the heck proposed that one??? I despair of the progressives in this country ever getting a clue. It's a shame really, this country was a great country until the progessives decided it needed to resemble the European Union instead. Some day, I hope I live long enough to see that the people (all people, not just one group) understand that life is NOT fair, wasn't designed to be that way, and fairness cannot be legislated.
Bob

Big Rapids, MI

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#249
Jan 18, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
Looking at some the the tables of what is going to taxed. Looks like you people who have no "skin in the game" (VP Biden)are about to feel the bliss that we producers have dealt with for decades. Takers be prepared.... Hope the earned income tax credit gets taken out.....
According to your other thread, all of these people now have skin in the game.........

They're just like you now, so what are you going to whine about next?
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#250
Jan 18, 2013
 
Really wrote:
Gotta love how the progressives exaggerate and call them facts. Now, apparently, the right wants to relieve the richest and corporations of ALL taxes? Who in the heck proposed that one??? I despair of the progressives in this country ever getting a clue. It's a shame really, this country was a great country until the progessives decided it needed to resemble the European Union instead. Some day, I hope I live long enough to see that the people (all people, not just one group) understand that life is NOT fair, wasn't designed to be that way, and fairness cannot be legislated.
The fact of the matter is if "the rich" were to pay 5% in taxes while the remaining paid 25% the rich would still moan whine and cry that they pay more in the total Federal tax intake. And it would probably be true. In dollars.

What you haven't figured out is an economy is worthless when only a fraction of the population can survive on what is left after tax. And if you think the economy would be held together under such a scenario you have no sense of the historical evidence that it can't. You don't even have a grasp on the present day evidence that it isn't working.

And actually that has little to do with the taxation issue with the United States holding firmly to 43rd place in wealth distribution disparity. The United States still the richest country on the planet yet 43rd in wealth inequity. Something you can be proud of I'm sure. The Bill Gates' of the country having SUCH a hard time getting by under the horrid tax load he has had to bear. But then you figure they worked the hard for their wealth and all those not didn't for theirs.

Since: Feb 08

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#251
Jan 18, 2013
 

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Good Day,

And if Obama gets his way, we will all be paying more. Hello VAT.

Steelie
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#252
Jan 18, 2013
 

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SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
The fact of the matter is if "the rich" were to pay 5% in taxes while the remaining paid 25% the rich would still moan whine and cry that they pay more in the total Federal tax intake. And it would probably be true. In dollars.
What you haven't figured out is an economy is worthless when only a fraction of the population can survive on what is left after tax. And if you think the economy would be held together under such a scenario you have no sense of the historical evidence that it can't. You don't even have a grasp on the present day evidence that it isn't working.
And actually that has little to do with the taxation issue with the United States holding firmly to 43rd place in wealth distribution disparity. The United States still the richest country on the planet yet 43rd in wealth inequity. Something you can be proud of I'm sure. The Bill Gates' of the country having SUCH a hard time getting by under the horrid tax load he has had to bear. But then you figure they worked the hard for their wealth and all those not didn't for theirs.
Careful there, SIB, you may stroke out. Besides, why on earth are you slamming your fellow elitist, Bill Gates? As for the wealth inequity number, whatever, SIB, whatever. You sure get your undies in a bunch over "it's not fair." Sooo, prove who said that they don't want the wealthy and corporations to pay any taxes AT ALL...who said it...put up the link or are you just flinging poo again? Never mind, I know.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#253
Jan 18, 2013
 

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Really wrote:
<quoted text>Careful there, SIB, you may stroke out. Besides, why on earth are you slamming your fellow elitist, Bill Gates? As for the wealth inequity number, whatever, SIB, whatever. You sure get your undies in a bunch over "it's not fair." Sooo, prove who said that they don't want the wealthy and corporations to pay any taxes AT ALL...who said it...put up the link or are you just flinging poo again? Never mind, I know.
My opinion of what one is insinuating directed to them is not yours to say I am stating as a blanket one covering everyone. You really do need to take some comprehension courses.

Again with the comprehension problem. I never said I have a problem with Bill Gates. That's your preferred perception of what I am saying.

So in the context of what I actually said you believe Bill Gates, or even the upper 10%, or even the upper 25%, that is being said pays the greatest share of tax, especially considering they control 75% of the national wealth, really have a problem surviving the economy after tax?
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#254
Jan 18, 2013
 
Steelie wrote:
Good Day,
And if Obama gets his way, we will all be paying more. Hello VAT.
Steelie
Okay Steelie I would like to see where you get a VAT is Obama's idea.

"The problem with the VAT for Obama is that it is a flat tax. The poor cannot escape from it. If they buy something, they pay this tax. Even worse from the point of view of Obama, everybody pays the same percentage. Rich and poor, middle class and lower middle class, everybody who makes a retail purchase is paying the same percentage of his income.

This is why the Democratic Party NEVER comes out in favor of the VAT. The VAT is ideologically irreconcilable with the wealth distribution policy of the Democratic Party. The Democrats want the rich to pay a higher percentage of their income to the government than the poor man pays. With the VAT, everybody pays the same."

Which a VAT would be the same as a sales tax but thus far there is no Federal sales tax...that I am aware of.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#255
Jan 19, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay Steelie I would like to see where you get a VAT is Obama's idea.
"The problem with the VAT for Obama is that it is a flat tax. The poor cannot escape from it. If they buy something, they pay this tax. Even worse from the point of view of Obama, everybody pays the same percentage. Rich and poor, middle class and lower middle class, everybody who makes a retail purchase is paying the same percentage of his income.
This is why the Democratic Party NEVER comes out in favor of the VAT. The VAT is ideologically irreconcilable with the wealth distribution policy of the Democratic Party. The Democrats want the rich to pay a higher percentage of their income to the government than the poor man pays. With the VAT, everybody pays the same."
Which a VAT would be the same as a sales tax but thus far there is no Federal sales tax...that I am aware of.
We agree SIB, Obama and the Democrats would never be in favor of anything that would tax all people equally. They would be left without one of their basic tenants..class warfare and class envy.

Since: Feb 08

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#256
Jan 19, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay Steelie I would like to see where you get a VAT is Obama's idea.
"The problem with the VAT for Obama is that it is a flat tax. The poor cannot escape from it. If they buy something, they pay this tax. Even worse from the point of view of Obama, everybody pays the same percentage. Rich and poor, middle class and lower middle class, everybody who makes a retail purchase is paying the same percentage of his income.
This is why the Democratic Party NEVER comes out in favor of the VAT. The VAT is ideologically irreconcilable with the wealth distribution policy of the Democratic Party. The Democrats want the rich to pay a higher percentage of their income to the government than the poor man pays. With the VAT, everybody pays the same."
Which a VAT would be the same as a sales tax but thus far there is no Federal sales tax...that I am aware of.
Good Day,

Yet Obama himself has said, ostensibly, a VAT is “something that would be novel for the United States". Who did Obama choose as the chairman of the Chairman of his Council of Economic Advisers? Alan B. Krueger - who, has called for a 5% consumption tax (AKA VAT). Or John Podesta who said consumption tax would “create a balance” with European and Japanese economies and “could potentially have a substantial effect on competitiveness".(Yeah, for them not us.) And on and on and on. The VAT would not replace the existing tax code, but instead be added to it. The statedgy is clear. Spending has already been jacked up to levels never seen before, which in turn has lead to a fiscal crisis (aka Fiscal Cliff). Then, in order to save this precious spending as it is just so important, that it would be irresponsible to cut this record spending, the hammer comes down. Once enough "drones" are convinced, it is off to the debt commision for their recomendation which will most certainly be the addition of the VAT.

Steelie
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#257
Jan 19, 2013
 
Steelie wrote:
<quoted text>
Good Day,
Yet Obama himself has said, ostensibly, a VAT is “something that would be novel for the United States". Who did Obama choose as the chairman of the Chairman of his Council of Economic Advisers? Alan B. Krueger - who, has called for a 5% consumption tax (AKA VAT). Or John Podesta who said consumption tax would “create a balance” with European and Japanese economies and “could potentially have a substantial effect on competitiveness".(Yeah, for them not us.) And on and on and on. The VAT would not replace the existing tax code, but instead be added to it. The statedgy is clear. Spending has already been jacked up to levels never seen before, which in turn has lead to a fiscal crisis (aka Fiscal Cliff). Then, in order to save this precious spending as it is just so important, that it would be irresponsible to cut this record spending, the hammer comes down. Once enough "drones" are convinced, it is off to the debt commision for their recomendation which will most certainly be the addition of the VAT.
Steelie
I need to make it clear, again, I am not in favor of a VAT. Yet your stating “could potentially have a substantial effect on competitiveness".(Yeah, for them not us.)" is not actually accurate. I'll have to see if I can find it again but American companies make more profits in foreign countries than they do here. And on a global scale Europe has 179 of the largest corporations to the United State's 140.

The only favor I could see to a VAT is if all the rest of the "hidden" federal taxes were taken off replacing them in the VAT.

Like I said, I'll have to go back and see if I can find what I was talking about because it wasn't on the front burner of what I had been researching and I didn't bookmark it.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#258
Jan 19, 2013
 
Really wrote:
<quoted text>We agree SIB, Obama and the Democrats would never be in favor of anything that would tax all people equally. They would be left without one of their basic tenants..class warfare and class envy.
I guess it all depends on your definition of equal. If I'm making $3Million a year and you're making $65,000 a year and we both pay 25% in taxes at least it's equal taxation isn't it. And remember with my $3million I'm in the top 20% controlling 53% of the national wealth while you are among the 99% having to divide up the remaining 47%. But at least we're being taxed equally.

A 50% tax on me and a 10% tax on you still allows me to live SO much better than you. But lets tax us equally. I'll be even better off. And no, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with my being so much better off. I'm saying it's going to make your life SO much less affordable.

Those are just the numbers I used to get a point across. Here are the actual numbers: http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/we...
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#259
Jan 19, 2013
 
Correction: the 80% having to divide up the remaining 47%

Since: Feb 08

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#260
Jan 19, 2013
 

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SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
I need to make it clear, again, I am not in favor of a VAT. Yet your stating “could potentially have a substantial effect on competitiveness".(Yeah, for them not us.)" is not actually accurate. I'll have to see if I can find it again but American companies make more profits in foreign countries than they do here. And on a global scale Europe has 179 of the largest corporations to the United State's 140.
The only favor I could see to a VAT is if all the rest of the "hidden" federal taxes were taken off replacing them in the VAT.
Like I said, I'll have to go back and see if I can find what I was talking about because it wasn't on the front burner of what I had been researching and I didn't bookmark it.
Good Day,

Not necassarily so. Have you been to (Western) Europe lately? Nearly everything costs almost twice as much as it does here, in large part due to their VAT. A so called "middle class" family in Western Europe is worse of than many of our so called "poor". They can't afford a car, and live in much smaller spaces. As far as competitiveness, this will only serve to allow foriegn made products even more of an advantage. Therefore perhaps forcing even more layoffs and moving jobs overseas as US companies cannot compete in country (due to VAT) against foriegn goods from non-VAT countries.(Unless we tempt a massive trade war.) More importantly, what do you think it is going to do to your grocery bill? How many people are going to able to afford $10+ a pound ground beef? Gas at or near $8-$10 per gallon?$7 for a pound of simple bologna? I wonder...

Steelie
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#261
Jan 20, 2013
 

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SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess it all depends on your definition of equal. If I'm making $3Million a year and you're making $65,000 a year and we both pay 25% in taxes at least it's equal taxation isn't it. And remember with my $3million I'm in the top 20% controlling 53% of the national wealth while you are among the 99% having to divide up the remaining 47%. But at least we're being taxed equally.
A 50% tax on me and a 10% tax on you still allows me to live SO much better than you. But lets tax us equally. I'll be even better off. And no, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with my being so much better off. I'm saying it's going to make your life SO much less affordable.
Those are just the numbers I used to get a point across. Here are the actual numbers: http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/we...
Life is NOT fair and wasn't designed to be that way. IF I want more wealth, I guess I can figure out how to get it, can't I? THAT'S what the progressives don't understand and never will. You are the perfect example of that principle.
Bob

Big Rapids, MI

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#262
Jan 20, 2013
 
Really wrote:
<quoted text>Life is NOT fair and wasn't designed to be that way.
The next time you want to whine about the latest election results, please refer to your response as shown above.........

Wah, wah, wah!
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#263
Jan 20, 2013
 
Steelie wrote:
<quoted text>
Good Day,
Not necassarily so. Have you been to (Western) Europe lately? Nearly everything costs almost twice as much as it does here, in large part due to their VAT. A so called "middle class" family in Western Europe is worse of than many of our so called "poor". They can't afford a car, and live in much smaller spaces. As far as competitiveness, this will only serve to allow foriegn made products even more of an advantage. Therefore perhaps forcing even more layoffs and moving jobs overseas as US companies cannot compete in country (due to VAT) against foriegn goods from non-VAT countries.(Unless we tempt a massive trade war.) More importantly, what do you think it is going to do to your grocery bill? How many people are going to able to afford $10+ a pound ground beef? Gas at or near $8-$10 per gallon?$7 for a pound of simple bologna? I wonder...
Steelie
Nothing you said Steelie related to what I said. When I get the chance to go back and dig through I'll post the link and you can argue with them.

Again, and again, and again, I am not in favor of a VAT. I do recognize though the differences is discussing and debating the different avenues of how to rectify an issue and automatically deeming any one as to what will be done. We, as a country, have been through this VAT "debate" before. And we will continue to until this idea that this country was set up to advantage ONLY the individual(s) is abandoned.

Yes it was set up to give more individual freedom(s). But NEVER at the cost of the [new] countries General Welfare. Tea Partiers of today are lacking 80% of the meaning of the Boston Tea Party, their name sake. It was about shaking off the tyranny of the powerful. And that is not restricted to just the government. There is a line Mel Gibson says in The Patriot; why should I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants one mile away? Yes he was talking about a Legislature, a government, but it also holds true for any tyrannical power. And unless one is looking through eyes with blinders on money buys EVERYTHING today. Well, it always has, but.... And the moneyed few, unless you want to deny there is the 1%, has purchased our government all but completely. INCLUDING foreign moneyed influences. But the way the right-wing would have it is kill the patient (government)rather than first take all measures to rid them of the disease. And the system our Founding Fathers set up has made it possible for the People to do just that.

It's an age only syndrome. There have always been those who believe they can become as rich and powerful as others are and they certainly don't want a system changed that will hinder it. If only I can hold onto the coat tails of those who have made it to where I want to be, I'll get there too.

To your point though. I would never say Europe has it so much better than we do. But the advantages our country has gives it NO EXCUSE for the situation we are in.

Watch the movie, more of a documentary, Collapse.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#264
Jan 20, 2013
 
Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
The next time you want to whine about the latest election results, please refer to your response as shown above.........
Wah, wah, wah!
Ummmm, I have NOT whined about the election results, unless of course, you in your normal pathetic way call my saying, "You got who you voted for" whining, in which case, whatever Boob.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#265
Jan 20, 2013
 
Really wrote:
<quoted text>Life is NOT fair and wasn't designed to be that way. IF I want more wealth, I guess I can figure out how to get it, can't I? THAT'S what the progressives don't understand and never will. You are the perfect example of that principle.
"Life wasn't designed to be fair", and you know this how? Are you now claiming to be God? I would be very interesting to see how you came to KNOW life wasn't designed to be fair. It isn't? Yes that's true. But I can show you innumerable things, situations, etc. even that weren't designed to be one way but were turned into something much better. Because someone had the will to make it better.

You have just proven you are the perfect example of a conservative by not understanding and most importantly not wanting to improve on anything. Remember the root word of progressive is progress. While the root word of conservative is con. Know how to use a dictionary?

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