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261 - 280 of 359 Comments Last updated Mar 11, 2013
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#300
Feb 26, 2013
 
And another thing: Please provide the proof of when the last time the tax code was put on the ballot for the people to vote on. Most representatives are no longer representatives of the People. They are representatives of the corporate and wealthy powers that finance their election campaigns.

Lobbyists write the majority of legislation. And it is not written in any way shape or form to benefit of the People first.

I am in favor of going the measure to cure the patient [government] of the cancer [corruption] it they have than I am killing the patient [government] because they have it like you are. I don't celebrate how the cancer functions like you do.
OhOhObama

Grand Rapids, MI

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#301
Feb 26, 2013
 

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How old are you sir, 67
Hmm goto room 125,

Do you smoke, yep
goto room 93

I see you are male.
Goto room 45

Did you fill out form 5467.9 ? no
goto room 236

..........finaly
made it room 7036.

step into the chamber sir
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#302
Feb 26, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
Only if someone says that everyone won't be insured (although many will choose not to).
MA showed that the cost will be significantly above what was sold to the people. As I said, insurance costs have already gone up and they system isn't even fully in place. If your costs go up by 20% now, how will you react when it goes up by 50%?
Basic economics shows that the quality of medical care will go down for the country as a whole. There is already a lack of doctors and with the new system, the prediction is that it will get worse.
None of this is "fear mongering" it is just dealing with basic reality of economics, statistics and human nature. If you have an alternative universe where math doesn't work, then ACA will be fine there. Here, not so much.
That you believe that crap is the scariest part. There is no good reason for the costs of medical increasing already. The medical industry is a highly controlled market. Just like if diamond supply wasn't so completely controlled by DeBeers they would become mostly worthless except for the most rare.

And there is no good cause for the price of health insurance going up already except it has such support from nonsensical explanations like you glean from the fear mongering anti Obamaists.

"Controlling the supply

The marketplace doesn't determine how many doctors the nation has, as it does for engineers, pilots and other professions. The number of doctors is a political decision, heavily influenced by doctors themselves.

Congress controls the supply of physicians by how much federal funding it provides for medical residencies — the graduate training required of all doctors."
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/20...
Sound like another form of government over spending to you?

"Bottom Line: One reason we might have a “health care crisis” due to rising medical costs, and the world’s highest physician salaries is that we turn away 57.3% of the applicants to medical schools. What we have is a form of a “medical cartel,: which significantly restricts the supply of physicians, and thereby gives its members monopoly power to charge above-market prices for their services.

In his classic book Capitalism and Freedom, Milton Friedman describes the American Medical Association (AMA) as the “strongest trade union in the United States” and documents the ways in which the AMA vigorously restricts competition. The Council on Medical Education and Hospitals of the AMA approves both medical schools and hospitals. By restricting the number of approved medical schools and the number of applicants to those schools, the AMA limits the supply of physicians. In the same way that OPEC was able to quadruple the price of oil in the 1970s by restricting output, the AMA has increased their fees by restricting the supply of physicians."
http://wallstreetpit.com/5769-the-medical-car...
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

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#303
Feb 26, 2013
 

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Really wrote:
<quoted text>Running around lapping up SIB's leftovers are you? You must be little lap dog, because I KNOW you are too lazy to look anything up yourself.
o wise one:

For your assignment today, please review posts 111, 120, and 128 then get back to me next week. Thank you.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Plainwell, MI

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#304
Feb 26, 2013
 

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Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Every right wing radical comes up with dire warnings of impending doom to health care once the ACA kicks into high gear. And yet, we have a perfect example of what will happen sitting right in the State of Massachusetts.
So show us the examples......
How many people don't have health insurance in that state?
How many doctors and hospitals folded up and quit?
Who sits on that state's DEATH PANELS?
Name the names of all the victims who died because they were denied health care.
Prove that the unemployment there is so much higher than the national average.
If all of the things you whack jobs say is true, then FAUX News would be doing hourly reports of how bad things are in that state....... So far, nothing but silence!
They are broke....... To put ACA up as a blanket cure all is a mistake..... The whack jobs are people who do not look at what a single payer program does to an entire country...... England comes to mind......
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#305
Feb 26, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Business has enough like you and Really and others that kiss the ground business "walks on". Someone has to balance the fantasies with the realities. But then you don't believe in checks and balances. Probably why you are so in favor of everything business and nothing government and nothing the lowly non-wealthy.
The do tell dear boy. What is the purpose of business? It's contrived to supply the masses? Like Larry the cable guy says on the commercials...we make everything you want and a whole lot more of what you don't know you want?
Is it maybe business owners have so much money they have to find a way to get it to other people so they create jobs? How's that been worken out? How does that explain the unemployment numbers?
Don't even bother. Only the unintelligent would believe the purpose of business isn't to make the owners money.
As much as it irritates me to have to once more try and clarify my position, I will. Not that I believe it will make any difference to some because they most prefer to demonize those who don't walk directly behind them.

I AM NOT an enemy of business. I am an enemy of it's practices that are so totally self serving as to take advantage of others. I know of a partner in a business that wanted to lay off some people because he wanted to build an additional third home in another desirable place and laying people made it affordable for him to do it. As just one example. But hey, that's just business isn't it.

I am an enemy of businesses that "bribe" government officials to get advantages that regular tax payers will have to make up the shortfalls for just so they can add to their profit margins. Then whine and moan some more for lower taxes when they are making multiple millions to billions, getting government subsidies to increase top management salaries and bonuses. But hey, that's just business isn't it.

As was mentioned in the one article I linked there are large corporations that have the advantages of tax rates that others don't. Leaving those businesses to bear the burden they can't afford to "bribe" their way out of. Proving tax rates are not created equal even for business. But hey, that's just business isn't it.

I am a friend of small business and the struggles they have to stay solvent because the "tax and regulation system" has been manipulated by more powerful companies to advantage only those that can afford it. But hey, that's just business isn't it.

I have no difficulty with building wealth when it is done through honorable practices.

As Bill Gates and Microsoft was brought up I have no issue with Bill Gates becoming the richest man in the world. He was very focused and entrepreneurial without the notion of becoming the richest man in the world. BUT it is of record that Microsoft released Windows 3.11 for Work Groups with know bugs. And when customers called for support on the bugs Microsoft told them the only correction was to purchase the fix. As, again, just one example. But hey, that's just business isn't it.

But for anyone to believe he had no vision of making as much money as possible is dreaming.

I have just become one that refuses to any longer be so dreamy eyed about business to ignore when it acts inappropriately.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#306
Feb 26, 2013
 
Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Every right wing radical comes up with dire warnings of impending doom to health care once the ACA kicks into high gear. And yet, we have a perfect example of what will happen sitting right in the State of Massachusetts.
So show us the examples......
How many people don't have health insurance in that state?
How many doctors and hospitals folded up and quit?
Who sits on that state's DEATH PANELS?
Name the names of all the victims who died because they were denied health care.
Prove that the unemployment there is so much higher than the national average.
If all of the things you whack jobs say is true, then FAUX News would be doing hourly reports of how bad things are in that state....... So far, nothing but silence!
I have a very close and good friend that is about as anti-government anti-liberal and anti national health care as you'd find anywhere. He believes like so many others that when the government gets involved our health care system with collapse very expensively.

He had some very serious medical problems that hospitalized him several times and for long periods of time. Literally a life threatening issue. They go out of state for the winter and experienced a relapse out west. Had to travel a very long distance to get medical help at a hospital. The procedure they performed turned out to be only a stop gap.

Finally he went to the VA. He's a veteran. They corrrected his issue completely without having any kind of a relapse whatsoever. He has nothing but praise for the VA and nothing but disdain for the private health care system.

I said to him; you don't understand that the VA is government single payer health care? Hew looked at me and said there is NOTHING good that can ever come from national health care.

So, a mind set is a mind set immovable by facts when it comes to despise for government.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Plainwell, MI

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#307
Feb 26, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
I have a very close and good friend that is about as anti-government anti-liberal and anti national health care as you'd find anywhere. He believes like so many others that when the government gets involved our health care system with collapse very expensively.
He had some very serious medical problems that hospitalized him several times and for long periods of time. Literally a life threatening issue. They go out of state for the winter and experienced a relapse out west. Had to travel a very long distance to get medical help at a hospital. The procedure they performed turned out to be only a stop gap.
Finally he went to the VA. He's a veteran. They corrrected his issue completely without having any kind of a relapse whatsoever. He has nothing but praise for the VA and nothing but disdain for the private health care system.
I said to him; you don't understand that the VA is government single payer health care? Hew looked at me and said there is NOTHING good that can ever come from national health care.
So, a mind set is a mind set immovable by facts when it comes to despise for government.
Roughly 1% of citizens are veterans and the VA was set up to care for them...... Should not be a problem to care for vets...... However, I am hearing stories from our newest vets that cracks are developing..... I don't mind supporting that dept..... 350 million will be an impossible task and then throw in another 25 million illegals.......
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#308
Feb 26, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
That's an outright false accusation of your own design. I just recognize the realities of doing business and not bow down to the alter of business is this altruistic benevolent venture.
If you want to believe business is not for the purpose of enrichment of it's owners and/or stock holders that is your delusion.
Nothing false about it SIB. You have a very clear disdain for business. Why? I don't know and frankly, I don't care. You throw around all your better than thou platitudes about fairness and the poor, but in reality, you are just like everyone in DC. And yes, I said everyone. No on in DC cares one whit about anyone but their own pocketbooks. You are no different. You just want everyone to think you know more and are different. If you walk like an elitist and talk like an elitist, you are one. The poor and middle class mean zilch to you because they can't do anything for you and business recognizes you for what you are.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#309
Feb 26, 2013
 
Really wrote:
<quoted text>Nothing false about it SIB. You have a very clear disdain for business. Why? I don't know and frankly, I don't care. You throw around all your better than thou platitudes about fairness and the poor, but in reality, you are just like everyone in DC. And yes, I said everyone. No on in DC cares one whit about anyone but their own pocketbooks. You are no different. You just want everyone to think you know more and are different. If you walk like an elitist and talk like an elitist, you are one. The poor and middle class mean zilch to you because they can't do anything for you and business recognizes you for what you are.
Apparently you missed my post #305. But then my prefix in it pretty much says how much it will mean.
Bob

Big Rapids, MI

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#310
Feb 27, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
Only if someone says that everyone won't be insured (although many will choose not to).
MA showed that the cost will be significantly above what was sold to the people. As I said, insurance costs have already gone up and they system isn't even fully in place. If your costs go up by 20% now, how will you react when it goes up by 50%?
Basic economics shows that the quality of medical care will go down for the country as a whole. There is already a lack of doctors and with the new system, the prediction is that it will get worse.
None of this is "fear mongering" it is just dealing with basic reality of economics, statistics and human nature. If you have an alternative universe where math doesn't work, then ACA will be fine there. Here, not so much.
So your 50% is a proven fact and not fear mongering.....

Gotcha, let's just repeal Obamacare. When nobody has the insurance to pay for medical care - Doctors will get paid more!
Bob

Big Rapids, MI

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#311
Feb 27, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>They are broke....... To put ACA up as a blanket cure all is a mistake..... The whack jobs are people who do not look at what a single payer program does to an entire country...... England comes to mind......
Thanks for your unproven opinion....... Whenever this country is run by a gawd-like frenchman, you're in like flint!
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Plainwell, MI

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#312
Feb 27, 2013
 
Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for your unproven opinion....... Whenever this country is run by a gawd-like frenchman, you're in like flint!
Here is one from Australia who has state run health care......

http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/latest/a/-/local...
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Plainwell, MI

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#313
Feb 27, 2013
 
Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for your unproven opinion....... Whenever this country is run by a gawd-like frenchman, you're in like flint!
Sorry Bobbie, my ancestors arrived in North America 17th century and left France behind..... France is a real mess today and the O wants us to be like them...... I prefer rugged individualism.......
Bob

Big Rapids, MI

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#314
Feb 27, 2013
 
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Here is one from Australia who has state run health care......
http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/latest/a/-/local...
My question dealt with the State of Massachusetts.

Nice try at deflection though..... Take one-half a point!
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#315
Feb 27, 2013
 
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Here is one from Australia who has state run health care......
http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/latest/a/-/local...
Here's what's wrong with you using articles like that one for your argument(s). It was not the [state run health] system that caused the issue. It's the people working within it.

Apparently you missed where the Federal Health Minister AND the State's Opposition spokesman stated it was unacceptable.

And also missed "In this case, staff have spoken regularly with the patient, however she has not raised a concern or complaint about her care".

Time will tell where the actual fault lies.

Be it a completely privatized system or a state or national system it all revolves around money now doesn't it. Be it there isn't enough money to run the system "properly" or the those who use the system don't have enough to pay for it. For you to believe this type of thing, and even worse doesn't and hasn't happened in completely privatized systems is delusional.
Chip

Madison, WI

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#316
Feb 27, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's what's wrong with you using articles like that one for your argument(s). It was not the [state run health] system that caused the issue. It's the people working within it.
Apparently you missed where the Federal Health Minister AND the State's Opposition spokesman stated it was unacceptable.
And also missed "In this case, staff have spoken regularly with the patient, however she has not raised a concern or complaint about her care".
Time will tell where the actual fault lies.
Be it a completely privatized system or a state or national system it all revolves around money now doesn't it. Be it there isn't enough money to run the system "properly" or the those who use the system don't have enough to pay for it. For you to believe this type of thing, and even worse doesn't and hasn't happened in completely privatized systems is delusional.
Ms Jones says she was forced to deliver her own baby in the early hours of Wednesday morning.

"[I was] screaming out like 'the baby's coming. Where are you? The baby's coming'

Fellow patient Danielle was sharing the room with Ms Jones and says she helped deliver the baby.

"I could hear her moaning and it became quite loud and didn't sound right to me," she said.

So it sounds to me like you don't believe anything from the two people who were there. You however do believe the general manager who was not present at the time.

And finally you admit that being a government run system doesn't solve any problems.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#317
Feb 27, 2013
 
Chip wrote:
<quoted text>
Ms Jones says she was forced to deliver her own baby in the early hours of Wednesday morning.
"[I was] screaming out like 'the baby's coming. Where are you? The baby's coming'
Fellow patient Danielle was sharing the room with Ms Jones and says she helped deliver the baby.
"I could hear her moaning and it became quite loud and didn't sound right to me," she said.
So it sounds to me like you don't believe anything from the two people who were there. You however do believe the general manager who was not present at the time.
And finally you admit that being a government run system doesn't solve any problems.
I didn't say I don't believe anything from the two people there. You do.

I said quite clearly it's not the system so much as it is the people working within the system. The people are the weakest or strongest links in a system. They are capable of determining to work stringently within it's boundaries or vary from them when necessary.

What a government system would solve is availability of the same level of health care to EVERYONE whereas the privatized system restricts the best levels of care to those able to afford it. Even at that those who do have insurance but can or can't afford [whatever] the charges over and above what insurance will pay.

Looking through history to when the hospitalization health care system was by law non-profit it wasn't as contentious as it is now that its based in profits.

Affordability has been the issue since national health care was first conceived in the 1800s. Although it has been a much larger issue since health care had been included in the GNP.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#318
Mar 1, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Business has enough like you and Really and others that kiss the ground business "walks on". Someone has to balance the fantasies with the realities. But then you don't believe in checks and balances. Probably why you are so in favor of everything business and nothing government and nothing the lowly non-wealthy.
The do tell dear boy. What is the purpose of business? It's contrived to supply the masses? Like Larry the cable guy says on the commercials...we make everything you want and a whole lot more of what you don't know you want?
Is it maybe business owners have so much money they have to find a way to get it to other people so they create jobs? How's that been worken out? How does that explain the unemployment numbers?
Don't even bother. Only the unintelligent would believe the purpose of business isn't to make the owners money.
I do believe in checks and balances. I just believe that those who hold themselves up as superior and dicate those checks and balances always unbalance things as well, in a worse way, and generally in favor of another "superior" group rather than the general population.

I know lots of business owners that aren't rich, including a number of them that lost everything they had as their business went under. As I said, no one who succeeds in business ever starts a company with the purpose of getting rich. Making a living and supporting the family, yes. Getting rich, no. There is a saying that "you need health to live, but you don't live to be healthy". Profits are like that for business. A company needs profits to continue, but profits are not what the business is for.

If you want to talk to folks who go into something specificially to get rich, talk to athletes.

You keep talking about how the purpose of business is to make the owners rich. Can you actually give an example of anyone who, when they started their business did so to become rich? Show me a quote from Bill Gates that says we he and Paul were punks in Phoenix writing code that they started their business simply to get rich. Or a quote from Sam Walton that he opened his first store so that he could own his own jet. Or from Ellison on how he started SDL in '77 to become a billionaire.

Can you provide a handful of quotes from people who say they went started a company to become rich and greedy? I'm betting you can't.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#319
Mar 1, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
And another thing: Please provide the proof of when the last time the tax code was put on the ballot for the people to vote on. Most representatives are no longer representatives of the People. They are representatives of the corporate and wealthy powers that finance their election campaigns.
Lobbyists write the majority of legislation. And it is not written in any way shape or form to benefit of the People first.
I am in favor of going the measure to cure the patient [government] of the cancer [corruption] it they have than I am killing the patient [government] because they have it like you are. I don't celebrate how the cancer functions like you do.
You are once again confused. Only someone on heavy meds would believe that I celebrate how the government functions.

As I said before, if we eliminated all government services, the world would continue to spin and life would go on. It would certainly be different, but it would function effectively. OTOH, if we transferred all business functions to the government and eliminated profits and private enterprise, things would shut down very fast.

If I look around, their are very few times I've been screwed over by a business, even a big one. The fact that Gates makes a bunch of money has almost zero impact on my life or income. At best he has cost me a few cents over my lifetime. On the other hand, stupid, wastefull government services costs me thousands of dollars every year.

Oh, and if you want to get rid of the lobbyists, get rid of the government. The only way to truly get rid of vermin is to eliminate the source of the food. Otherwise you just change the type of vermin but it is still vermin feeding from the food trough.

Liberals want to increase the size of the trough and believe that they can make the vermin magically disappear. Again, ignoring reality and history.

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