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St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#1
Nov 8, 2012
 

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White evangelical Christians no longer matter. For the last 223 years one group has had the biggest impact on the overall vote. For the last 40+ years or so the GOP has placed all their eggs in one basket to make sure they kept them. From Nixon's southern strategy to their latest stance on immigration. They have disenfranchised the poor, the working class, younger Americans, the gays, the pro-choice, the non-protestants and anyone of color. They felt they didn't need them and they were right for a while. We now know it's longer the case.

They can still win in various pockets of America, west Michigan for example, at the local level. They can still send reps to the senate or the house and win with their white, religious ideology. The problem is they won't be able to take back the White House in their current state.

This what will happen if they continue to rely on the WECs: They will get elected in local elections on their extreme right wing Christian values, like no abortion exceptions for rape victims, because those are the only ones the WECs will vote for. They will serve in congress or at the state level but if they get tapped for POTUS or VP their past and their ideology will kill their chances of getting elected.

In this case Romney had to move to the right in order to win the nomination. He wasn't a WEC but they tried their best to turn him into one. In order to win the nomination Romney did a 180 on many issues, including health care refrom and immigration because he knew without the WECs he had zero chance. Enter Ryan. His Ying to Romney's Yang. He balanced the ticket and won over even more WECs. In the end though Ryan had very little impact at the national level, he didn't even win Wisconsin for him.

Welcome to the new America. The one where we value diversity and the one where no single demographic dominates all others. This is the country our founders envisioned. We all have a voice. This will continue to anger the WECs, especially those over 50 (did you see Limbaugh slobbering all over the mic yesterday?). They realize they have been marginalized and America is forever changed. They will continue to hang empty chairs from trees and we will continue to hear the comparisons between our first black president and various creatures within the animal community. Are they really that upset at Obama? I doubt it, I think what really bothers them most is that they are no longer relevant. They no longer can decide elections all by themselves. Their majority status has been demoted to minority status.

It is ironic. The same group that forced it's ideals on the rest of the nation for 223 years is now in the same position as the groups that they silenced and pushed aside. It seems as things have run full circle.

Though they still posess great power it will continue to diminish. Eventually the WECs will be a shadow of what they were, probably within the next 15-20 years.

The GOP will be forced to abandon their archaic ideals as these aging WECs continue to die off. They will be replaced with other WECs for sure but with those who are more willing to accept change and embrace diversity. In the end we will be better off as a country.

I don't feel bad for them, they did it to themselves. For the last four years we have been hearing their abrasive rhetoric and their attempts at turning our first minority president into an unAmerican, Socialist monster. We've heard and seen examples of 'code' from signs in people's yards calling for 'Taking Our Country Back' to fictional books being written about who Obama's parents were. Time and time again they have tried to tear Obama down with character assasinations that have no basis in reality. We've heard so much of it that it actually caused MORE African Americans to vote this time for Obama than the last time, something no one thought would happen.

Welcome to minority status. Make yourself comfortable.
Ginger

Holland, MI

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#2
Nov 8, 2012
 
St Stephen wrote:
White evangelical Christians no longer matter.
And they just plain stink!

By the way, anybody know what happened to Dingo?
Did he take his ball and run away again?
I hope the dear boy's alright and that his head didn't explode or something from all the anger.
We do still love him.
St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#3
Nov 8, 2012
 
Ginger wrote:
<quoted text>
And they just plain stink!
By the way, anybody know what happened to Dingo?
Did he take his ball and run away again?
I hope the dear boy's alright and that his head didn't explode or something from all the anger.
We do still love him.
Maybe he finally found a job? Stopped living off the government dole?
Ginger

Holland, MI

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Nov 8, 2012
 

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St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe he finally found a job? Stopped living off the government dole?
I think he's held a job all along.
It's just one of those trickle down minimum wage one's that makes him so danged miserable all the time.

Since: Feb 08

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#5
Nov 8, 2012
 

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Good Day,

With all due respect I do not completely agree with this assesment (no suprise). The picture is still developing in terms of how the vote went down. Romeny won in every so called "bible belt" state which would indicate he actually got the Evengelical vote despite pundits arguing they would not due to his religious beliefs. When we look at the state counts, Romney won 24 States which is considered pretty close in some circles.

The problem is that the GOP has a branding issue. Obama, Alelrod, Wasserman-Shultz did an excellent job of getting their message out and demonizing Republicans. It is one of the things they do best. It is begining to appear that Obama's strong point was the youth and female vote. An area where the GOP has failed miserably.

Another problem for the GOP/RNC is that they are, frankly, too wishy washy and weak kneed. Yes I said it. Boehner needs to go. They let many of their so called rising stars set out to dry by not supporting them financially during this recent election cycle. Michele Bachmann got no support from the RNC, and just barely squeeked out a win. Why? For what ever bizarre reason Beohner has targeted Conservatives within the party. He is far too moderate - so too with the GOP and RNC.

I have also predicted several times over that if the GOP/RNC doesn't grow a pair and embrace a clear cut and well constructed Conservative arguement, they are doomed to the annals of history. Perhaps even in less than 10-15 years. They must construct a comprehensive and clear message of why Conservatism is the better course. Why our traditional Conservative values helped to build what was once the greatest country on Earth. It's shine is fading and the tarnish is spreading.

Steelie

St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#6
Nov 8, 2012
 

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Steelie wrote:
Good Day,
With all due respect I do not completely agree with this assesment (no suprise). The picture is still developing in terms of how the vote went down. Romeny won in every so called "bible belt" state which would indicate he actually got the Evengelical vote despite pundits arguing they would not due to his religious beliefs. When we look at the state counts, Romney won 24 States which is considered pretty close in some circles.
The problem is that the GOP has a branding issue. Obama, Alelrod, Wasserman-Shultz did an excellent job of getting their message out and demonizing Republicans. It is one of the things they do best. It is begining to appear that Obama's strong point was the youth and female vote. An area where the GOP has failed miserably.
Another problem for the GOP/RNC is that they are, frankly, too wishy washy and weak kneed. Yes I said it. Boehner needs to go. They let many of their so called rising stars set out to dry by not supporting them financially during this recent election cycle. Michele Bachmann got no support from the RNC, and just barely squeeked out a win. Why? For what ever bizarre reason Beohner has targeted Conservatives within the party. He is far too moderate - so too with the GOP and RNC.
I have also predicted several times over that if the GOP/RNC doesn't grow a pair and embrace a clear cut and well constructed Conservative arguement, they are doomed to the annals of history. Perhaps even in less than 10-15 years. They must construct a comprehensive and clear message of why Conservatism is the better course. Why our traditional Conservative values helped to build what was once the greatest country on Earth. It's shine is fading and the tarnish is spreading.
Steelie
Two states approved gay marriage, granted those two states are not considered to be evagelical strongholds. But on top of that two outspoken anti-abortion candidates lost in two very republican states, Missouri and Indiana.

Romney did win every Bible belt state and the GOP will continue to do so, the problem is those states alone will not win you presidential elections. To do that you need to win states like Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio. The Latino vote went big for Obama and they are only going to increase in population. Treating them like second class citizens will no longer work because the evangelical's vote will no longer cancel their votes out.

It's not conservatism thats killing the GOP right now, it's people like Richard Mourdock in Indiana and Todd Aiken in Missouri.
Really

Holland, MI

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#7
Nov 8, 2012
 

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And here we have the prime example of why people so dislike the left. There was not one candidate that was running or has run in the last 20 years on either side that has run on changing this country religiously. There is an element on the left, and Steve is a prime example, that cannot survive without hating on those who hold to their faith. He has to ridicule and lie about a so-called agenda.

The true sad part of this is it only reveals what has really been lacking in this country for the last 40 years and that is education. Education in the basic principals of this country and in the Constitution and how the laws are developed in this country. Good grief, there was one poster on here this election season who had ZERO clue how the Constitution is changed!

Steve and Ginger, it's real easy for you to ridicule and name call, but it's apparently really hard for either of you to be adults and admit that no one wants to turn this country into a theocracy. In fact, that is what our ancestors left and why they left. Apparently, neither of you understands why this country was founded and since you don't understand, you think you and only you should have a say in how it's run.

Everyone has freedom of speech and the right to express their opinions. However, there is no guarantee that the people you are expressing those opinions to will have to either listen to you OR agree with you. It's about respect and you have none for anyone.

Steve, this thread that you started has shown how little respect you have for anyone. Shame on you.

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#8
Nov 8, 2012
 

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Good Day,

Fair points St. Stephen. I will agree that Akin and Murdoch shot themselve's in the foot, no arguement there.
It also appears that the GOP/RNC did not excite the base. It is being reported that as many as 3 million Republicans sat out this election. Had they not, we might have had a very different result. Why is that? Perhaps two reasons. They (RNC/Romney) for what ever reason avoided their so called "rising" stars at the convention. Bachmann, Cain, Palin... Imagine for a moment if they were more engaged (invited) into the process? Palin, like her or not, is still able to garner huge crowds when she speaks. While the so called left leaning media would have excoriated her at every chance (a simple fact I think we can agree on) the reaction from that missing three million might have been very different.
Two - While Romney and Ryan may be "nice guys", sometimes you have to go for the jugular to show people you are not afraid of competition or your opponent or bully tactics. Romney had a few good replies in the debates, but was it enough?(Apparently not.) He and Ryan were demogoged left and right with I think a fairly tepid response. I think Ryan should have been sent out as a bit more of a pit bull. They did not sufficiently defend themselves against attacks from the Obama campaign regarding women for example. Conservatives (generally) are not against women's rights. Heck, Obama's own administration pays its female staff less than males. So too with Pelosi! If Romeny had been elected, there is precious little he could have done in terms of illegalizing abortion. It is a State to State issue IMHO, just like you mentioned gay marriage.

Hispanic vote - I do not think true Conservatives think of them as second class citizens, but rather the Democrats.(Not to be arguementative.) My point being as follows: Most so called Hispanics (a term coined by Nixon under nefarious intentions) are very religious Catholics. They are, generally, a hard working people. I mean if you are willing to risk your life to (although perhaps illegally) enter this country to even earn what we consider a minimum wage (or less), how can the RNC not engage and therefore recruit that vote? Ammnesty may not be the answer. Nor so called "equal opprotunity" programs. But rather to embrace the concept(s) of what made America great? Why not establish a a "friendly" immigration process that helps them to assimilate into the society?

A thought (inspired by Mark Levin). Why not encourage more immigration to the US? Why not, as we have in the past, encourage the best and the brightest from around the world to either emmigrate to or at least gain a Green Card to live and thrive in this country? Our immigration policies are backwards right now. Many other countries will not even consider you unless you have at least a college degree or a masters or doctorate (just to work there)! Why are we not encouraging more of this? It is not to say we should completely eliminate the ability of those with less of an education from coming to the US and becoming a citizen. Of course not! If we look at some of the individuals who became some of the wealthiest of the wealthy came here with only modest means to begin with.(Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Obici) They were able to profit and succeed within a system that allowed them to do so. Not one that simply gives them a check from the government. Our Conservative roots need to be reincarnated - much like the Poenix from the flames.

Lastly - Rove was a disaster...

Steelie
St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#9
Nov 9, 2012
 

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Steelie wrote:
Good Day,
Fair points St. Stephen. I will agree that Akin and Murdoch shot themselve's in the foot, no arguement there.
It also appears that the GOP/RNC did not excite the base. It is being reported that as many as 3 million Republicans sat out this election. Had they not, we might have had a very different result. Why is that? Perhaps two reasons. They (RNC/Romney) for what ever reason avoided their so called "rising" stars at the convention. Bachmann, Cain, Palin... Imagine for a moment if they were more engaged (invited) into the process? Palin, like her or not, is still able to garner huge crowds when she speaks. While the so called left leaning media would have excoriated her at every chance (a simple fact I think we can agree on) the reaction from that missing three million might have been very different.
Two - While Romney and Ryan may be "nice guys", sometimes you have to go for the jugular to show people you are not afraid of competition or your opponent or bully tactics. Romney had a few good replies in the debates, but was it enough?(Apparently not.) He and Ryan were demogoged left and right with I think a fairly tepid response. I think Ryan should have been sent out as a bit more of a pit bull. They did not sufficiently defend themselves against attacks from the Obama campaign regarding women for example. Conservatives (generally) are not against women's rights. Heck, Obama's own administration pays its female staff less than males. So too with Pelosi! If Romeny had been elected, there is precious little he could have done in terms of illegalizing abortion. It is a State to State issue IMHO, just like you mentioned gay marriage.
Hispanic vote - I do not think true Conservatives think of them as second class citizens, but rather the Democrats.(Not to be arguementative.) My point being as follows: Most so called Hispanics (a term coined by Nixon under nefarious intentions) are very religious Catholics. They are, generally, a hard working A thought (inspired by Mark Levin). Why not encourage more immigration to the US? Why not, as we have in the past, encourage the best and the brightest from around the world to either emmigrate to or at least gain a Green Card to live and thrive in this country? Our immigration policies are backwards right now. Many other countries will not even consider you unless you have at least a college degree or a masters or doctorate (just to work there)! Why are we not encouraging more of this? It is not to say we should completely eliminate the ability of those with less of an education from coming to the US and becoming a citizen. Of course not! If we look at some of the individuals who became some of the wealthiest of the wealthy came here with only modest means to begin with.(Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Obici) They were able to profit and succeed within a system that allowed them to do so. Not one that simply gives them a check from the government. Our Conservative roots need to be reincarnated - much like the Poenix from the flames.
Lastly - Rove was a disaster...
Steelie
Bachmann and Palin are the last thing the GOP needs. They serve no purpose, especially Palin, she has no job, Facebooks like a 17 year old and has become a cartoon character. All those two do is fire up the evangelical base. The GOP already has the evangelicals. By using those two they scare off moderates, independants, Latinos and young people. If you think that those two are the rising stars and the future of the GOP you couldn't be more wrong, they are a death sentence if they continue down that path.
St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#10
Nov 9, 2012
 

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Steelie wrote:
Good Day,
Two - While Romney and Ryan may be "nice guys", sometimes you have to go for the jugular to show people you are not afraid of competition or your opponent or bully tactics. Romney had a few good replies in the debates, but was it enough?(Apparently not.) He and Ryan were demogoged left and right with I think a fairly tepid response. I think Ryan should have been sent out as a bit more of a pit bull. They did not sufficiently defend themselves against attacks from the Obama campaign regarding women for example. Conservatives (generally) are not against women's rights. Heck, Obama's own administration pays its female staff less than males. So too with Pelosi! If Romeny had been elected, there is precious little he could have done in terms of illegalizing abortion. It is a State to State issue IMHO, just like you mentioned gay marriage.
Hispanic vote - I do not think true Conservatives think of them as second class citizens, but rather the Democrats.(Not to be arguementative.) My point being as follows: Most so called Hispanics (a term coined by Nixon under nefarious intentions) are very religious Catholics. They are, generally, a hard working people. I mean if you are willing to risk your life to (although perhaps illegally) enter this country to even earn what we consider a minimum wage (or less), how can the RNC not engage and therefore recruit that vote? Ammnesty may not be the answer. Nor so called "equal opprotunity" programs. But rather to embrace the concept(s) of what made America great? Why not establish a a "friendly" immigration process that helps them to assimilate into the society?
A thought (inspired by Mark Levin). Why not encourage more immigration to the US? Why not, as we have in the past, encourage the best and the brightest from around the world to either emmigrate to or at least gain a Green Card to live and thrive in this country? Our immigration policies are backwards right now. Many other countries will not even consider you unless you have at least a college degree or a masters or doctorate (just to work there)! Why are we not encouraging more of this? It is not to say we should completely eliminate the ability of those with less of an education from coming to the US and becoming a citizen. Of course not! If we look at some of the individuals who became some of the wealthiest of the wealthy came here with only modest means to begin with.(Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Obici) They were able to profit and succeed within a system that allowed them to do so. Not one that simply gives them a check from the government. Our Conservative roots need to be reincarnated - much like the Poenix from the flames.
Lastly - Rove was a disaster...
Steelie
As far as immigration goes, both parties need to address the situation. Though I agree with your feelings they are not consistant with the GOP's. Unfortunately the GOP has sided with the anti-immigration mindset. They have given up on the Latino vote in favor of the older white vote (those who tend to be most against immigration). It may have worked 40 years ago but this country is becoming much more diversified.

I don't know what the answers are and how to solve this issue but I know pulling people over in Arizona just to verify their status is the wrong way to go. Rick Perry would have done better with the Latino vote than Romney did because Rick Perry understands the gravity of the situation...the same goes with Jeb Bush. There are people inside the GOP that 'get it' but as a whole it still embraces an anti-immigrant, insular mindset.

Mexico and other Latin countries are the 800lb gorilla in the corner. They aren't going anywhere. Immigration from these countries is going to happen, legally or illegally. It has to be addressed in a rational, thoughtful manner.
Mark

Rockford, MI

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#11
Nov 9, 2012
 

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If immigration policies don't change you will turn from an electorate where evangelical are irrelevant to one where Catholics are very relevant.... Pick your poison secular progressive....
Mark

Rockford, MI

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Nov 9, 2012
 

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https://www.numbersusa.org/#2

Thoughts on any of these videos?
St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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#13
Nov 9, 2012
 

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Mark wrote:
If immigration policies don't change you will turn from an electorate where evangelical are irrelevant to one where Catholics are very relevant.... Pick your poison secular progressive....
Catholics are already relevant. Obama won them by 2 points overall and the Hispanic Catholic vote by 54 points.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

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#14
Nov 9, 2012
 

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St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
Catholics are already relevant. Obama won them by 2 points overall and the Hispanic Catholic vote by 54 points.
The Catholic bishops are shooting themselves in the foot in more ways than one...from the article below...
In a letter he ordered read at all parishes last Sunday, Bishop Daniel Jenky of Peoria juxtaposed the Obama administration's new contraception mandate with the scourging and mockery of Jesus. Jenky declared that “electoral supporters” of pro-abortion rights politicians reject “Jesus as their lord,” as did the crowd that roared, "We have no king but Caesar.”

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/08/my-t...
St Stephen

Grand Rapids, MI

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Nov 9, 2012
 

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Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
The Catholic bishops are shooting themselves in the foot in more ways than one...from the article below...
In a letter he ordered read at all parishes last Sunday, Bishop Daniel Jenky of Peoria juxtaposed the Obama administration's new contraception mandate with the scourging and mockery of Jesus. Jenky declared that “electoral supporters” of pro-abortion rights politicians reject “Jesus as their lord,” as did the crowd that roared, "We have no king but Caesar.”
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/08/my-t...
Catholics aren't like evangelicals, they tend to think for themselves.

Maybe the Catholic leaders should quit worrying about the children who won't be born and start worrying about the children who are already here and protect them from the little rape club they have allowed to take place.

On a side note I went to a Catholic high school and have kept in touch with one of my teachers over the years who is a nun. She is a huge democrat and Obama supporter. She believes helping the poor and ensuring that everyone has medical insurance trumps the abortion debate. She asked how many republican presidents have we had since Roe V Wade and asked how many of them have overturned it.
John

Grand Rapids, MI

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#16
Nov 9, 2012
 

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Ginger wrote:
<quoted text>
And they just plain stink!
By the way, anybody know what happened to Dingo?
Did he take his ball and run away again?
I hope the dear boy's alright and that his head didn't explode or something from all the anger.
We do still love him.
You love anybody with a five dollar bill.
John

Grand Rapids, MI

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#17
Nov 9, 2012
 

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St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
Catholics aren't like evangelicals, they tend to think for themselves.
Maybe the Catholic leaders should quit worrying about the children who won't be born and start worrying about the children who are already here and protect them from the little rape club they have allowed to take place.
On a side note I went to a Catholic high school and have kept in touch with one of my teachers over the years who is a nun. She is a huge democrat and Obama supporter. She believes helping the poor and ensuring that everyone has medical insurance trumps the abortion debate. She asked how many republican presidents have we had since Roe V Wade and asked how many of them have overturned it.
She must be very proud of you Steve.
Really

Holland, MI

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#18
Nov 9, 2012
 

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St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
Catholics aren't like evangelicals, they tend to think for themselves.
Maybe the Catholic leaders should quit worrying about the children who won't be born and start worrying about the children who are already here and protect them from the little rape club they have allowed to take place.
On a side note I went to a Catholic high school and have kept in touch with one of my teachers over the years who is a nun. She is a huge democrat and Obama supporter. She believes helping the poor and ensuring that everyone has medical insurance trumps the abortion debate. She asked how many republican presidents have we had since Roe V Wade and asked how many of them have overturned it.
Then perhaps your former teacher should go get current on her education? Since no PRESIDENT can overturn Roe V Wade. It has to be done with a law. I'm surprised you didn't call her stupid for not knowing that. Oh wait, she agrees with you so that's why she's not stupid. She must be really proud of how foul mouthed and bigoted you have become.

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#19
Nov 9, 2012
 

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St Stephen wrote:
<quoted text>
As far as immigration goes, both parties need to address the situation. Though I agree with your feelings they are not consistant with the GOP's. Unfortunately the GOP has sided with the anti-immigration mindset. They have given up on the Latino vote in favor of the older white vote (those who tend to be most against immigration). It may have worked 40 years ago but this country is becoming much more diversified.
I don't know what the answers are and how to solve this issue but I know pulling people over in Arizona just to verify their status is the wrong way to go. Rick Perry would have done better with the Latino vote than Romney did because Rick Perry understands the gravity of the situation...the same goes with Jeb Bush. There are people inside the GOP that 'get it' but as a whole it still embraces an anti-immigrant, insular mindset.
Mexico and other Latin countries are the 800lb gorilla in the corner. They aren't going anywhere. Immigration from these countries is going to happen, legally or illegally. It has to be addressed in a rational, thoughtful manner.
Good Day,

You know... I think it is funny when we demonize our immigration policies (punishment) when compared to Mexico for example. They are brutal by comparison.

And let us be clear, the US is a nation of immigrants. Even so called "native" Americans came from someplace else thousands of years ago.(That might get me in trouble...) We are known as the melting pot for a reason. There are precious few other nations that have/possess the diversity we enjoy.(And I chose the term "enjoy" very forcibly.) Traditionally these immigrants wanted to be AMERICAN. They wanted to assimilate and become something better than from whence they came. And some even endured barbaric and misguided bigotry. They gave us the wonder and beauty of what I would call the original multi-cultural State in modern times.(Of course we can look at the Romans, Greeks, Brits, etc.) But this society is one where people chose to come here upon their own volition (the horror of slavery of course excluded) in order to have a better life. But where are we now?

No suprise but I am not against the so called "Arizona law". Why should we not be able to discern whether and individual is here legally or illegally?

Depending upon how it is constructed, I might be able to support a program or policy for a so called path to citizenship. Granted, many of our ancestors simply came over on a boat - but they did have to go through (perhaps primative by today's standards) a process to emmigrate. I could possibly support what might be considered a "low skills" work permit process - similar to H-1B, but for those individuals who may not have an advanced education (or any education). Some may not want to become citizens, but just to work here. That's fine.(Heck, a lot of these so called immigrants are barely literate in their Mother toungue.) It should perhaps be a multi year process. Maybe five years to prove you can follow the rules. During that five years they should attend citizenship classes. They should also be proven to be at least mildly proficient in reading, writing, and speaking English.

Steelie

St Stephen

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#20
Nov 10, 2012
 

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Steelie wrote:
<quoted text>
No suprise but I am not against the so called "Arizona law".
Well you better hope your party doesn't continue to embrace that type of ideology or they may never win another presidential race in our lifetime.

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