The Bible

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Thor

Rockford, MI

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#144
Mar 14, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
If gay people aren't asking for extra rights then why haven't they put as much effort into passing civil union laws? If the only issues were truly about hospital visits, estates, etc. all of those could have been satisfied 20+ years ago simply by ammending the civil union laws.
Civil union laws could have been made equal to state marriage laws decades ago. Obviously it goes beyond legal equality.
Separate-but-equal is not equal.
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>Oh, and "religious sacrament" doesn't equal Christianity. People were married and blessed by Hera before Christ, but it was still a religious ceremony.
Marriage existed before the greek religion/mythology.

Try again.
Really

Grand Rapids, MI

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#145
Mar 14, 2013
 
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you saying hitler said never to believe what he said?? Are you nuts? You've never read mien kampf...and your comment proves it. He was most certainly a christian.
You are a typical christian...those with whom you disagree, even though they profess to be christian, are all Atheists even though you can not, as in this case, provide one quote from hitler that he was an Atheist. That's why there are so many divisions amoungst the christian church...and you are a contributer.
With regards to genisis, if all you can do is answer a question with a question, I readily acknowledge your concession that my implications are correct...your god-being is the worst mass murderer of all time.
Hitler was actually a Jew and hated his Jewish father. Hitler may have said he was a Christian, but again, if one is to blame the Christians for what Hitler did, then explain his putting to death Christians, Catholics, Jews, homosexuals, mentally handicapped, etc. It's just "convenient" to think he was a Christian because then no one has to admit that he was just a psychotic bastard who hated anyone who didn't agree with what he said.
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

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#146
Mar 14, 2013
 

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Really wrote:
<quoted text>Hitler was actually a Jew and hated his Jewish father. Hitler may have said he was a Christian, but again, if one is to blame the Christians for what Hitler did, then explain his putting to death Christians, Catholics, Jews, homosexuals, mentally handicapped, etc. It's just "convenient" to think he was a Christian because then no one has to admit that he was just a psychotic bastard who hated anyone who didn't agree with what he said.
Sources and citations please. Credible ones, not ones you've made up or made yourself believe.

Since: Mar 09

Grandville, MI

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#147
Mar 14, 2013
 
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
Sources and citations please. Credible ones, not ones you've made up or made yourself believe.
LOL!!!!
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

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#148
Mar 14, 2013
 

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Gville Jim wrote:
<quoted text>LOL!!!!
What's so funny JimBob?

Really has a difficult time supporting statements made.

I'm trying to make this discussion more fact and reality based.

Provide citations, sources and references or take the bull shit somewhere else.

Since: Mar 09

Grandville, MI

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#149
Mar 14, 2013
 
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
Sources and citations please. Credible ones, not ones you've made up or made yourself believe.
Where are yours?
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

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#150
Mar 14, 2013
 
I didn't declare that Hitler is Jewish born of Jewish parents. I didn't say either that Hitler may have declared he was Christian. Really did. I'm simply asking Really provide sources and citations for such a claim.

Since: Mar 09

Grandville, MI

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#151
Mar 14, 2013
 
pipedream wrote:
I didn't declare that Hitler is Jewish born of Jewish parents. I didn't say either that Hitler may have declared he was Christian. Really did. I'm simply asking Really provide sources and citations for such a claim.
Then, provide some proof that they are wrong.
Thank you in advance, I look forward to it.
pipedream

Grand Blanc, MI

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#152
Mar 14, 2013
 

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Gville Jim wrote:
<quoted text>Then, provide some proof that they are wrong.
Thank you in advance, I look forward to it.
It doesn't work like that here on Topix JimBob. You, a man of 10,000 + posts, of all people should know that.
vox veritatis

Grand Rapids, MI

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#153
Mar 14, 2013
 

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Really wrote:
he was just a psychotic bastard who hated anyone who didn't agree with what he said.
Sounds like a lot of progressives.
Actually, genome studies have suggested Hitler had both Jewish and African genes in his pool.
http://www.history.com/news/study-suggests-ad...

Since: Mar 09

Grandville, MI

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#155
Mar 14, 2013
 

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pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
It doesn't work like that here on Topix JimBob. You, a man of 10,000 + posts, of all people should know that.
Why doesnt it work that way?
And as far as number of post's goes, I wonder how many you might have if you were not an unregistered troll?
Please explain to us exactly "how it works on topix"
You are the one disputing someone elses claim. Why dont you provide some facts to back up your comment, saying that they are wrong?
Your opinions are not facts.
Have a nice day!

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#156
Mar 15, 2013
 
Thor wrote:
<quoted text>
Separate-but-equal is not equal.
<quoted text>
Marriage existed before the greek religion/mythology.
Try again.
Civil unions are not seperate but equal. As a point of fact they could be more "equal" than marriage if the law made it that way. That is the point; that from a legal rights perspective, civil unions can be made exactly the same as the legal rights in a marriage. A hetrosexual couple could also use them if they weren't religious and did not want to get "married."

Co-habitation existed long before marriage but marriage involves a legal and/or religious agreement, and religion existed long before governments. By definition, living together isn't marriage. You are confusing the two.

Try again.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#157
Mar 15, 2013
 
pipedream wrote:
<quoted text>
Sources and citations please. Credible ones, not ones you've made up or made yourself believe.
He most likely was not, but this does a decent job of explaining where the idea came from.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/H...
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#158
Mar 15, 2013
 
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
Civil unions are not seperate but equal. As a point of fact they could be more "equal" than marriage if the law made it that way. That is the point; that from a legal rights perspective, civil unions can be made exactly the same as the legal rights in a marriage. A hetrosexual couple could also use them if they weren't religious and did not want to get "married."
Co-habitation existed long before marriage but marriage involves a legal and/or religious agreement, and religion existed long before governments. By definition, living together isn't marriage. You are confusing the two.
Try again.
Being that all that is true? why the irritation with gay marriages? From a religious standpoint? There is NO Biblical requirement for a man and woman to marry. ALL references to marriage in the Bible relates to Jewish law. NOT Biblical "law". You may want to check out what constitutes a "Biblical marriage".

A "Biblical" marriage is not recognized by the state for legal rights purposes. Only marriages under state laws are. Even ministers, priests, pastors, etc. have to be licensed by the state for marriages to be considered legal. There is such a thing as legal marital rights.

And don't even bother getting into common law marriages. More than one legal battle has ensued for rights in common law marriages.

Legal marriage is all about rights of ownership of the other person and their possessions. If you don't think so then explain the responsibilities of who owns the body of a person who dies.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#159
Mar 15, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Being that all that is true? why the irritation with gay marriages? From a religious standpoint? There is NO Biblical requirement for a man and woman to marry. ALL references to marriage in the Bible relates to Jewish law. NOT Biblical "law". You may want to check out what constitutes a "Biblical marriage".
A "Biblical" marriage is not recognized by the state for legal rights purposes. Only marriages under state laws are. Even ministers, priests, pastors, etc. have to be licensed by the state for marriages to be considered legal. There is such a thing as legal marital rights.
And don't even bother getting into common law marriages. More than one legal battle has ensued for rights in common law marriages.
Legal marriage is all about rights of ownership of the other person and their possessions. If you don't think so then explain the responsibilities of who owns the body of a person who dies.
I was about to go down the rabbit trail you guided me towards but I decided to resist.

Regarding what “Biblical Marriage” is, here are two sources you may want to check out. Not that you will agree but it is easier than copying the whole thing. There are millions of sources that give decent definitions, these just happened to be two that I picked.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/e...
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/...

To address your question directly, it’s pretty simple. From a religious viewpoint, homosexuality is morally wrong, just as say bestiality is wrong. The goal of the homosexual community has nothing to do with “equal rights under the law.” It is to gain moral acceptance of a behavior. And at that point the door has been opened wide. If it is ok for Jim and Jack to marry, why not Jim, Sue and Ann? Why not Miss. Sally and Puffy her Persian cat? Why not Frank and his 8 year old niece?

Logically you can’t open marriage to one group and not others. So marriage is either only between a man and woman or it is open to any and all constructs. There is no middle ground.

As I said, if it was truly just about equal rights, this would have ended 20+ years ago with adjustments to the civil union laws. All those things you mentioned and more ("Legal marriage is all about rights of ownership of the other person and their possessions. If you don't think so then explain the responsibilities of who owns the body of a person who dies")are all easily settled under civil law.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#160
Mar 15, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
I was about to go down the rabbit trail you guided me towards but I decided to resist.
Regarding what “Biblical Marriage” is, here are two sources you may want to check out. Not that you will agree but it is easier than copying the whole thing. There are millions of sources that give decent definitions, these just happened to be two that I picked.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/e...
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/...
To address your question directly, it’s pretty simple. From a religious viewpoint, homosexuality is morally wrong, just as say bestiality is wrong. The goal of the homosexual community has nothing to do with “equal rights under the law.” It is to gain moral acceptance of a behavior. And at that point the door has been opened wide. If it is ok for Jim and Jack to marry, why not Jim, Sue and Ann? Why not Miss. Sally and Puffy her Persian cat? Why not Frank and his 8 year old niece?
Logically you can’t open marriage to one group and not others. So marriage is either only between a man and woman or it is open to any and all constructs. There is no middle ground.
As I said, if it was truly just about equal rights, this would have ended 20+ years ago with adjustments to the civil union laws. All those things you mentioned and more ("Legal marriage is all about rights of ownership of the other person and their possessions. If you don't think so then explain the responsibilities of who owns the body of a person who dies")are all easily settled under civil law.
I'm not disagreeing with any of it per-say. Still it doesn't negate what I've said about marriage not being a Biblical law. Spiritually the tenants of marriage are best honored. But as the Christian Marriage site points out even "Christian marriages" have a 41-43% chance of ending in divorce. Though it doesn't specifically state Christian marriages. And that stat is lower than the actual divorce rate. Wouldn't it be a sin for a Christian marriage to end in divorce. The Bible says it is.

There is a study out that says 50% of the 50+% of marriages ending in divorce are filed by women. Out of that number less than 1/3 are for reasons of infidelity, abuse of any kind etc. The primary reason(s) are listed as 'he doesn't fulfill her needs'.

In the case of "morality" as long as they are not causing any actual harm to anyone else wouldn't the "sin" of gay marriage be on their souls? And there also are more than one study out that says on the majority gay tendencies are not by choice. And to say it sets an example that homosexuality will cause otherwise heterosexual people to sin is nonsense.

As long as they aren't causing direct harm to anyone else I see no spiritual rationale for dictating they follow the moral standards of someone else. Especially those who believe in the freedom of choices shouldn't be obstructed by anyone else.

Oh, and after many years of intense line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, precept upon precept Bible study I would need to be clarified by more than just opinions.
free thinker

Southfield, MI

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#161
Mar 15, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
Legal marriage is all about rights of ownership of the other person and their possessions. If you don't think so then explain the responsibilities of who owns the body of a person who dies.
It's about way more than that.
http://www.vtmarriage.org/resources/fwi_polic...
free thinker

Southfield, MI

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#162
Mar 15, 2013
 
This would be next:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive//ldn...
Gays and lesbians won't be satisfied until they have forced churches and religious institutions to sanction their relationships and perform weddings or civil ceremonies. It's already happening elsewhere.
This isn't about 'equal rights' and if you believe that you are beyond naive. It's about forcing their beliefs on the church.
On a side note, I can't wait to see them try this with their local mosque.
Thor

Rockford, MI

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#163
Mar 15, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
The goal of the homosexual community has nothing to do with “equal rights under the law.” It is to gain moral acceptance of a behavior. And at that point the door has been opened wide. If it is ok for Jim and Jack to marry, why not Jim, Sue and Ann? Why not Miss. Sally and Puffy her Persian cat? Why not Frank and his 8 year old niece?
Logically you can’t open marriage to one group and not others. So marriage is either only between a man and woman or it is open to any and all constructs. There is no middle ground.
Why is it that the religious zealots cannot understand the concept of consent?

Animals cannot consent to marriage.
Children are not mature enough to consent to marriage.

It doesn't hurt anyone for two gay consenting adults to get married.
It would be a lot more honest for the religious fundies to just admit they don't want gay marriage simply because of their religious indoctrination, and not because of any logical reason.
Thor

Rockford, MI

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#164
Mar 15, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
Civil unions are not seperate but equal. As a point of fact they could be more "equal" than marriage if the law made it that way. That is the point; that from a legal rights perspective, civil unions can be made exactly the same as the legal rights in a marriage. A hetrosexual couple could also use them if they weren't religious and did not want to get "married."
Co-habitation existed long before marriage but marriage involves a legal and/or religious agreement, and religion existed long before governments. By definition, living together isn't marriage. You are confusing the two.
Try again.
In the United States, a secular country, marriage is recognized as a legal construct, not a religious construct. Religious doctrine has no standing in our secular law.
Man created marriage thousands of years before man created the Abrahamic religions.

Civil unions are not the same as marriage. If they were the same they would not have two different names.

This isn't any different than the separate drinking fountains for whites and coloreds.

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