“Peace Love”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#123 Mar 13, 2013
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
According to your link WW2 was a religious war, along with the Russian pogroms of 1905-06 and 1917-22 among others. Sorry, the information posted on Google answers isn't even close. Events like the pogroms and the holocaust weren't religions fighting but acts under atheism.
According to real historians, the Crusades, the Inquisition and with witch hunts killed approximately 200,000 people. And that's over a five hundred year period. Just looking at three of the greatest atheistic killers, Stalin, Mao and Hitler, there were 25 million + under Stalin, 12 million + under Hitler and about 70 million under Mao. That's over 100 million over a 45 year period. Add in others like Lenin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, Hoxha, Ceausescu, Kim Jong-il we add additional millions to the list.
Compare that to the religious events that some like to bring out. The Inquisition killed about 2,000 people over a period of 150 years. The witch killings? Contemporary historical sources put that figure at about 100,000 and again over more than 100 years. Crusades? Again, casualties on both sides totaled under 40,000. And that was over a period of almost 200 years.
The worst religious event killed about 1,000 people per year. Atheism killed 6,000 people per day.
It isn't even close.
A quote from Mein Kampf...and there are more...
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

You are familiar with the author I hope??
Simpleton

Jenison, MI

#124 Mar 13, 2013
To think that this thread was started with a simple observation that a recent History Channel presentation of "The Bible" was well received and followed by the comment to read the book if you liked the movie!
It has been followed by a non stop demeaning of the Bible and Christianity.

Had pornography been aired instead, it would probably have been less controversial.
SeenItBefore

Three Rivers, MI

#125 Mar 13, 2013
Simpleton wrote:
To think that this thread was started with a simple observation that a recent History Channel presentation of "The Bible" was well received and followed by the comment to read the book if you liked the movie!
It has been followed by a non stop demeaning of the Bible and Christianity.
Had pornography been aired instead, it would probably have been less controversial.
It always follows that when messing with, or even thought to be messing with, people's belief systems there are going to be heated arguments. That's why religion and politics are considered taboo subjects for conversation. Though those are the two subjects that most affect our lives.

The worse part of "discussions" like religion and politics are people's reluctance to examine what may be flaws, for lack of a better term, in their own belief system(s) and automatically turn to felling insulted when countered.

I disagree with had it been pornography it would have been less controversial. For whatever reason people have there is a lot of sex-phobia going around. And pretty much always has been.
Thor

Rockford, MI

#126 Mar 13, 2013
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
According to your link WW2 was a religious war, along with the Russian pogroms of 1905-06 and 1917-22 among others. Sorry, the information posted on Google answers isn't even close. Events like the pogroms and the holocaust weren't religions fighting but acts under atheism.
According to real historians, the Crusades, the Inquisition and with witch hunts killed approximately 200,000 people. And that's over a five hundred year period. Just looking at three of the greatest atheistic killers, Stalin, Mao and Hitler, there were 25 million + under Stalin, 12 million + under Hitler and about 70 million under Mao. That's over 100 million over a 45 year period. Add in others like Lenin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Pol Pot, Hoxha, Ceausescu, Kim Jong-il we add additional millions to the list.
Compare that to the religious events that some like to bring out. The Inquisition killed about 2,000 people over a period of 150 years. The witch killings? Contemporary historical sources put that figure at about 100,000 and again over more than 100 years. Crusades? Again, casualties on both sides totaled under 40,000. And that was over a period of almost 200 years.
The worst religious event killed about 1,000 people per year. Atheism killed 6,000 people per day.
It isn't even close.
More christian revisionism and outright fabrications with no sources.

Even if you count famine, Stalin killed far less than 25 million. The number is closer to 7 million.

Mao was not even responsible for the famine in China, it was due to natural disaster, so that number is completely bogus.

HitIer's count goes on christianity's tab.
During WW2, 6 million JEWS were slaughtered over what???? That's right, they were slaughtered over religion. Who did the slaughtering? Christians did.
The n a z i movement was co-opted with christianity, as shown by many n a z i symbols also containing christian symbols.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm
The n a z i s were composed of 94% christians, a higher percentage than America was at that same time.
And, of course, HitIer himself confirmed his own christianity and christian motivation for the slaughter.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

The Crusades killed anywhere between 2-5 million alone.
The Massacre of Jerusalem was a real class, when christians forced the non-christian children into a synagogue and burned them alive while singing "Christ, we adore thee."

So, in reality, what we are looking at is about 7 or 8 million under atheism (Stalin's count plus some that were actually ordered kiIIed by Mao or others) compared to about 809 million (and growing every year) under religion.
Thor

Rockford, MI

#127 Mar 13, 2013
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
Care to post his "hate sermon"?:-)
Back in the mid-1990's he had a sermon where he urged Christians to fight the aggressive agenda of the gay rights movement and advocated the healing power of Jesus as the only way out of a homosexual lifestyle.
Why is it for the left that disagreement equals hate? Give me the specific words that Giglio used in his supposed "hate sermons."
Put up or shut up.
You can listen to it here. Enjoy:
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/01/09/1422...
You can listen to his hate speech and how you can pray away the gay by believing the mythical Jesus will somehow cure gayness.

More and more people have an openly gay family member or friend or co-worker. They are getting sick of these religious wackos preaching hate and fear against other Americans who are just trying to be happy.
That's why Louie got dumped from the inauguration.

“Where I came from”

Since: Jan 09

the universe

#128 Mar 13, 2013
Thor wrote:
<quoted text>
He's just another "christian pastor" getting rich by working the religion grift.
He was chosen to speak at Obama's most recent inauguration, but was dumped after his hate sermons against gay people gained too much negative attention.
Yep just another Benny Hin in jeans and an un-tucked shirt.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Portage, MI

#129 Mar 13, 2013
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
I know what you mean....
I will take that as a compliment.... Thanks......
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Portage, MI

#130 Mar 13, 2013
Thor wrote:
<quoted text>
You can listen to it here. Enjoy:
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/01/09/1422...
You can listen to his hate speech and how you can pray away the gay by believing the mythical Jesus will somehow cure gayness.
More and more people have an openly gay family member or friend or co-worker. They are getting sick of these religious wackos preaching hate and fear against other Americans who are just trying to be happy.
That's why Louie got dumped from the inauguration.
Really, I thought anti militant gay views was just speaking out against special treatment of a group because of what they do....... Extra constitutional rights is wrong...... Pull your weight like everyone else and get the contract from the State to share your things....... Marriage is a religious sacrament reserved for a man and woman but get the State license and when you split, suffer like the rest that split.....
Thor

Rockford, MI

#131 Mar 13, 2013
Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Really, I thought anti militant gay views was just speaking out against special treatment of a group because of what they do....... Extra constitutional rights is wrong...... Pull your weight like everyone else and get the contract from the State to share your things....... Marriage is a religious sacrament reserved for a man and woman but get the State license and when you split, suffer like the rest that split.....
The gay people aren't asking for extra rights, just equality.
It doesn't hurt me or you if they get married.

And you are completely wrong about marriage being a religious sacrament.
Man created the concept of marriage thousands of years before man created christianity.
This is also a secular country recognizing marriage as a secular issue, and your religion has no standing in secular law.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Portage, MI

#132 Mar 13, 2013
Thor wrote:
<quoted text>
The gay people aren't asking for extra rights, just equality.
It doesn't hurt me or you if they get married.
And you are completely wrong about marriage being a religious sacrament.
Man created the concept of marriage thousands of years before man created christianity.
This is also a secular country recognizing marriage as a secular issue, and your religion has no standing in secular law.
You do have a small mind and your stance is offensive to my sensibilities....... I want sensitivity to my view point..... like I have to view others...... Pin Head......

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

#133 Mar 14, 2013
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
A quote from Mein Kampf...and there are more...
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
You are familiar with the author I hope??
I’m familiar with the author and book. More importantly I’ve read it. In the same book he said that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bear no relation to the truth but are designed to sway the masses. Hitler is on record as having called Christianity one of the great “scourges” of history and said of the Germans,“Let’s be the only people immunized against this disease.” He promised that “through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity.” In fact he blamed the Jews for inventing Christianity. He also condemned Christianity for its opposition to evolution. Hitler reserved special scorn for the Christian values of equality and compassion, which he identified with weakness. His leading advisers – Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann – were atheists who also hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence in Germany.

Historian Richard Evans wrote “the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in.” Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power they launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken Christian churches in Germany. The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer for their blessings, not God.

While most people are aware of the six million Jews killed during the holocaust they often forget of the six to eight million Christians, political foes, cripples, homosexuals, etc. that were also killed in the camps. Atheism, not religion is responsible for the worst mass murders in history.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

#134 Mar 14, 2013
Thor wrote:
<quoted text>
More christian revisionism and outright fabrications with no sources.
Even if you count famine, Stalin killed far less than 25 million. The number is closer to 7 million.
Mao was not even responsible for the famine in China, it was due to natural disaster, so that number is completely bogus.
HitIer's count goes on christianity's tab.
During WW2, 6 million JEWS were slaughtered over what???? That's right, they were slaughtered over religion. Who did the slaughtering? Christians did.
The n a z i movement was co-opted with christianity, as shown by many n a z i symbols also containing christian symbols.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm
The n a z i s were composed of 94% christians, a higher percentage than America was at that same time.
And, of course, HitIer himself confirmed his own christianity and christian motivation for the slaughter.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
The Crusades killed anywhere between 2-5 million alone.
The Massacre of Jerusalem was a real class, when christians forced the non-christian children into a synagogue and burned them alive while singing "Christ, we adore thee."
So, in reality, what we are looking at is about 7 or 8 million under atheism (Stalin's count plus some that were actually ordered kiIIed by Mao or others) compared to about 809 million (and growing every year) under religion.
Sources? Sure.
&#9702;Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these: &#9632;Chistyakovoy, V.(Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
&#9632;Dyadkin, I.G.(Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
&#9632;Gold, John.: 50-60 million.

&#9702;Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
&#9702;Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago, &#9632;Intro to Perennial Classics Edition by Edward Ericson: Solzhenitsyn publicized an estimate of 60 million. Aleksandr Yakovlev estimates perhaps 35 million.
&#9632;Page 178: citing Kurganov, 66 million lives lost between 1917 and 1959

&#9702;Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into: &#9632;1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
&#9632;1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
&#9632;1939-45: 18,157,000
&#9632;1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
&#9632;TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine

&#9702;William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
&#9702;Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32)+ 7M (1934-38) &#9632;Cited by Wallechinsky: &#9632;Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
&#9632;Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.

&#9702;MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s

I covered Hitler and the Nazis in a previous post. But I'll be happy to supply more info if needed. OTOH, if Hitler was a Christian, explain his sending Christians to the camps as well as Jews. Also in 1492 King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella had issued an ordinance expelling Jews from Spain. The only way to stay was to convert. Many did, so simply by converting they were left alone. Are you seriously suggesting that the six million Jews could have walked out of the camps by simply converting to Christianity?

Of course, if Kim Jong Un drops a nuke like he says he is going to, he'll jump into the top 10 atheistic killers in a second.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

#135 Mar 14, 2013
Thor wrote:
<quoted text>
You can listen to it here. Enjoy:
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/01/09/1422...
You can listen to his hate speech and how you can pray away the gay by believing the mythical Jesus will somehow cure gayness.
More and more people have an openly gay family member or friend or co-worker. They are getting sick of these religious wackos preaching hate and fear against other Americans who are just trying to be happy.
That's why Louie got dumped from the inauguration.
And again, why does disagreement equal hate?

If someone said that the only way to eliminate alcoholism was to through prayer and the power of God, is that hate speech against alcoholics?

Regarding the number of atheists, it is less than 2% "However less than 2% of the U.S. population describes itself as atheist."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_...

The issue is that someone who says they are not religious doesn't mean they are an atheist. They just don't care and/or haven't thought about it.

“Peace Love”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#136 Mar 14, 2013
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
I’m familiar with the author and book. More importantly I’ve read it. In the same book he said that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bear no relation to the truth but are designed to sway the masses. Hitler is on record as having called Christianity one of the great “scourges” of history and said of the Germans,“Let’s be the only people immunized against this disease.” He promised that “through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity.” In fact he blamed the Jews for inventing Christianity. He also condemned Christianity for its opposition to evolution. Hitler reserved special scorn for the Christian values of equality and compassion, which he identified with weakness. His leading advisers – Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann – were atheists who also hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence in Germany.
Historian Richard Evans wrote “the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in.” Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power they launched a ruthless drive to subdue and weaken Christian churches in Germany. The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer for their blessings, not God.
While most people are aware of the six million Jews killed during the holocaust they often forget of the six to eight million Christians, political foes, cripples, homosexuals, etc. that were also killed in the camps. Atheism, not religion is responsible for the worst mass murders in history.
Nice try but I fail to believe that hitler was not a christian. He was raised in the church and has been quoted from his writings that he was a christian and believed in a god-being, maybe not the same one you believe in, that's common even today
I challenge you to find the quote from him that he declares himself an Atheist.
Another thought...
I wonder how many people existed on Earth when your god-being decided to drown all but 8 of them...which then set up the incestual interbreeding recovery of the Human race...and all animals for that matter.

“Peace Love”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#137 Mar 14, 2013
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
And again, why does disagreement equal hate?
If someone said that the only way to eliminate alcoholism was to through prayer and the power of God, is that hate speech against alcoholics?
Regarding the number of atheists, it is less than 2% "However less than 2% of the U.S. population describes itself as atheist."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_...
The issue is that someone who says they are not religious doesn't mean they are an atheist. They just don't care and/or haven't thought about it.
The Washington Post seems to disagree with your numbers...circa August 2012...your unreliable wiki site dated back to 2005.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-08-13...

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

#138 Mar 14, 2013
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice try but I fail to believe that hitler was not a christian. He was raised in the church and has been quoted from his writings that he was a christian and believed in a god-being, maybe not the same one you believe in, that's common even today
I challenge you to find the quote from him that he declares himself an Atheist.
Another thought...
I wonder how many people existed on Earth when your god-being decided to drown all but 8 of them...which then set up the incestual interbreeding recovery of the Human race...and all animals for that matter.
You can believe what you want, I'm not here to change your belief just as you aren't here to have a discussion.

As I pointed out, Hitler's statement that he was a Christian came from the same source where he said not to believe anything he said, that it was all propaganda to sway the masses and win in politics.

I'm curious. Since the story of Noah comes from the book of Genesis which is a Jewish book not a Christian book per se, have you gone on any Jewish sites and posted your questions, or is your bigotry limited to Christians?

“Peace Love”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#140 Mar 14, 2013
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
You can believe what you want, I'm not here to change your belief just as you aren't here to have a discussion.
As I pointed out, Hitler's statement that he was a Christian came from the same source where he said not to believe anything he said, that it was all propaganda to sway the masses and win in politics.
I'm curious. Since the story of Noah comes from the book of Genesis which is a Jewish book not a Christian book per se, have you gone on any Jewish sites and posted your questions, or is your bigotry limited to Christians?
Are you saying hitler said never to believe what he said?? Are you nuts? You've never read mien kampf...and your comment proves it. He was most certainly a christian.
You are a typical christian...those with whom you disagree, even though they profess to be christian, are all Atheists even though you can not, as in this case, provide one quote from hitler that he was an Atheist. That's why there are so many divisions amoungst the christian church...and you are a contributer.
With regards to genisis, if all you can do is answer a question with a question, I readily acknowledge your concession that my implications are correct...your god-being is the worst mass murderer of all time.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

#142 Mar 14, 2013
Thor wrote:
<quoted text>
The gay people aren't asking for extra rights, just equality.
It doesn't hurt me or you if they get married.
And you are completely wrong about marriage being a religious sacrament.
Man created the concept of marriage thousands of years before man created christianity.
This is also a secular country recognizing marriage as a secular issue, and your religion has no standing in secular law.
If gay people aren't asking for extra rights then why haven't they put as much effort into passing civil union laws? If the only issues were truly about hospital visits, estates, etc. all of those could have been satisfied 20+ years ago simply by ammending the civil union laws.

Civil union laws could have been made equal to state marriage laws decades ago. Obviously it goes beyond legal equality.

Oh, and "religious sacrament" doesn't equal Christianity. People were married and blessed by Hera before Christ, but it was still a religious ceremony.
Bill Grame

Jenison, MI

#143 Mar 14, 2013
Shoeless Eluder wrote:
<quoted text>Yep just another Benny Hin in jeans and an un-tucked shirt.
I did not realize that Benny Hill was a pastor though I can';t dispute the untucked shirt.
Thor

Rockford, MI

#144 Mar 14, 2013
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
If gay people aren't asking for extra rights then why haven't they put as much effort into passing civil union laws? If the only issues were truly about hospital visits, estates, etc. all of those could have been satisfied 20+ years ago simply by ammending the civil union laws.
Civil union laws could have been made equal to state marriage laws decades ago. Obviously it goes beyond legal equality.
Separate-but-equal is not equal.
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>Oh, and "religious sacrament" doesn't equal Christianity. People were married and blessed by Hera before Christ, but it was still a religious ceremony.
Marriage existed before the greek religion/mythology.

Try again.

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