The Bible

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“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

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#305
Mar 27, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually you have it backwards. Not arguing from a Christian POV here. Logically and philosophically it's been shown that if there is no God (however one defines that) and we are simply a natural collection of cells, etc. then there is no free will. Under naturalism you have no more choice in what you do than a rock has in rolling down hill or a dog does in going after a piece of meat.
If I feed my dog all day and then show him a meaty bone, he still goes after it. He has no choice. If I throw a rock in the air, it comes down. Kant went really deep with this because as he argued, when we argue that "can't" and "should" are real options, they can only be options if we have a choice. A rock doesn't have a choice to roll down hill nor does a dog have a choice to chase a bone. If man has a choice than there must be something greater than nature giving us that choice, otherwise what we perceive as choice is simply an illusion.
So, and this is was settled hundreds of years ago. If we have free will there is a God who allows us that choice. If there is no God then we truly have no free will and our belief is simply an illusion.
So. Do you have free-will or is it simply an illusion?
This has got to be amoung the top 5 worst analogies I've ever read or heard. I suppose it works on children and convicts and such but wow...just wow.
This would also be in line with your bouncing from one to another of the 38,000+ divisions/sects/cults of the christian religion...that is if you even recognize your former affiliations as christian.
With that in mind...which one should I go with? I was raised as CRC being taught that all others are wrong. So what's to prevent me from going back and telling you that you are wrong? I know some church of christ people that say they are the only right ones, or baptists, or jehovah witnesses, or...
You guys are funny and entertaining.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

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#306
Mar 27, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Your choice to decide then...... What is holding you back from child raping again.......
Your original reference to free will (and we all know it) was not in any regard to prior mention of child rape. Are you a priest? They seem to have a lot of that going around.
Face it...you didn't like the good point I made, had no response, and went on the "attack because I'm being persecuted" ...again.
Are you really that shallow?
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Owosso, MI

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#307
Mar 27, 2013
 

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Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
Your original reference to free will (and we all know it) was not in any regard to prior mention of child rape. Are you a priest? They seem to have a lot of that going around.
Face it...you didn't like the good point I made, had no response, and went on the "attack because I'm being persecuted" ...again.
Are you really that shallow?
If you don't believe then you have no morals to stop you from committing a crime against, first God's Law, then man's law...... Where do those laws come from anyway...... What limits your behavior.....
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#308
Mar 27, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
I asked where you got your religious upbringing. If you choose not to answer than I have no choice but to assume you are self-taught, especially when you ask questions that are answered in kids church. I grew up without going to church so by the end of HS I really didn't care. In college I became an atheist. After my graduate work I got married and became a Southern Baptist. That gave me a great foundation. Then moved and become Dutch Reformed. After additional moves become involved in the non-denominational/Charismatic church. At that time I took classes in Seminary because moving into full-time ministry was a real option.
I have friends who grew up Catholic so they have a specific paradigm when it comes to the Bible and authority. Same with friends who grew up in a Pentacostal church that had no real Bible study but long services and lots of encounters with the Holy Spirit. I have lots of Southern Baptist relatives who are very uncomfortable with the Charasmatic. I have Charasmatic friends who are uncomfortable with the suit and tie of high church. Neither are wrong, it jsut colors our conversation.
In response to my question you gave verses about coming to Jesus. But these people who had performed miracles were coming to Jesus. They were not claiming eternal life based on race (Jewish) or standing (Priests) but on the fact (not disputed by Jesus) that they had performed many miracles in the name of Jesus Christ.
I hate to beat this, but to me and where I've come from, I used this example with kids. This isn't a seminary or even adult level question. It's like when I ask kids why they should go to Heaven and they say "I believe Jesus is God." I tell the that Satan knows Jesus is God, so why do they go and Satan doesn't? A long time ago a guy talked about Biblical Christians, Secular Christians and Phiilosophical Christians. Three distinct groups with distinct beliefs. One goes to heaven, the other two don't.
Another example of what I'm talking about is in the first pages of the Left Behind series. The rapture happens and the next day there are still a lot of people left who attended church but didn't disappear. And there are Muslims and Jews who were gone.
At this point I'm not trying to have an argument but to find a place of agreement. Or at least understanding.
You're looking to find a place of agreement or for an understanding that agrees with your (current) understanding. As long as it doesn't agree with your understanding there will be no understanding or place of agreement.

Those who believe Jesus is God were taught by those who were taught that by those who were taught that....

Wrong has been taught as being right for as long as teaching has been. What difference should it make where the teachings come from as long as they are correct teachings. I will not give you my background on teachings as I have no belief that should make a difference. Other than of course the Bible. To believe only where one has been taught is to believe killing is wrong only because religion says it's wrong. So to say because even children say Jesus is God is a ludicrous rebuttal.

“Where I came from”

Since: Jan 09

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#309
Mar 27, 2013
 

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Sure am glad god gave me free will to not believe in the doctrine, religions, and weird rituals created by man.

“Where I came from”

Since: Jan 09

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#310
Mar 28, 2013
 

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What I wonder sometimes is why Chritians think they are the only ones who know the truth or have a corner on the god market place? With them its our way or go to hell.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

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#311
Mar 28, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>If you don't believe then you have no morals to stop you from committing a crime against, first God's Law, then man's law...... Where do those laws come from anyway...... What limits your behavior.....
Probably one of your most illogigal comments ever Batch.
The concept that there are no morals or ethics outside the construct of your god-being has no basis or validity what so ever.
If you and your fellow "christians" are so morally weak you need a god-being and religion and the tythe to control your inner immoral feelings for lust and murder so be it. You only show that you are weak and immoral by your upbringing.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

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#312
Mar 28, 2013
 

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Shoeless Eluder wrote:
What I wonder sometimes is why Chritians think they are the only ones who know the truth or have a corner on the god market place? With them its our way or go to hell.
It's complicated Shoeless...religion and the associated god-being are at fault but the almighty tythe works wonders. A little tythe and some praying can work wonders...if you fall for the scam.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Plainwell, MI

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#313
Mar 28, 2013
 

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Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
Probably one of your most illogigal comments ever Batch.
The concept that there are no morals or ethics outside the construct of your god-being has no basis or validity what so ever.
If you and your fellow "christians" are so morally weak you need a god-being and religion and the tythe to control your inner immoral feelings for lust and murder so be it. You only show that you are weak and immoral by your upbringing.
So why the incessant attack against one group of people who only mind there own business... Attacks get answered and so what if you don't have the same faith......

“Where I came from”

Since: Jan 09

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#314
Mar 28, 2013
 

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Mr Wiggley wrote:
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It's complicated Shoeless...religion and the associated god-being are at fault but the almighty tythe works wonders. A little tythe and some praying can work wonders...if you fall for the scam.
I know we don't always agree on things but this is one where we reach common ground. People are not born christian or muslim or jewish or any other religion for that matter, they are taught these things. No one ever taught me to believe a certain way I have developed and evolved over my life to be free from all this, we have seen through the centuries what religious beliefs have done to people. I watch a little christian TV and what I get from some of it is "they" would love for this country to be turned into a christian nation and then take power and force people to believe..

“Selected Marksman”

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Mar 28, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>So why the incessant attack against one group of people who only mind there own business... Attacks get answered and so what if you don't have the same faith......
You are and were the one on the attack Batch.
You clearly and repeatedly claimed no one could have morals outside of your god-being halo. I made no such claim nor did I set any such standard for morals with regard to any god-being. You did and have over and over...it's your god-being and no other.
Neither did I nor have I ever made claim that you are in any way immoral because of your christian beliefs. You have made such claims against me purely because I refuse to recognize your god-being.

Sorry, no persecution points for an imaginary "incessant attack" against your specific, fundamental, selectively inclusive, and exclusive christian beliefs.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Plainwell, MI

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#316
Mar 28, 2013
 

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Mr Wiggley wrote:
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You are and were the one on the attack Batch.
You clearly and repeatedly claimed no one could have morals outside of your god-being halo. I made no such claim nor did I set any such standard for morals with regard to any god-being. You did and have over and over...it's your god-being and no other.
Neither did I nor have I ever made claim that you are in any way immoral because of your christian beliefs. You have made such claims against me purely because I refuse to recognize your god-being.
Sorry, no persecution points for an imaginary "incessant attack" against your specific, fundamental, selectively inclusive, and exclusive christian beliefs.
Right....... You see things that are not there...... I don't care that you have no faith but I do care that your team seems to want to remove any faith from society..... Believe what you will, just leave others alone and stop attacking the Seasons that Billions enjoy and reflect upon....

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

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#317
Mar 28, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Right....... You see things that are not there...... I don't care that you have no faith but I do care that your team seems to want to remove any faith from society..... Believe what you will, just leave others alone and stop attacking the Seasons that Billions enjoy and reflect upon....
No, "I see things" quite clearly.
You and others have openly and repeatedly made it clear that you honestly believe that I and anyone who dares to disagree with you and your god-being beliefs have no moral compass and can not perceive your sense of morality.

Sorry Batch...you have exposed yourself...
Move on while you can.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

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#318
Mar 28, 2013
 

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Shoeless Eluder wrote:
<quoted text>I know we don't always agree on things but this is one where we reach common ground. People are not born christian or muslim or jewish or any other religion for that matter, they are taught these things. No one ever taught me to believe a certain way I have developed and evolved over my life to be free from all this, we have seen through the centuries what religious beliefs have done to people. I watch a little christian TV and what I get from some of it is "they" would love for this country to be turned into a christian nation and then take power and force people to believe..
^5 Shoeless...
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Plainwell, MI

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#319
Mar 28, 2013
 

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Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
No, "I see things" quite clearly.
You and others have openly and repeatedly made it clear that you honestly believe that I and anyone who dares to disagree with you and your god-being beliefs have no moral compass and can not perceive your sense of morality.
Sorry Batch...you have exposed yourself...
Move on while you can.
I have never said that in your context..... I merely pointed out where did your morals come from. Might have caused you to think a second instead of lumping half the world into some cult. You are probably against the Easter Bunny and children collecting eggs....... They might grow up helping their fellow man some day because of their faith...... Evil freaks.......
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Plainwell, MI

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Mar 28, 2013
 

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Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
No, "I see things" quite clearly.
You and others have openly and repeatedly made it clear that you honestly believe that I and anyone who dares to disagree with you and your god-being beliefs have no moral compass and can not perceive your sense of morality.
Sorry Batch...you have exposed yourself...
Move on while you can.
And a message from your team...... Wonder how many people have been fed by this ass.... http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/27/bi... -
Bill

Hudsonville, MI

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Mar 29, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>And a message from your team...... Wonder how many people have been fed by this ass.... http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/27/bi... -
Give up trying to argue with Wiggly. He's not interested in salvation, thinks he knows it all, doesn't believe in God or religion and has devoted his life to dragging others to believe in his unbelief. Kind of like Paul before the trip to Damascus except Wiggs is blind before the trip - and loving it!

“Selected Marksman”

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#322
Mar 29, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>I have never said that in your context..... I merely pointed out where did your morals come from. Might have caused you to think a second instead of lumping half the world into some cult. You are probably against the Easter Bunny and children collecting eggs....... They might grow up helping their fellow man some day because of their faith...... Evil freaks.......
Sheeeesh, yet another bonehead...
Quote from YOU: "If you don't believe then you have no morals to stop you from committing a crime"

What's being taken out of context here Batch?? Can't you christians remember anything you say?

“Selected Marksman”

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#323
Mar 29, 2013
 

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Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
Give up trying to argue with Wiggly. He's not interested in salvation, thinks he knows it all, doesn't believe in God or religion and has devoted his life to dragging others to believe in his unbelief. Kind of like Paul before the trip to Damascus except Wiggs is blind before the trip - and loving it!
You just had to take a swing and try to demean me didn't 'cha?
Monumental Fail...

Why would I be interested in your version of "salvation"? There's 38,000+ christian variations plus plenty of other religions to choose from...non of which can prove their heaven-place even exists. That does not make me any less "saved" than you...I'm just wiser than you and didn't get sucked into the first deal that was offered and dare to question the specifics before jumping in.

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