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281 - 300 of 319 Comments Last updated Mar 29, 2013
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#285
Mar 23, 2013
 

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vox veritatis wrote:
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Most of the Jews didn't reject Him...huge crowds followed Him wherever he went with some Biblical accounts numbering them from 5,000 to 10,000 and apparently you've forgotten his entrance into Jerusalem just prior to His crucifixion (the religious holiday we now celebrate as Palm Sunday). Not even all the Pharisees rejected him...remember Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin? Why are the two religions now different? Pfft...I thought you claimed you were a Bible scholar and you ask a question such as that? The Jewish people of today, most of them, are operating under the belief that their Messiah has not yet come. Christians, however, recognize Jesus as the promised Messiah who said He was establishing a new covenant.
I suppose it could have been the minority that called for Caesar to crucify Him. Makes one wonder where the throngs of believers were to shout down the disbelievers now doesn't it.

And the way you're looking at it Nicodemus constituted a majority of the Pharisees.

Ya, ya think? I've already explained why the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#286
Mar 23, 2013
 

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Really wrote:
<quoted text>There are a couple of reasons why the Jewish religion is different from the Christian religion. Actually, there are several and as a person who has been talking and talking and talking about how learned you are in the Scriptures, I would certainly think you would know them.
I do know. You just missed the points of the questions.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#287
Mar 24, 2013
 

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SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
I haven't been saying he wasn't born Jewish.
So answer if He was a practicing Jew why did the Jews reject Him and why did the Pharisees reject Him? And if He was a practicing Jew why is the Jewish and Christian religions different to this day?
And quite trying to make what I say what you want to be believe it is rather than what I am actually talking about.
Because you are a free thinker doesn't make you an accurate thinker.
Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "'I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them,'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?''We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews,'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God'" (John 10:30-33).

Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: "'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?''I am,' said Jesus.'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven'" (Mark 14:61-62 NIV). A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words. Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making an overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14). In doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the Universe but also prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him. Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory. To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64-65).

Of course if one doesn't believe Jesus claimed to be God, then his trial and death make no sense. Jesus would not have been crucified for claiming to be a man, a prophet or even the Messiah (in the sword swinging, take out the Roman type).

The early church was very Jewish, in fact that was one of the first controversies. When a man joined the church did they have to get circumcised? Was it spiritually ok to eat pork?
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#288
Mar 24, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "'I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them,'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?''We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews,'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God'" (John 10:30-33).
Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: "'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?''I am,' said Jesus.'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven'" (Mark 14:61-62 NIV). A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words. Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making an overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14). In doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the Universe but also prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him. Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory. To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64-65).
Of course if one doesn't believe Jesus claimed to be God, then his trial and death make no sense. Jesus would not have been crucified for claiming to be a man, a prophet or even the Messiah (in the sword swinging, take out the Roman type).
The early church was very Jewish, in fact that was one of the first controversies. When a man joined the church did they have to get circumcised? Was it spiritually ok to eat pork?
How can God be the Son of Man? How can God be the Son of God?

Ya, sure, the Biblically literate...

I'll put it this way. If you are the complete messenger and son of your father bestowed with every power of and follow your father's edicts precisely without variance, are you thereby your father?

Then how do you explain this:
John 14:12 ¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So then Jesus made the Apostles God also?

Or this:
John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

How could God possibly be the seed of David?

The mistakenly heard by the Pharisees and the Jews is the same as misheard today, that Jesus was/is God. That is not to take away from Jesus being the Son of God with all the powers, etc. of God.

Then again I do not believe anyone is going to be sent to eternal damnation for such a small, though not insignificant, misinterpretation. Though very significant as it was in crucifying the messenger.

If one is to follow the Bible though it should be significant to be literate in what it is truly saying. And many many people get really warm fuzzies from believing God was there to look at them and speak with and touch them and be touched by Him (God).
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Owosso, MI

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#289
Mar 24, 2013
 

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I see the non believer Progressives are still busy being intolerant......

Tonight's episode should have good numbers again!

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#290
Mar 24, 2013
 

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SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
How can God be the Son of Man? How can God be the Son of God?
Ya, sure, the Biblically literate...
I'll put it this way. If you are the complete messenger and son of your father bestowed with every power of and follow your father's edicts precisely without variance, are you thereby your father?
Then how do you explain this:
John 14:12 ¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
So then Jesus made the Apostles God also?
Or this:
John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
How could God possibly be the seed of David?
The mistakenly heard by the Pharisees and the Jews is the same as misheard today, that Jesus was/is God. That is not to take away from Jesus being the Son of God with all the powers, etc. of God.
Then again I do not believe anyone is going to be sent to eternal damnation for such a small, though not insignificant, misinterpretation. Though very significant as it was in crucifying the messenger.
If one is to follow the Bible though it should be significant to be literate in what it is truly saying. And many many people get really warm fuzzies from believing God was there to look at them and speak with and touch them and be touched by Him (God).
I'm really curious as to if you ever really went to church or if you are totally self taught? The questions you are asking are things that get handled in kids church as well as all over the internet. You can go to www.bible.org along with millions of other sites and find the answers.

http://bible.org/article/why-god-became-man

I would also expect you to have, based on your claims, access to Bible Dictionaries and multiple commentaries. For example "Son of God is a title of nature, not of office and that his claim to this title is a claim of equality with God" (Easton's)

Son of man is also a title of nature. "It denotes the true humanity of our Lord. He had a true body and a rational soul. He was perfect man." (Easton's).

Jesus reference to the Apostles was that they could be in more places at the same time than he could. He could heal someone who was in front of him, but because he was limited by his physical body, he couldn't at the same time heal someone on the other side of the world. Today millions are being healed around the world through the power of the Holy Spirit by modern disciples around the world.

Re Romans 1:3 the NIV may help. "regarding his Son, who AS TO HIS HUMAN NATURE was a descendant of David. His fleshly body came from David, but as we all know, our body is only one part of who we really are.

And there was no mistake on what people heard. Especially since he had multiple opportunities to clarify things. If he was going to be killed for claiming to be God but that's not what he meant, he could have easily said "wait, what I meant was that I'm just a man who follows God like Moses did." There was nothing he did, other than commit blasphemy by claiming to be God, that would have gotten him executed. He told people to pay their taxes, he healed people, he never incited against Rome. He wasn't the first or last to claim to be the Messiah. John was just as harsh against the Jewish leadership, but they left him alone. There was only one reason to kill him, and Jesus never denied the charge of blasphemy.

You can go into any of the local Christian book stores, or get on Amazon and find the answers to your questions. For as little as $2 :-)

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#291
Mar 24, 2013
 

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SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
How can God be the Son of Man? How can God be the Son of God?
Ya, sure, the Biblically literate...
I'll put it this way. If you are the complete messenger and son of your father bestowed with every power of and follow your father's edicts precisely without variance, are you thereby your father?
Then how do you explain this:
John 14:12 ¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
So then Jesus made the Apostles God also?
Or this:
John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
How could God possibly be the seed of David?
The mistakenly heard by the Pharisees and the Jews is the same as misheard today, that Jesus was/is God. That is not to take away from Jesus being the Son of God with all the powers, etc. of God.
Then again I do not believe anyone is going to be sent to eternal damnation for such a small, though not insignificant, misinterpretation. Though very significant as it was in crucifying the messenger.
If one is to follow the Bible though it should be significant to be literate in what it is truly saying. And many many people get really warm fuzzies from believing God was there to look at them and speak with and touch them and be touched by Him (God).
I didn't have a chance to ask this in my previous post so this is sort of Part 2.
You said that you "do not believe anyone is going to be sent to eternal damnation for such a small, though not insignificant, misinterpretation." Satan knows that Jesus was God in the flesh, otherwise the testing in the wilderness was the ramblings of a lunatic on both sides. So if Satan KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God in the flesh, but according to you, it isn't important for John Doe to believe that, then why does John Doe get into heaven but not Satan? What does John Doe KNOW that Satan doesn't? Or what does John Doe BELIEVE that Satan doesn't know or believe? And following with this, what gets John Doe into heaven but not Satan or the local Muslim/Atheist/Hindu/etc.?

I'll make this very real here.(Mt 7:22-23)

John Doe, Satan, a Muslim and you are standing in line, in front of Jesus after death. The person in front of Jesus says ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And the response from Jesus is "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
Jesus never denies that they did those things. He essentially agrees that they drove out demons, healed people, used words of knowledge, prophecy, etc. Perhaps even raised the dead. Yet he won't let them in to heaven. So what gets John Doe and even more importantly, you into heaven? Have you prophesized in His name? Have you healed the sick? Raised the dead? Driven out demons? Performed "many miracles"?

So, based on Mt 7: 22-23, who gets into heaven and why?

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

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#292
Mar 24, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't have a chance to ask this in my previous post so this is sort of Part 2.
You said that you "do not believe anyone is going to be sent to eternal damnation for such a small, though not insignificant, misinterpretation." Satan knows that Jesus was God in the flesh, otherwise the testing in the wilderness was the ramblings of a lunatic on both sides. So if Satan KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God in the flesh, but according to you, it isn't important for John Doe to believe that, then why does John Doe get into heaven but not Satan? What does John Doe KNOW that Satan doesn't? Or what does John Doe BELIEVE that Satan doesn't know or believe? And following with this, what gets John Doe into heaven but not Satan or the local Muslim/Atheist/Hindu/etc.?
I'll make this very real here.(Mt 7:22-23)
John Doe, Satan, a Muslim and you are standing in line, in front of Jesus after death. The person in front of Jesus says ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And the response from Jesus is "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
Jesus never denies that they did those things. He essentially agrees that they drove out demons, healed people, used words of knowledge, prophecy, etc. Perhaps even raised the dead. Yet he won't let them in to heaven. So what gets John Doe and even more importantly, you into heaven? Have you prophesized in His name? Have you healed the sick? Raised the dead? Driven out demons? Performed "many miracles"?
So, based on Mt 7: 22-23, who gets into heaven and why?
The twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Or that's at least one of the thousands of arguements I've entertained, studied, and rejected...as should you.
John 3:16 nullifies the requirement/entitlement from your verses.
Or maybe there's more than one version of heaven??

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#293
Mar 24, 2013
 

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Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
The twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Or that's at least one of the thousands of arguements I've entertained, studied, and rejected...as should you.
John 3:16 nullifies the requirement/entitlement from your verses.
Or maybe there's more than one version of heaven??
Except this isn't some Priest or other asking we are talking about. This is Jesus making a definitive statement. If John 3:16 nullifies the statement then Jesus would have simply welcomed them in. He didn't.

1) They stated that they had healed people, cast out demons, performed miracles, etc. All in the name of Jesus Christ.
2) Jesus did not dispute that or claim they were making things up.
3) Jesus denied them life in heaven.
4) Now Jesus turns to you. It is your turn.

Universalism is a crock.
There isn't more than one version of heaven.
SeenItBefore

Jenison, MI

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#294
Mar 24, 2013
 

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FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't have a chance to ask this in my previous post so this is sort of Part 2.
You said that you "do not believe anyone is going to be sent to eternal damnation for such a small, though not insignificant, misinterpretation." Satan knows that Jesus was God in the flesh, otherwise the testing in the wilderness was the ramblings of a lunatic on both sides. So if Satan KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus was God in the flesh, but according to you, it isn't important for John Doe to believe that, then why does John Doe get into heaven but not Satan? What does John Doe KNOW that Satan doesn't? Or what does John Doe BELIEVE that Satan doesn't know or believe? And following with this, what gets John Doe into heaven but not Satan or the local Muslim/Atheist/Hindu/etc.?
I'll make this very real here.(Mt 7:22-23)
John Doe, Satan, a Muslim and you are standing in line, in front of Jesus after death. The person in front of Jesus says ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ And the response from Jesus is "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"
Jesus never denies that they did those things. He essentially agrees that they drove out demons, healed people, used words of knowledge, prophecy, etc. Perhaps even raised the dead. Yet he won't let them in to heaven. So what gets John Doe and even more importantly, you into heaven? Have you prophesized in His name? Have you healed the sick? Raised the dead? Driven out demons? Performed "many miracles"?
So, based on Mt 7: 22-23, who gets into heaven and why?
Well it's obvious you believe I'm self taught, and/or have never gone to church, yadda yadda yadda.

The only answer I will give you as it pertains to your question of Mt 7: 22-23 except for;
John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That answers your question quite clearly.

You believe what you need to believe. Even what you need to believe about me having no idea what I'm talking about.

I have no reason to believe this "discussion" need continue.

“Where I came from”

Since: Jan 09

the universe

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#295
Mar 25, 2013
 

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If I was created by God it gave me my mind to think differently to believe differently and live differently. To challenge well worn beliefs in magical places like heaven or that I am a sinner. God created me just like it created the person who becomes a christian or a jew or a muslim, I am just becoming. We were all created in a flash whether it was seven thousand or four billion years ago it all happened at one time in a flash of light. So I believe I have been alive since the beginning of time when my soul was created and it will live eternally one way or another the soul will never die only the flesh..
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Whitmore Lake, MI

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#296
Mar 25, 2013
 

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Shoeless Eluder wrote:
If I was created by God it gave me my mind to think differently to believe differently and live differently. To challenge well worn beliefs in magical places like heaven or that I am a sinner. God created me just like it created the person who becomes a christian or a jew or a muslim, I am just becoming. We were all created in a flash whether it was seven thousand or four billion years ago it all happened at one time in a flash of light. So I believe I have been alive since the beginning of time when my soul was created and it will live eternally one way or another the soul will never die only the flesh..
Friend, I will keep this short..... Free Will.....
Thor

Rockford, MI

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#297
Mar 25, 2013
 

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SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
How can God be the Son of Man?
Because all gods are the creation of man. Man has been making up gods for the better part of 10,000 years now, possibly longer.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

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#298
Mar 26, 2013
 

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Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:
<quoted text>Friend, I will keep this short..... Free Will.....
The concept of "free will" is impossible within the construct of your god-being being omnipotent and all-knowing.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

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#299
Mar 26, 2013
 
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
Except this isn't some Priest or other asking we are talking about. This is Jesus making a definitive statement. If John 3:16 nullifies the statement then Jesus would have simply welcomed them in. He didn't.
1) They stated that they had healed people, cast out demons, performed miracles, etc. All in the name of Jesus Christ.
2) Jesus did not dispute that or claim they were making things up.
3) Jesus denied them life in heaven.
4) Now Jesus turns to you. It is your turn.
Universalism is a crock.
There isn't more than one version of heaven.
You are a typical christian from the drove of 38,000+ divisions.
Your intepretations and requirements vary slightly from the others whom also claim their's is the correct translation of what your jesus said. The interesting part is you all band together when it comes to generalitis but gladly throw eachother under the bus when it comes to specifics.
Nice try but actually boring...I've heard it all before.
Batch 37 Pain Is Good

Owosso, MI

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#300
Mar 26, 2013
 
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
The concept of "free will" is impossible within the construct of your god-being being omnipotent and all-knowing.
Your choice to decide then...... What is holding you back from child raping again.......

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#301
Mar 26, 2013
 
SeenItBefore wrote:
<quoted text>
Well it's obvious you believe I'm self taught, and/or have never gone to church, yadda yadda yadda.
The only answer I will give you as it pertains to your question of Mt 7: 22-23 except for;
John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That answers your question quite clearly.
You believe what you need to believe. Even what you need to believe about me having no idea what I'm talking about.
I have no reason to believe this "discussion" need continue.
I asked where you got your religious upbringing. If you choose not to answer than I have no choice but to assume you are self-taught, especially when you ask questions that are answered in kids church. I grew up without going to church so by the end of HS I really didn't care. In college I became an atheist. After my graduate work I got married and became a Southern Baptist. That gave me a great foundation. Then moved and become Dutch Reformed. After additional moves become involved in the non-denominational/Charismatic church. At that time I took classes in Seminary because moving into full-time ministry was a real option.

I have friends who grew up Catholic so they have a specific paradigm when it comes to the Bible and authority. Same with friends who grew up in a Pentacostal church that had no real Bible study but long services and lots of encounters with the Holy Spirit. I have lots of Southern Baptist relatives who are very uncomfortable with the Charasmatic. I have Charasmatic friends who are uncomfortable with the suit and tie of high church. Neither are wrong, it jsut colors our conversation.

In response to my question you gave verses about coming to Jesus. But these people who had performed miracles were coming to Jesus. They were not claiming eternal life based on race (Jewish) or standing (Priests) but on the fact (not disputed by Jesus) that they had performed many miracles in the name of Jesus Christ.

I hate to beat this, but to me and where I've come from, I used this example with kids. This isn't a seminary or even adult level question. It's like when I ask kids why they should go to Heaven and they say "I believe Jesus is God." I tell the that Satan knows Jesus is God, so why do they go and Satan doesn't? A long time ago a guy talked about Biblical Christians, Secular Christians and Phiilosophical Christians. Three distinct groups with distinct beliefs. One goes to heaven, the other two don't.

Another example of what I'm talking about is in the first pages of the Left Behind series. The rapture happens and the next day there are still a lot of people left who attended church but didn't disappear. And there are Muslims and Jews who were gone.

At this point I'm not trying to have an argument but to find a place of agreement. Or at least understanding.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#302
Mar 26, 2013
 
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
You are a typical christian from the drove of 38,000+ divisions.
Your intepretations and requirements vary slightly from the others whom also claim their's is the correct translation of what your jesus said. The interesting part is you all band together when it comes to generalitis but gladly throw eachother under the bus when it comes to specifics.
Nice try but actually boring...I've heard it all before.
So give me your interpretation. Since you have heard this all before (which I seriously doubt) I'd really like to hear your interpretation of Mt. 7:22-23.

See, I think you have no clue what "my interpretation" is. But I want to see what your interpretation is and even better what you think my interpretation is, and how it is so different from everyone else's.

Looking forward to you putting up or shutting up.

Since: Feb 10

Grand Rapids, MI

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#303
Mar 26, 2013
 
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
The concept of "free will" is impossible within the construct of your god-being being omnipotent and all-knowing.
Actually you have it backwards. Not arguing from a Christian POV here. Logically and philosophically it's been shown that if there is no God (however one defines that) and we are simply a natural collection of cells, etc. then there is no free will. Under naturalism you have no more choice in what you do than a rock has in rolling down hill or a dog does in going after a piece of meat.

If I feed my dog all day and then show him a meaty bone, he still goes after it. He has no choice. If I throw a rock in the air, it comes down. Kant went really deep with this because as he argued, when we argue that "can't" and "should" are real options, they can only be options if we have a choice. A rock doesn't have a choice to roll down hill nor does a dog have a choice to chase a bone. If man has a choice than there must be something greater than nature giving us that choice, otherwise what we perceive as choice is simply an illusion.

So, and this is was settled hundreds of years ago. If we have free will there is a God who allows us that choice. If there is no God then we truly have no free will and our belief is simply an illusion.

So. Do you have free-will or is it simply an illusion?

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

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#304
Mar 27, 2013
 
FLBeaver wrote:
<quoted text>
So give me your interpretation. Since you have heard this all before (which I seriously doubt) I'd really like to hear your interpretation of Mt. 7:22-23.
See, I think you have no clue what "my interpretation" is. But I want to see what your interpretation is and even better what you think my interpretation is, and how it is so different from everyone else's.
Looking forward to you putting up or shutting up.
Biblical sensationalism at it's best. Nothing more than that and nothing more to be said. Impossible to prove and any belief of such acts is strictly limited to those who are indoctrinated by their religion.
Personally, I could care less what "your intepretation" is...unless I needed a good laugh.
By the way...there's one of those domon thingys under your bed...BOOOO!!!

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