“think for yourself”

Since: Aug 08

GR

#82 Sep 15, 2010
radell wrote:
<quoted text>Again, the logic is wrong. If you say it's the same God, you are throwing out the 'only' way doctrine, and believers can't go for that. The point to emphasize is that all 3 religions preach love and peace. Again, the golden rule.
I suppose I am getting an answer from you, just not as completely straight forward I had hoped. I appreciate the thought process, I do, but it is in fact rooted in the same biblical god, just differs in the conceptions we were speaking of earlier.

Basically, what I am getting from you is that you cannot even bring yourself to say it is based upon the different teachings and the different conceptions one gets about god from those teachings from the named prophet (or divine prophet).

Point being, in my opinion, humankind will never achieve peace over this issue and will probably blow each other up and the world over this idea of what and who god really is.

As Hurley stated before wondering where my atheism comes from, this is one of the many reasons. It does not come from hatred or being confused, it comes from the golden rule they all are preaching, but not following in the end. It comes from actually loving my fellow human being and not being willing to think that this one god rooted in all three religions could favor any one doctrine.

“think for yourself”

Since: Aug 08

GR

#83 Sep 15, 2010
Gentle Taz wrote:
<quoted text>
We are already running into those pesky details I mentioned earlier. The mandatory reading aloud of the Quran was established by their religious leaders as a parts of their culture. It helped keep the religious leaders in power as the leaders of their nations. That is a very muddy area of the discussion, trying to separate man's modifications of what the prophets got from God from what actually came from God. That explains much of the strife thsat occurs within each religion between the various sects or denominations, whichever you choose to call them. Christians disagree with christians, jews disagree with Jews, and muslims disagree with muslims. Is it any wonder that the details derail much of the best that can come from religion?
You make a wonderful point. How can people even begin to agree on the god they are all rooted in, when the same religions following the same doctrine cannot even agree with each other about their own conceptual god? Maybe I am naive for wanting peace. But I would rather live being naive and wanting peace than living in conflict over what conception or what doctrine is the "true" doctrine.

Thank you Taz for all your wise comments.

Since: Sep 08

Muskegon

#84 Sep 15, 2010
Amazarak wrote:
<quoted text>
I suppose I am getting an answer from you, just not as completely straight forward I had hoped. I appreciate the thought process, I do, but it is in fact rooted in the same biblical god, just differs in the conceptions we were speaking of earlier.
Basically, what I am getting from you is that you cannot even bring yourself to say it is based upon the different teachings and the different conceptions one gets about god from those teachings from the named prophet (or divine prophet).
Point being, in my opinion, humankind will never achieve peace over this issue and will probably blow each other up and the world over this idea of what and who god really is.
As Hurley stated before wondering where my atheism comes from, this is one of the many reasons. It does not come from hatred or being confused, it comes from the golden rule they all are preaching, but not following in the end. It comes from actually loving my fellow human being and not being willing to think that this one god rooted in all three religions could favor any one doctrine.
You want peace. Go at it from the parts of those religions that preach peace. Don't impose your logic on believers, because you see things completely differently from their way, and it won't work.

“November 12th, 2011”

Since: Nov 07

up a tree

#85 Sep 15, 2010
Amazarak wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe I am naive for wanting peace. But I would rather live being naive and wanting peace than living in conflict over what conception or what doctrine is the "true" doctrine.
It seems to me that it's not religion that divides us and breaks the peace, but rather we are acting exactly as nature has designed ALL animals to act. The strong people will always prey upon the weak. People will always covet the possessions and status (territory/mates/pecking order position) of others and try to find ways to take it. People will always want the the most while investing the least. People will let color be used as a determining factor for socialization. When push comes to shove people will value and place more importance on their own and their families survival than the survival of non family.

The fact is, that you could substitute the word "animals" for the word "people" in my above post and it be just as accurate.

Could we evolve and get away from these behaviors? Maybe, but that kind of natural evolution will take a thousand lifetimes, but maybe just maybe, embracing religion will give us the ability to get us there a heck of a lot quicker.

that's my 2 cents anyway.

Orv

Since: Jan 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#86 Sep 15, 2010
Gentle Taz wrote:
<quoted text>
The Heidleburg Catechism...Where is that found in the bible? It is not! It is the invention of man to support their interpretation of the bible, colored by their own personal beliefs and prejudices. It is part of one denomination, and most likely is disputed by some in that very same denomination. It is an invention of man, not God.
sorry, I don't get on here as much as I should. All answeres are supported and taken from the Bible not the invention or predjudice of man or one denomination

Orv

Since: Jan 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#87 Sep 15, 2010
There will never be peace, it was said so by Christ himself

Matthew 24:6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Because of the evil in man peace will never happen.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#88 Sep 15, 2010
Amazarak wrote:
<quoted text>
I suppose I am getting an answer from you, just not as completely straight forward I had hoped. I appreciate the thought process, I do, but it is in fact rooted in the same biblical god, just differs in the conceptions we were speaking of earlier.
Basically, what I am getting from you is that you cannot even bring yourself to say it is based upon the different teachings and the different conceptions one gets about god from those teachings from the named prophet (or divine prophet).
Point being, in my opinion, humankind will never achieve peace over this issue and will probably blow each other up and the world over this idea of what and who god really is.
As Hurley stated before wondering where my atheism comes from, this is one of the many reasons. It does not come from hatred or being confused, it comes from the golden rule they all are preaching, but not following in the end. It comes from actually loving my fellow human being and not being willing to think that this one god rooted in all three religions could favor any one doctrine.
Something to ponder...
Since followers of any religion do so out of faith, i.e. belief without proof, this implies the follower is left to create the deity/god in the image of their choosing...ever see someone worship a god they didn't like?

Of course not.

Religion is projection, a quirk of human psychology.

That being said, you may never obtain the peace amoungst humans you and I and many others desire...

Since: Sep 08

Muskegon

#89 Sep 15, 2010
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
Something to ponder...
Since followers of any religion do so out of faith, i.e. belief without proof, this implies the follower is left to create the deity/god in the image of their choosing...ever see someone worship a god they didn't like?
Of course not.
Religion is projection, a quirk of human psychology.
That being said, you may never obtain the peace amoungst humans you and I and many others desire...
There have been many unlikeable gods during history. Many.

Since: Apr 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#90 Sep 15, 2010
I have to say I'm a bit sick of the attitude.

Amazarak. You called out Christians a few pages ago and insinuated that we ruined your discussion because all we were doing was declaring our religion was the best.

You ignore all the anti Christian comments and put downs.

I don't know who made the comment that all three religions were rooted in peace but I respectfully disagree.

First, the verses that call for violence in the old testament are not considered relevant today for the majority of Jews. There are not many calls for physical violence in the new testament and violence by modern Christians and Jews aimed at non believers for no other reason than they are non believers is rare.

Second, the Quaran calls for nonbelievers to be conquered or killed. There are those who follow islam who do not observe the call to violence. Unfortunatly the muslims who are committed to violence are a much higher percentage than in The Christian or Jewish faith. It's a fact.

Murders because people offended some aspect of Islam occure on a daily basis. The amount of violence committed around the world in the name of Islam is staggering compared to Jews and Christians. It's commonplace and horrific.

I know nothing I've said here will change the opinions the opinions of those who can do nothing but spout the party line but there it is.

As I said two pages ago, I think all discussion is good but if you truly want an open exchange of ideas then everybody should be allowed to share their opinions without biased accusations intended to shut people down.

Since: Jun 07

Location hidden

#91 Sep 16, 2010
pwner wrote:
I have to say I'm a bit sick of the attitude.
Amazarak. You called out Christians a few pages ago and insinuated that we ruined your discussion because all we were doing was declaring our religion was the best.
You ignore all the anti Christian comments and put downs.
I don't know who made the comment that all three religions were rooted in peace but I respectfully disagree.
First, the verses that call for violence in the old testament are not considered relevant today for the majority of Jews. There are not many calls for physical violence in the new testament and violence by modern Christians and Jews aimed at non believers for no other reason than they are non believers is rare.
Second, the Quaran calls for nonbelievers to be conquered or killed. There are those who follow islam who do not observe the call to violence. Unfortunatly the muslims who are committed to violence are a much higher percentage than in The Christian or Jewish faith. It's a fact.
Murders because people offended some aspect of Islam occure on a daily basis. The amount of violence committed around the world in the name of Islam is staggering compared to Jews and Christians. It's commonplace and horrific.
islam is a younger religion than christianity.

Look at the slaughter of millions committed by christians during the crusades when christianity was younger. christianity has more blood on it's hands than islam does, and certainly no better history.
It would stand to reason that islam will become more watered down as time goes by like christianity has.

“think for yourself”

Since: Aug 08

GR

#92 Sep 16, 2010
pwner wrote:
I have to say I'm a bit sick of the attitude.
Amazarak. You called out Christians a few pages ago and insinuated that we ruined your discussion because all we were doing was declaring our religion was the best.
You ignore all the anti Christian comments and put downs.
I don't know who made the comment that all three religions were rooted in peace but I respectfully disagree.
First, the verses that call for violence in the old testament are not considered relevant today for the majority of Jews. There are not many calls for physical violence in the new testament and violence by modern Christians and Jews aimed at non believers for no other reason than they are non believers is rare.
Second, the Quaran calls for nonbelievers to be conquered or killed. There are those who follow islam who do not observe the call to violence. Unfortunatly the muslims who are committed to violence are a much higher percentage than in The Christian or Jewish faith. It's a fact.
Murders because people offended some aspect of Islam occure on a daily basis. The amount of violence committed around the world in the name of Islam is staggering compared to Jews and Christians. It's commonplace and horrific.
I know nothing I've said here will change the opinions the opinions of those who can do nothing but spout the party line but there it is.
As I said two pages ago, I think all discussion is good but if you truly want an open exchange of ideas then everybody should be allowed to share their opinions without biased accusations intended to shut people down.
You make a good point. I became a bit upset at the people not willing to accept the fact that the three religions were based on this one God. This is not opinion, it is fact. Where they branch off from Abraham is where the differences begin. It seemed no one wanted to accept that. Then the misconceptions of Mohammed began. The thing is, Mecca, the most holy place in Islam, the stone there is supoosedly a stone building built by Adam. Then rebuilt by Abraham after the Flood. The black stone is said to have 'fallen from the heavens' that Abraham used to build. But after Abraham is where all the religions break off into their own conceptions of what and who God is. That is all I have been trying to say.

While yes, Islam is a violent religion. I don't think anyone has a problem seeing that. The problem I think people have is that the same lines of text can be found in Christianity. But then, the apologists will tell you that is not how it is supposed to be interpreted. But whatever, it doesn't matter, the lines of text are there. While most versions of Christianity do not practice that anymore, especially here in secularised America where we have the courts to back us up on issues such as Freedom of expression and Women's rights, no leaders of even moderate Islam will stand up to the preaching of violence to the kulfaar's (non-believers), the treatment of women, homosexuals, for fear of their lives by 'devout' Muslims. That is a huge problem for Islam. If they want to join the 21st century of civilization, they need to stop their medieval practices. I think most of us can agree on that. But, we would surely offend devout Muslims to the point where I would be getting death threats for even voicing my opinion on this, ESPECIALLY being a woman not wearing a hijab.

Thing is, if people wouldn't worry so much about what 'team' they're on and focus more that we are all in it together, the world might be a better place. Can this happen? I doubt it in our lifetimes, but it worries me if we, as a human race, can make it to the next level of evolution, or the next 100-200 years due to these deep rooted belief systems.

“think for yourself”

Since: Aug 08

GR

#93 Sep 16, 2010
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
Something to ponder...
Since followers of any religion do so out of faith, i.e. belief without proof, this implies the follower is left to create the deity/god in the image of their choosing...ever see someone worship a god they didn't like?
Of course not.
Religion is projection, a quirk of human psychology.
That being said, you may never obtain the peace amoungst humans you and I and many others desire...
Well, after studying the origins of religions and ancient religions, a fascination of mine, archeology will show you that the dieties back then were mostly the sun and women (fertility). It was imperative to be fertile and bear children and to spread our genes and family lines. Then you will find pictures of the sun. Then the sun had a face, then the sun had a face and body, then the stories came along. In Mesopotamia, there are stories of the "Flood" you hear in the three religions we are talking about. The Epic of Gilgamesh. It even goes so far as the dove. Other stories that are found in the Bible are also found in Mesopotamia thousands of years before the writing of the Bible, probably passed on from generation to generation by word of mouth. Convincing a believer of this? Don't get your hopes up. They would not like to hear their diety is based upon sun worship, to the point where the stories are almost exactly alike, only names have changed, from the virgin birth, to the resurrection. As I said before, and people did not like it, In the beginning, man created God...in his own image.

“think for yourself”

Since: Aug 08

GR

#94 Sep 16, 2010
MIbowhunter wrote:
<quoted text>It seems to me that it's not religion that divides us and breaks the peace, but rather we are acting exactly as nature has designed ALL animals to act. The strong people will always prey upon the weak. People will always covet the possessions and status (territory/mates/pecking order position) of others and try to find ways to take it. People will always want the the most while investing the least. People will let color be used as a determining factor for socialization. When push comes to shove people will value and place more importance on their own and their families survival than the survival of non family.
The fact is, that you could substitute the word "animals" for the word "people" in my above post and it be just as accurate.
Could we evolve and get away from these behaviors? Maybe, but that kind of natural evolution will take a thousand lifetimes, but maybe just maybe, embracing religion will give us the ability to get us there a heck of a lot quicker.
that's my 2 cents anyway.
I like the first paragraph. I do agree with a lot of what you say here. We are in fact mammals, just the most intelligent animals.

Thing is, if we make it a couple more hundred years, we will understand the mechanism in the brain that controls these impulses. Religions and thoughts will be down to a science. It could possibly even be looked upon as a mental condition. With the way technology and science is advancing these days, we will have the answers for these questions in a few hundred years.....if we make it that long. We will be looked at like we look at the ancient Egyptians.

Since: Apr 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#95 Sep 16, 2010
Arctic I've considered the age of the faiths as well and hope they grow up quick. And yes, the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity are no less evil. The difference, however, is that those were not mandated by the new testament. They were brought about by greedy men in a violent culture bent on conquest just as the Muslims they were fighting were bent on conquest.
In the Qur'an, however, believers are called to try to convert the people of the book and the people of the covenant and if this is unsuccessful then they are told to conquer them or kill them.

There are violent random nutbag Christians but the most the New Testament tells us to do, I believe, is not invite people who teach a false god into our homes and not worship with people who refuse to turn from sinful ways. Huge difference there.

And, to all of you who ridicule Christians because we believe ours is the one true way to salvation...it's called "faith" for a reason. Duh! At least I'm not going to hunt any of you down and kill you because you insulted my God or refuse to convert to my beliefs.

Since: Apr 08

Grand Rapids, MI

#96 Sep 16, 2010
MIbowhunter wrote:
<quoted text>It seems to me that it's not religion that divides us and breaks the peace, but rather we are acting exactly as nature has designed ALL animals to act. The strong people will always prey upon the weak. People will always covet the possessions and status (territory/mates/pecking order position) of others and try to find ways to take it. People will always want the the most while investing the least. People will let color be used as a determining factor for socialization. When push comes to shove people will value and place more importance on their own and their families survival than the survival of non family.

that's my 2 cents anyway.
I disagree. Not all people. Not all Muslims, not all Christians. Because there are greedy, power hungry, evil, selfish people in the world doesn't mean that people cannot live in a more honorable way. I look for the good.

“think for yourself”

Since: Aug 08

GR

#97 Sep 16, 2010
Mr Wiggley wrote:
<quoted text>
Something to ponder...
Since followers of any religion do so out of faith, i.e. belief without proof, this implies the follower is left to create the deity/god in the image of their choosing...ever see someone worship a god they didn't like?
Of course not.
Religion is projection, a quirk of human psychology.
That being said, you may never obtain the peace amoungst humans you and I and many others desire...
Another thing to ponder...

It seems environment has a lot to do with what religion one has. Where AND when a person is born. Usually, and let me emphasize usually, because it is not always the case, whatever religion a parent has, they carry it on to their children and the child grows and stays in that religion. I know there are those that question their faith, but even then, they tend to stay in the faith they were raised with.(But not always. I know there are exceptions to the rule) If you were raised in Ancient Greece, you would more than likely worship Zeus. If you were raised in America, the majority of people would be raised in some form of Christianity, and the same with Muslim countries. Even the more progressive Muslim countries still stick with their version of God, while not practicing the more fundamentalist Islam.

So, is religion a product of environment? If children were not taught at such a young age to embrace their parents religion, would they end up embracing that religion in adult years? Or would they embrace religion at all if it were not engrained in children at birth and their early years?

“Knocking at your Door”

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#98 Sep 16, 2010
Amazarak wrote:
<quoted text>
Another thing to ponder...
It seems environment has a lot to do with what religion one has. Where AND when a person is born. Usually, and let me emphasize usually, because it is not always the case, whatever religion a parent has, they carry it on to their children and the child grows and stays in that religion. I know there are those that question their faith, but even then, they tend to stay in the faith they were raised with.(But not always. I know there are exceptions to the rule) If you were raised in Ancient Greece, you would more than likely worship Zeus. If you were raised in America, the majority of people would be raised in some form of Christianity, and the same with Muslim countries. Even the more progressive Muslim countries still stick with their version of God, while not practicing the more fundamentalist Islam.
So, is religion a product of environment? If children were not taught at such a young age to embrace their parents religion, would they end up embracing that religion in adult years? Or would they embrace religion at all if it were not engrained in children at birth and their early years?
But what about children that were taught at such a young age NOT to embrace religion? Would they embrace that in their adult years?

Does your family go to church or practice any type of religion?

“think for yourself”

Since: Aug 08

GR

#99 Sep 16, 2010
Grim2010 wrote:
<quoted text>
But what about children that were taught at such a young age NOT to embrace religion? Would they embrace that in their adult years?
Does your family go to church or practice any type of religion?
Actually, no, we do not attend any sort of church or practice religion. I have educated them about religion, read them the stories, taught them of other religions in the world. I have always given them the choice to believe or not believe, not limiting them to any one religion. My two oldest do not believe. My younger ones, exposed more to religions, especially my youngest, have lots of questions. My youngest was in a program at school for reading help by a local church. While they have said they will not bring God into the curriculum, they have. It wasn't until then that he has had many sleepless nights worrying about where he will go when he dies, or me. I simply try to explain that everyone has their own belief on what happens. I explain all the different outcomes and belief systems, and try to tell him he goes to wherever he wants to go, that no one really knows and to try not to worry so much. Being 9 (7 at the time) it is hard to explain it to him to where he will understand.

They know I do not believe, but they also know it is completely up to them if they choose to believe or not believe. I just try to educate them of all the other options they have. I wonder why religious families do not expose their children to other religions other than their own? Maybe some have, I am not sure. Have you?
Flawed

Sandusky, OH

#100 Sep 16, 2010
Amazarak wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, no, we do not attend any sort of church or practice religion. I have educated them about religion, read them the stories, taught them of other religions in the world. I have always given them the choice to believe or not believe, not limiting them to any one religion. My two oldest do not believe. My younger ones, exposed more to religions, especially my youngest, have lots of questions. My youngest was in a program at school for reading help by a local church. While they have said they will not bring God into the curriculum, they have. It wasn't until then that he has had many sleepless nights worrying about where he will go when he dies, or me. I simply try to explain that everyone has their own belief on what happens. I explain all the different outcomes and belief systems, and try to tell him he goes to wherever he wants to go, that no one really knows and to try not to worry so much. Being 9 (7 at the time) it is hard to explain it to him to where he will understand.
They know I do not believe, but they also know it is completely up to them if they choose to believe or not believe. I just try to educate them of all the other options they have. I wonder why religious families do not expose their children to other religions other than their own? Maybe some have, I am not sure. Have you?
I wonder if they also know how you belittle those who believe? I wonder if they know how your partner treats those who believe? Seeing the way you both act towards those who do believe, I would not expect your children to express a belief to you. I know I would hate for my parents to think of me as a mindless supersticious lemming who cannot think for myself. To you, and others here on this forum, believing in the "fictional" God is the same as believing in the tooth-fairy or easter bunny.

“Knocking at your Door”

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#101 Sep 16, 2010
Amazarak wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, no, we do not attend any sort of church or practice religion. I have educated them about religion, read them the stories, taught them of other religions in the world. I have always given them the choice to believe or not believe, not limiting them to any one religion. My two oldest do not believe. My younger ones, exposed more to religions, especially my youngest, have lots of questions. My youngest was in a program at school for reading help by a local church. While they have said they will not bring God into the curriculum, they have. It wasn't until then that he has had many sleepless nights worrying about where he will go when he dies, or me. I simply try to explain that everyone has their own belief on what happens. I explain all the different outcomes and belief systems, and try to tell him he goes to wherever he wants to go, that no one really knows and to try not to worry so much. Being 9 (7 at the time) it is hard to explain it to him to where he will understand.
They know I do not believe, but they also know it is completely up to them if they choose to believe or not believe. I just try to educate them of all the other options they have. I wonder why religious families do not expose their children to other religions other than their own? Maybe some have, I am not sure. Have you?
You say you have given them a choice. So if they choose at some point to become a Christian, marry a Christian and raise their family in the church and have their children baptized in the church you wouldn't have a problem with that? You would be supportive of your child’s new life style and attend all functions to do with his/her family at a church?

Just one more questions. What if your youngest child wanted to become a Christian and asked you to pray with him at bedtime or before a meal. Would you do that?

I think the way you believe has every thing to do with the way your children believe.

Sure I have discussed other religions with my kids and I think most people have.

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