2nd Amendment individual right or a collective right?

Posted in the Grand Portage Forum

“GiveMe Liberty or GiveMe Death”

Since: Jun 13

Land of Liberty

#1 Sep 12, 2013
So with the rise of godless liberalism (in the start of the 20th century) came the train of thought that the 2nd amendment may not actually confer people the right to own guns. There are 3 models on this:

#1:"states' rights" or "collective right": Right of each state to arm its militia. The individual has no rights..... a.k.a. the communist model

#2:"sophisticated collective right model": Some limited individual right. However, this individual right could only be exercised by actively participating members of a functioning, organized state militia....... the socialist model, the conditioning of the 2nd amendment with being part of a militia still continues to this day :(

#3:"standard model": personal right of individuals to keep and bear arms. The constitution, individual rights, freedom, liberty, the american way :)

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-So the 2 commie models the arguement was based on the opening phrase being considered essential as a pre-condition for the main clause. The idea was that this style of grammar was common during the time of writing. No evidence has been produced. Shame on them

-The American "standard model" the opening phrase is believed to be prefatory or amplifying to the operative clause. The opening phrase was meant as a non-exclusive example—one of many reasons for the amendment. This is the current model in use, even by the most radical of leftist states. Because this interpretation is consistent with the position that the Second Amendment protects a modified individual right, may liberals have used this to argue just how "modified."

----Case Law

-United States v. Emerson (2001), District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), and McDonald v. Chicago (2010)... All these cases upheld the standard model.

-One point that was made (quoting from the supreme court ruling), "the six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “Nowhere else in the Constitution does a “right” attributed to “the people” refer to anything other than an individual right. What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset.." (like say a militia)"This contrasts markedly with the phrase “the militia” in the prefatory clause. As we will describe below, the “militia” in colonial America consisted of a subset of “the people”— those who were male, able bodied, and within a certain age range. Reading the Second Amendment as protecting only the right to “keep and bear Arms” in an organized militia therefore fits poorly with the operative clause’s description of the holder of that right as “the people”." (On a side note, sounds like the liberals don't want females to own guns, ha!)

----------So why are we still fighting this today? Let me know your thoughts? Does this information help?

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Wade Gustafson

Saint Paul, MN

#2 Sep 12, 2013
"So why are we still fighting this today? Let me know your thoughts? Does this information help?"

We are not still fighting this. See the link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Col...

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Since: Sep 11

Rogers, MN

#3 Sep 13, 2013
Wade Gustafson wrote:
"So why are we still fighting this today? Let me know your thoughts? Does this information help?"
We are not still fighting this. See the link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Col...
Unfortunately, there are still those who do not accept these decisions. It is still possible that another Columbine or Sandy Hook type incident or two will prompt attempts to repeal the 2nd amendment. It will probably not work, but some will probably try.
There is a reason the founders made it quite difficult to drastically modify the constitution.
Wade Gustafson

Saint Paul, MN

#4 Sep 13, 2013
cantmakeitup wrote:
<quoted text>
Unfortunately, there are still those who do not accept these decisions. It is still possible that another Columbine or Sandy Hook type incident or two will prompt attempts to repeal the 2nd amendment. It will probably not work, but some will probably try.
There is a reason the founders made it quite difficult to drastically modify the constitution.
I seriously doubt that any attempt to repeal the 2nd Amendment will happen any time soon, or for that matter in the next 10 years. It would cost too much political capital.
ist

United States

#9 Sep 13, 2013
I wonder how suspicious our founding fathers would be of anyone trying to keep Americans from defending themselves?

Anyone have any idea how many in the Continental Congress voted or lobbied against this amendment? What were their objections? That might help shed some light on the original intent of the idea.

There has to have been a book published on this.

“We have 545 traitors.”

Since: May 11

Parts Unknown

#10 Sep 13, 2013
ist wrote:
I wonder how suspicious our founding fathers would be of anyone trying to keep Americans from defending themselves?
Anyone have any idea how many in the Continental Congress voted or lobbied against this amendment? What were their objections? That might help shed some light on the original intent of the idea.
There has to have been a book published on this.
It's not a book, but

http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/89va...

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