Is health care a fundamental right?

Posted in the Gilbert Forum

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Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#1 Dec 4, 2012
Why, or why not?

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#2 Dec 4, 2012
Oh, and GS...remember your word to TM21...
GodSmacked wrote:
<quoted text>
If I am bothering her directly then I will stop. I do not anyway want to disrespect the mods however Cookie refuse to leave me along and continuously posts to me and about me. Posting one lie after another. What I have been posted is factual and what happen to me with my IP address and the employer thing I read about.
Don't disrespect the mods.
1 post removed
Yes

Prestonsburg, KY

#4 Dec 4, 2012
Yes, I believe access to affordable health care is a right all American's should have. Good health is a basic need and having part of the population go without the access hurts and costs the entire community.

And I did not say the health care should be free. Everyone needs to have a financial stake in the process including the beneficiaries.

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#5 Dec 4, 2012
Yes wrote:
Yes, I believe access to affordable health care is a right all American's should have. Good health is a basic need and having part of the population go without the access hurts and costs the entire community.
And I did not say the health care should be free. Everyone needs to have a financial stake in the process including the beneficiaries.
If they can pay, right? What is our obligation to those who are disabled and can't work? Or to those for whom there are no jobs and can't get money?

Do we as a nation believe good health is a right for everyone?

“The Topix Legend of GS!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#6 Dec 4, 2012
No it is not a fundamental right at all and no one should ever think it is because we are not a socialistic country.

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#7 Dec 4, 2012
Health care costs in Europe, where many have universal health care for everyone, is a LOT cheaper than the costs of health care in the US. For one, they don't make profits off sick people as the US system does. Secondly, they do much more in preventive health care; empahsize exercise over pills, weight loss over gaining weight to get more diseases to profit from.

Our nation needs to cut back on health care costs. It would appear as though universal health care would benefit us greatly. It would also extend our lives to those of the people in Europe who currently out live us.

“The Topix Legend of GS!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#8 Dec 4, 2012
There are a few facts about universal health care in Europe that it's promoters don't talk about.

The average wait time for surgery is significantly longer then in the US. The doctor that sees 40 patients a week and the one that sees 80 a week get paid the same.At the end of the year, when money is tight, care is reduced.

Most of the medication comes from the United States. European drug makers don't have the incentive much less the funds to pay the enormous costs of developing, testing and getting a drug approved. There's no way to recover the cost.

It's amazing how many foreign doctors are in the United States. Much of it is due to the poor pay in nations with socialized medical care.

Take assisted suicide. "over the past 20 years, Dutch euthanasia practice has ultimately given doctors, not patients, more and more power. The question of whether a patient should live or die is often decided exclusively by a doctor or a team of physicians."
. Jochemsen, trans., "Report of the Royal Dutch Society of Medicine on 'Life-Terminating Actions with Incompetent Patients, Part 1: Severely Handicapped Newborns.'" Issues in Law & Medicine, vol. 7, no.3 (1991), p. 366.

"what the rest of the world refers to as non-voluntary or involuntary euthanasia, the killing of a patient without the patient's knowledge or consent. The Dutch call this "life-terminating treatment."

http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/hol...

Does it sound as the medical care is being rationed? Now consider Sweden:

For an example of wait time consider

"Görann Persson had to wait eight months during 2003 and 2004 for a hip replacement operation.... As a result, Persson walked with a limp, reportedly used strong pain medication and had to reduce his workload What made Persson unique was not his wait for hip surgery. Despite the government promise that no one should have to wait more than three months for surgery, 60 percent of hip replacement patients waited longer than three months in 2003 (see Figure 2).21 Rather, Persson stood out because he was Prime Minister of Sweden at the time."

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_H... have always been an issue. Strangly, Sweden has moved to a more "American model"

"Sweden has had to deal with the problem of ever-growing health care expenses causing a strain on government budgets. It has dealt with this problem by rationing health care - instituting waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery."

"Stockholm County encouraged doctors, nurses and private companies to take over the operation of primary health care centers. Over 60 percent of primary care centers were run privately by 2002. Costs declined, particularly for laboratory services, which dropped by 30 percent. "

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_H...

"Sweden's health care system offers two lessons for the policymakers of the United States. The first is that a single-payer system is not the answer to the problems faced as Americans. Sweden's system does not hold down costs and results in rationing of care. The second lesson is that market-oriented reforms must permit the market to work. Specifically, government should not protect health care providers that fail to provide patients with a quality service from going out of business."

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_H...

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#9 Dec 5, 2012
GodSmacked wrote:
There are a few facts about universal health care in Europe that it's promoters don't talk about.
The average wait time for surgery is significantly longer then in the US. The doctor that sees 40 patients a week and the one that sees 80 a week get paid the same.At the end of the year, when money is tight, care is reduced.
Most of the medication comes from the United States. European drug makers don't have the incentive much less the funds to pay the enormous costs of developing, testing and getting a drug approved. There's no way to recover the cost.
It's amazing how many foreign doctors are in the United States. Much of it is due to the poor pay in nations with socialized medical care.
Take assisted suicide. "over the past 20 years, Dutch euthanasia practice has ultimately given doctors, not patients, more and more power. The question of whether a patient should live or die is often decided exclusively by a doctor or a team of physicians."
. Jochemsen, trans., "Report of the Royal Dutch Society of Medicine on 'Life-Terminating Actions with Incompetent Patients, Part 1: Severely Handicapped Newborns.'" Issues in Law & Medicine, vol. 7, no.3 (1991), p. 366.
"what the rest of the world refers to as non-voluntary or involuntary euthanasia, the killing of a patient without the patient's knowledge or consent. The Dutch call this "life-terminating treatment."
http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/hol...
Does it sound as the medical care is being rationed? Now consider Sweden:
For an example of wait time consider
"Görann Persson had to wait eight months during 2003 and 2004 for a hip replacement operation.... As a result, Persson walked with a limp, reportedly used strong pain medication and had to reduce his workload What made Persson unique was not his wait for hip surgery. Despite the government promise that no one should have to wait more than three months for surgery, 60 percent of hip replacement patients waited longer than three months in 2003 (see Figure 2).21 Rather, Persson stood out because he was Prime Minister of Sweden at the time."
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_H... have always been an issue. Strangly, Sweden has moved to a more "American model"
"Sweden has had to deal with the problem of ever-growing health care expenses causing a strain on government budgets. It has dealt with this problem by rationing health care - instituting waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery."
"Stockholm County encouraged doctors, nurses and private companies to take over the operation of primary health care centers. Over 60 percent of primary care centers were run privately by 2002. Costs declined, particularly for laboratory services, which dropped by 30 percent. "
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_H...
"Sweden's health care system offers two lessons for the policymakers of the United States. The first is that a single-payer system is not the answer to the problems faced as Americans. Sweden's system does not hold down costs and results in rationing of care. The second lesson is that market-oriented reforms must permit the market to work. Specifically, government should not protect health care providers that fail to provide patients with a quality service from going out of business."
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA555_Sweden_H...
You say health care in Europe..and then quote from Sweden...you really are very bad at geography.

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#10 Dec 5, 2012
France IS in Europe

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2...

The way healthcare works in France, basically, as I understand it from living here (and I may be wrong about this because it gives me migraines), is that you get insurance through your employer which they deduct from their taxes. You can also buy it on the market (and don't deduct it from your taxes). If you can't get insurance, the government will pay for your treatment in a system similar to (I think?) Medicaid, ie you go to the doctor or the hospital you want, and the government will pay for it in a stingy way that incentivizes you to not want to rely on the government too much but still ensures no one is left to die on the streets. French doctors frequently grumble about CMU reimbursement rates as American ones do Medicaid/Medicare rates. Conversely, if you have a job with coverage, you can buy additional coverage and/or services out of pocket.

----------

Apparently, you don't understand Universal Health care, either.

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#11 Dec 5, 2012
http://www.businessinsider.com/best-healthcar...

The results became notorious — the US healthcare system came in 15th in overall performance, and first in overall expenditure per capita. That result meant that its overall ranking was 37th.

The results have long been debated, with critics arguing that the data was out-of-date, incomplete, and that factors such as literacy and life expectancy were over-weighted.

So controversial were the results that the WHO declined to rank countries in their World Health Report 2010, but the debate has raged on. In that same year, a report from the Commonwealth Fund ranked seven developed countries on their health care performance — the US came dead last.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/best-healthcar...

Our for-profit limited for the rich health care is not working...and it's dragging down our debt. It needs to be available for all, provided through employers and supplemented by the government. NO one is born NOT deserving health care.

“The Topix Legend of GS!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#12 Dec 5, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
You say health care in Europe..and then quote from Sweden...you really are very bad at geography.
It proves my case that is what you have an issue with Cookie. It proves making a health care a fundamental right will bankrupt any country and that is what the thread you created is about. Now spin spin spin proving me right.
1 post removed

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#14 Dec 5, 2012
Yes wrote:
Yes, I believe access to affordable health care is a right all American's should have. Good health is a basic need and having part of the population go without the access hurts and costs the entire community.
And I did not say the health care should be free. Everyone needs to have a financial stake in the process including the beneficiaries.
And those who can't afford to pay for healthcare? Is it right that Congress gets health care, in whatever need including hearing, dental, eyes, for them and their ENTIRE family for LIFE and some person whose job went overseas under republican tax breaks has to go without?

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#15 Dec 5, 2012
No Religion wrote:
<quoted text>
Tip of the proverbial iceberg. LOL
+++
I know.....oh, well, not everyone has a college education under their belts. And that's okay. It doesn't matter. It's just those who claim to have a college education that then flaunt their ignorance that are only hurting themselves.
Cardinal

Prestonsburg, KY

#16 Dec 5, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
If they can pay, right? What is our obligation to those who are disabled and can't work? Or to those for whom there are no jobs and can't get money?
Do we as a nation believe good health is a right for everyone?
No, that is not what I said. I said everyone needs to have a financial stake in some form or another for their own health care.

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#17 Dec 5, 2012
Cardinal wrote:
<quoted text>
No, that is not what I said. I said everyone needs to have a financial stake in some form or another for their own health care.
So, what does that mean, "financial stake"? That you only get health care if you can pay for it?

“The Topix Legend of GS!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#18 Dec 5, 2012
Cardinal wrote:
<quoted text>
No, that is not what I said. I said everyone needs to have a financial stake in some form or another for their own health care.
I agree however the liberals want to give everything away for free which is ludicrous. I will not live to see it but you may when citizens are paying 75 percent tax in for all this free stuff.

“The Topix Legend of GS!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#19 Dec 5, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
You say health care in Europe..and then quote from Sweden...you really are very bad at geography.
Sweden is a part of Europe and a part of the EU.

“The Topix Legend of GS!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#20 Dec 5, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
So, what does that mean, "financial stake"? That you only get health care if you can pay for it?
That is the way it needs to be. Nothing is free.

“The Topix Legend of GS!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#21 Dec 5, 2012
No Religion wrote:
<quoted text>
Tip of the proverbial iceberg. LOL
+++
I see you lack a formal education as well. Sweden is part of the EU and a part of Europe.

“The Topix Legend of GS!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#22 Dec 5, 2012
Sweden ( officially the Kingdom of Sweden (Swedish: About this sound Konungariket Sverige is a Scandinavian country in Northern Europe. Sweden borders Norway and Finland, and is connected to Denmark by a bridge-tunnel across the Řresund.

Now that I have educated the uneducated we can move on with this thread. Sweeden is in Northern Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden

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