The fine lines of polling

Full story: Evening Sun 73
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Danielle

Mifflintown, PA

#1 Mar 26, 2010
Susan Star Paddock refutes this editorial and all others that with fair and sound reasoning choose to disagree with her moral stand against legal gaming locally.
Doc

Shippensburg, PA

#2 Mar 26, 2010
The Evening Sun has given new meaning to the old word BUY US!!
Dick Hurtz

Gettysburg, PA

#3 Mar 27, 2010
How did Adams County ever survive before Susan Star Paddock rose to save us all. In the last month she has stated the attorneys general of gaming counties are deceiving the people on crime statistics, the Governor is misinformed as to a location of a proposed gaming facility, one of the top pollsters in the country conducted a flawd and biased poll of Adams County residents, a major tour operator in Gettysburg who has partnered with David LeVan is making a big mistake, the new park superintendent is misinformed and his comments taken out of context in saying a casino would have "No Impact" on the park. With her amazing revelations comes word she is now working on disproving there are any people capable of making decisions in your "best interest" in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. And..any further comments, surveys, opinions voiced by any authoritative figures "must" be approved by her and No Casino Gettysburg before release. "Hail To The Queen"
ToughLove1

Australia

#4 Mar 27, 2010
Dick Hurtz, that is utter rubbish that you have written here, about Susan Star Paddock. You have twisted some issues that were discussed, out of all context, you have stated other issues as if they were untrue, when in fact the claim made by Susan was accurate, you have embroidered and added untruthfully to other claims from what I have read...and then you make wild assumptions, all just to make your annihilation of Susan Star Paddock 'sound good'.

If you and your ilk want a casino that will reliably harm around 10,000 people all because around 1440 people might gamble irresponsibly even on slots, let alone on tables...and if you want to see Gettysburg's national and international reputation tarnished immeasurably by a casino in a heritage tourist area...so be it...but at least do it truthfully.
Dick Hurtz

Gettysburg, PA

#5 Mar 27, 2010
ToughLove1 wrote:
Dick Hurtz, that is utter rubbish that you have written here, about Susan Star Paddock. You have twisted some issues that were discussed, out of all context, you have stated other issues as if they were untrue, when in fact the claim made by Susan was accurate, you have embroidered and added untruthfully to other claims from what I have read...and then you make wild assumptions, all just to make your annihilation of Susan Star Paddock 'sound good'.
If you and your ilk want a casino that will reliably harm around 10,000 people all because around 1440 people might gamble irresponsibly even on slots, let alone on tables...and if you want to see Gettysburg's national and international reputation tarnished immeasurably by a casino in a heritage tourist area...so be it...but at least do it truthfully.
Truth....Truth !!.... You and your "ilk" can't handle the truth ! There are no wild assumptions written here. I say to you....and Paddock... Cut the "spin"..You have no facts to back up your off the wall allegations. And when people do speak "the truth", you and your "ilk" can't handle it. Who are the "10,000 people who will reliable be harmed" . It's that kind of crap you throw out there that just blows any credibility you might have... Give it up !
Willie Nailor

Gettysburg, PA

#6 Mar 27, 2010
ToughLove1 wrote:
Dick Hurtz, that is utter rubbish that you have written here, about Susan Star Paddock. You have twisted some issues that were discussed, out of all context, you have stated other issues as if they were untrue, when in fact the claim made by Susan was accurate, you have embroidered and added untruthfully to other claims from what I have read...and then you make wild assumptions, all just to make your annihilation of Susan Star Paddock 'sound good'.
If you and your ilk want a casino that will reliably harm around 10,000 people all because around 1440 people might gamble irresponsibly even on slots, let alone on tables...and if you want to see Gettysburg's national and international reputation tarnished immeasurably by a casino in a heritage tourist area...so be it...but at least do it truthfully.
Yo tough love....bust a Fosters and chill..Hurtz is only askin for some facts to back up your claims. The way I see it most of the stuff this Paddock lady states is fact is old and irrelevent like you staying stuff like 10000 people are going to be harmed. Where do you get that stuff, and if you are in Australia what gives you the right to tell people here how to run our business. You wanna pay my tax bill ? Post yore address and I'll mail it to you. The stuff I read from that no casino group is ridiculous like that woman Violet.. She don't know squat about gettysburg and how can she compare a town in Misssipi to gettysburg when we don't even have a casino. I tell her the same thing i tell you you guys don't know squat about gettysburg.
Hoping for success

Olyphant, PA

#7 Mar 27, 2010
Willie Nailor wrote:
<quoted text>
Yo tough love....bust a Fosters and chill..Hurtz is only askin for some facts to back up your claims. The way I see it most of the stuff this Paddock lady states is fact is old and irrelevent like you staying stuff like 10000 people are going to be harmed. Where do you get that stuff, and if you are in Australia what gives you the right to tell people here how to run our business. You wanna pay my tax bill ? Post yore address and I'll mail it to you. The stuff I read from that no casino group is ridiculous like that woman Violet.. She don't know squat about gettysburg and how can she compare a town in Mississippi to gettysburg when we don't even have a casino. I tell her the same thing i tell you you guys don't know squat about gettysburg.
To SSP, Violet, Willie and others:

Do you want to know someone that knows a GREAT DEAL about GETTYSBURG?

Ken Rohrbaugh ~ the same guy that just teamed up with Dave LeVan.
Mr. Rohrbaugh owns about half the town - his very existence DEPENDS on Gettysburg Tourism. This man is an expert on what heritage tourists do in Gettysburg. Frankly, his credentials far exceed Ms. Clark's online degree.
Yet - he supports the Mason Dixon Resort and Casino. No doubt he will TESTIFY at the gaming hearings.

Spin that NCG and SSP!
ToughLove1

Australia

#8 Mar 27, 2010
Dick Hurtz and Willie Nailor:

Dick Hurtz and Willie Nailor:

Here is the research. It is Australian and New Zealand sourced, but we have similar gambling environments and slot machines to the US. Similar findings have been found for you anyway by Kindt and other economists etc in the Illinois Uni. research team.

Please NOTE. The research only applies to slot machine (poker machine) ADDICTS.

It is possible to work out the additional impacts of gambling 'overspenders' since they are 2-3 times the number of pathological or designated 'problem gamblers'.

Every overspending gambler harms 7 people.

Table game addicts were not measured in the study so the real picture of addiction in the casino could be even WORSE than estimated.

"The Problem Gambling Foundation says all Councils should consider new research which has found that there is almost one new problem gambler for each additional pokie machine (electronic gaming machine) in a community.

The research was conducted by Professor Max Abbott, Director of AUT University's Gambling and Addictions Research Centre, Dr Judith Stubbs from the University of NSW, City Futures, Sydney, Australia and John Storer from Judith Stubbs and Associates, Australia. Together they did a meta-analysis of the 34 studies conducted in Australia and New Zealand, thus providing the most complete study of gambling prevalence in Australasia to date.

The findings were clear - every additional pokie machine in a community results in .8 new problem gamblers. Further, there is no evidence that this plateaus."
www.gamblingwatch.org.nz

So...
600 slots = 480 new addicts.
480 x 3 = 1440 of addicts and 'overspenders'
1440 x 7 = 10080 people harmed.

If you accept that only 2 'overspenders'= 1 addict...then the figures are 6,720 people harmed.

However, people are known to lie and under-estimate their addiction...so that lower figure is very likely to be wrong. Most people apply the 'times 3' rule.

Plus.... table games addicts are not included in these slots figures....so I just chose the 'times 3' rule and did not increase it for table games addicts.
ToughLove1

Australia

#9 Mar 27, 2010
Willie Nailor;

I am not telling you how to run your business, as you put it...I am merely providing information that has been reliably researched and is relevant.

It is up to you to accept it..or reject it.

I guess that you will be ready to defend your decision if ever you must explain why your local area ever has a huge increase in numbers of casino gambling-harmed families? Just do not try to say you had no information given. You chose to ignore it. Others may listen.

YOU I suspect know little or nothing about casino gambling harm rates...in your own country or the world over, where it is very much a case of "same &%$@# just different shovel"! Otherwise we would not be discussing this. I would not need to convince you.

That is why you naively expect a casino to pay your taxes for you. Check out your other US states...it has not happened...but still you are hoping to rely upon casino gambling.

Violet Clark knows quite a lot about Gettysburg I think, however it is up to you if you want to make those claims. I cannot answer myself there, but I have seen Violet's work and it is impressive.

Where you are making your error is that you may know Gettysburg community, but you do not know so much about the casino gambling industry obviously...and you certainly do not seem to understand the impact of casino harms on your local community heritage and tourism profile.

I am suspicious of anybody who is so desperate as to not care whom he sees hurt...so long as somebody else pays his taxes for him. The fact that you live in the US does not change my opinion...I just feel sad for your neighbours.
Dick Hurtz

Gettysburg, PA

#10 Mar 27, 2010
ToughLove1 wrote:
Dick Hurtz and Willie Nailor:
Dick Hurtz and Willie Nailor:
Here is the research. It is Australian and New Zealand sourced, but we have similar gambling environments and slot machines to the US. Similar findings have been found for you anyway by Kindt and other economists etc in the Illinois Uni. research team.
Please NOTE. The research only applies to slot machine (poker machine) ADDICTS.
It is possible to work out the additional impacts of gambling 'overspenders' since they are 2-3 times the number of pathological or designated 'problem gamblers'.
Every overspending gambler harms 7 people.
Table game addicts were not measured in the study so the real picture of addiction in the casino could be even WORSE than estimated.
"The Problem Gambling Foundation says all Councils should consider new research which has found that there is almost one new problem gambler for each additional pokie machine (electronic gaming machine) in a community.
The research was conducted by Professor Max Abbott, Director of AUT University's Gambling and Addictions Research Centre, Dr Judith Stubbs from the University of NSW, City Futures, Sydney, Australia and John Storer from Judith Stubbs and Associates, Australia. Together they did a meta-analysis of the 34 studies conducted in Australia and New Zealand, thus providing the most complete study of gambling prevalence in Australasia to date.
The findings were clear - every additional pokie machine in a community results in .8 new problem gamblers. Further, there is no evidence that this plateaus."
www.gamblingwatch.org.nz
So...
600 slots = 480 new addicts.
480 x 3 = 1440 of addicts and 'overspenders'
1440 x 7 = 10080 people harmed.
If you accept that only 2 'overspenders'= 1 addict...then the figures are 6,720 people harmed.
However, people are known to lie and under-estimate their addiction...so that lower figure is very likely to be wrong. Most people apply the 'times 3' rule.
Plus.... table games addicts are not included in these slots figures....so I just chose the 'times 3' rule and did not increase it for table games addicts.
With all due respect ... Your environment is nothing like the United States. Your socio-economic issues reflect those of "your" country, not mine. So don't give me a handful of statistics based on a country 8000 miles away that got its roots as a penal colony. You, like the rest of the NCG crowd, try to pull this crap out of your rectums and sell it as fact... You deal with the issues that affect your country and we'll deal with ours.

“Gene Golden”

Since: Jan 08

Gettysburg PA

#11 Mar 27, 2010
I love numbers.
These are NOT made up, or some sort of formula.
They are last years earnings at Hollywood Casino:

BY THE NUMBERS
At Hollywood Casino:
Number of slot machines: 2,227
Amount bet through Feb. 10:$2,565,464,483
Amount paid to bettors through Feb. 10:$2,343,805,239
Tax dollars paid from machine play:$194,965,921
Free Action Club slot play:$24,693,322
Dining areas: 8
Number of parking spaces: 3,950
ToughLove1

Australia

#13 Mar 27, 2010
Dick Hurtz: You said:

"So don't give me a handful of statistics based on a country 8000 miles away that got its roots as a penal colony. "

Dick your supposed barrier to comparative 'analysis' here is as illogical as your other arguments. What differences the 'penal' roots of a country might make from 230 years ago, I would think is very irrelevant to the issues of casino gambling and the harmful effects of casino products upon societies, between countries.

Physical distance means little these days. You are creating obsolete boundaries as if they create huge sociological differences between our countries. Our similarities are the more far likely outcome.

The world-wide gambling industry uses and operates the same addictive machine products in the USA, Australia and many other countries and these cause the same harms to consumers everywhere, if the return to player odds, betting limits and machine speeds are similar. They are between the US and Australia.

We are all human, we all have children, we all have families, we all have jobs and lifestyle stresses, we all bleed the same way...and we all have exposure to slot machines...

That set of similarities is much more relevant to making any comparative world-wide casino gambling industry costs / benefits community analysis, than any artificial differences.

The only differences may be that right now the US is under extreme financial pressures with high unemployment, so the rate of anxiety-induced casino gambling addiction and thus harms to US consumers could be higher than the Australian rates I quoted. You also run 24/7 so chances for consumer loss are greater.

Sadly some of your politicians and citizens it would seem, are either so desperate for money or so misinformed that they are ignoring adverse world casino gambling reports, many would say arrogantly, desperately and irresponsibly.

Fine then Dick, please just ignore my information...but do not blame others for seeing a logical connection between a Gettysburg casino and family ills, poverty and crime increases, job losses and a drop in town heritage profile. Unlike you they do not attempt to create artifical and irrelevant barriers perhaps.
Dick Hurtz

Gettysburg, PA

#15 Mar 28, 2010
ToughLove1 wrote:
Dick Hurtz: You said:
"So don't give me a handful of statistics based on a country 8000 miles away that got its roots as a penal colony. "
Dick your supposed barrier to comparative 'analysis' here is as illogical as your other arguments. What differences the 'penal' roots of a country might make from 230 years ago, I would think is very irrelevant to the issues of casino gambling and the harmful effects of casino products upon societies, between countries.
Physical distance means little these days. You are creating obsolete boundaries as if they create huge sociological differences between our countries. Our similarities are the more far likely outcome.
The world-wide gambling industry uses and operates the same addictive machine products in the USA, Australia and many other countries and these cause the same harms to consumers everywhere, if the return to player odds, betting limits and machine speeds are similar. They are between the US and Australia.
We are all human, we all have children, we all have families, we all have jobs and lifestyle stresses, we all bleed the same way...and we all have exposure to slot machines...
That set of similarities is much more relevant to making any comparative world-wide casino gambling industry costs / benefits community analysis, than any artificial differences.
The only differences may be that right now the US is under extreme financial pressures with high unemployment, so the rate of anxiety-induced casino gambling addiction and thus harms to US consumers could be higher than the Australian rates I quoted. You also run 24/7 so chances for consumer loss are greater.
Sadly some of your politicians and citizens it would seem, are either so desperate for money or so misinformed that they are ignoring adverse world casino gambling reports, many would say arrogantly, desperately and irresponsibly.
Fine then Dick, please just ignore my information...but do not blame others for seeing a logical connection between a Gettysburg casino and family ills, poverty and crime increases, job losses and a drop in town heritage profile. Unlike you they do not attempt to create artifical and irrelevant barriers perhaps.
Again with all due respect, your country has a myriad of problems to deal with. Gambling may be one of them, but the situation with Aboriginal alcoholism is a major concern in Australia at this time. I'm sure the alcoholism is due to "comped" drinks in your casinos My point is again. You have issues to deal with in Australia, we have issues to deal with in America. You handle yours..we will handle ours.
ToughLove1

Australia

#16 Mar 28, 2010
Dick Hurtz:

You are entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to mine. You are on a world-accessible board and that gives anyone equal right to discuss the issues presented by the newspaper. Just do not read my posts then. End of story.

I can only deduce that you are not wanting to hear opposing comment made against a casino in Gettysburg, as it makes your job harder to get your spin across. The more people who know the truth about gambling harms, the worse it is for you. The gambling industry relies upon vague promises, fomenting of blind hopes...truth about gambling harms is an ugly inconvenience.

You can choose to hear what you like, but do not tell me that I have no right to speak...especially about a heritage 'risk' issue that IS a world-owned issue, as well as being nationally iconic and integral to the historical meaning of your country.

Incidentally, Aboriginal alcoholism has as much to do with this conversation as AIDS or heroin-smuggling.

Meanwhile people might reflect upon the fact that 600 slot machines in Gettysburg casino would most likely harm 10,080 people, including innocent people in your community...from those slots alone. Table game harms could add to that figure.

That rate of harm will definitely be evident and will tarnish the pure heritage image of Gettysburg as a memorial to those who lost fighting for freedom in the Civil War. Those casino-induced consumer harms cause casinos to be offensive to very many people.

“Gene Golden”

Since: Jan 08

Gettysburg PA

#17 Mar 28, 2010
ToughLove1,
I'm sure that your rambling posts are cathartic for you, and I hope this continuous journal is working to bring you health.

I also hope that those persons who are predisposed to addictive behavior will take heed, and at least be aware that they may fall prey to the sirens' song of the Casino when it materializes. You have made your point... repeatedly.

MOST people will NOT become "victims".
One of the strengths of "We the People" is that WE allow the majority to enjoy themselves - even if that behavior is destructive to the few who cannot behave properly and act responsibly.

In creating Man, even God gave us "Free Will".
Who are you to deny us the opportunity to exercise that right?

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#18 Mar 28, 2010
Gene Golden wrote:
ToughLove1,
I'm sure that your rambling posts are cathartic for you, and I hope this continuous journal is working to bring you health.
ROTFLMAO now that was funny!
ToughLove1

Australia

#19 Mar 28, 2010
Gene Golden:

What BS you speak. I am not talking of people who are predisposed to an addiction. I am talking about the people of Gettysburg local area who may well have their OWN lives wrecked by those who overspend upon slot machines especially. According to research they make up a goodly part of 10,080 people if 600 slot machines invade the area.

It might interest you to know that in a number of wide surveys in the US where casinos already operate...the MAJORITY of citizens do not approve of them and prefer them gone.

Why would that be Gene Golden?

WHY would this 'majority' be ignored?...by "WE the PEOPLE"?

Could it be that you are hiding things? Just telling the 'spin' until you get your 'drip feed tax line' hooked in? Could you be not telling the ful lstory? Or WHY would others who have now got casinos not all agreee with you? Aren't they "WE the PEOPLE"?

The difference with you no doubt Gene is, that YOU are a ruthless man with a private agenda to get out of paying your way. You do not care whose graves you walk on, to allow a smaller but significant number of people who will lose control of their own lives in the casino you encourage...to later cost YOU a lot more money than they are worth, to HARM IRREVOCABLY a whole heritage tourist area, to rape and tarnish a stable and productive community...AND to HARM other innocent people, because of that casino.

Your attempt to trivialise this issue is puerile.

As for your mate KURT/LogicPrevails also...the pro-gambling 'plant' it seems...between the two of you you are wasting time here.

GO FIND SOME MORE SUCKERS WHO THINK IT IS FINE TO GET SICK PEOPLE TO PAY YOUR TAXES FOR YOU, YOU WEAKLING.

I MEAN THE SICK GAMBLERS...AND THEN THE OTHER POOR INNOCENT DEVILS THAT THEY HURT...AND MAKE EVEN SICKER.

YOUR ARE IMMORAL GENE GOLDEN. PAY YOUR OWN WAY IN LIFE AND STOP CRAPPING ON ABOUT "WE THE PEOPLE"...AS IF YOU REALLY CARE?

NO... YOU WANT TO SPONGE OFF THEM.
Edd

Newville, PA

#20 Mar 29, 2010
The potential harm of casinos goes well beyond addiction. Consider this news article:

Dana Felts hit the jackpot Monday at Harrah's casino in Chester.

Hours later, the 25-year-old mother was lying dead in a pool of blood on her kitchen floor in Upper Chichester.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20...
Truth

Toms River, NJ

#21 Mar 29, 2010
Edd, other than her hitting a jackpot at a casino, which wasn't even the motive for the crime, what does this have to do with anything? Maybe things would have gone differently if she wasn't a heroin addict (dealer?) who associated with other ex felon heroin addicts.

Come on Edd. There's one mention of a casino in the article and the casino has absolutely nothing to do with the crime. if anything this is about the dangers of doing and dealing heroin.

Fail Edd. Again.
ToughLove1

Australia

#22 Mar 29, 2010
Truth:

I think that the point that Edd was making was that casinos, drug-dealing and violence are all linked rather closely, as they are with prostitution?

So that leads to the next question...based upon Edd's report alone..." Would you think that a casino near the battlefields will add a good aura to that area...or the wider residential areas?"

Thanks Edd...a most interesting post.

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