A lesson in perspective

The Nov. 5 opinion pages contained an interesting lesson in perspective. Glenn Garvin found fault with President Obama and the Democratic Party for what Garvin perceives as the failure of certain efforts to stimulate the economy in the year since Obama was elected.

[Doubting Thomas]

Thank you Louis, I feel the same way. To all those people who didn't vote, the next time this administration raises your property tax by double digit percentages. SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. THOSE OF US WHO TOOK THE TIME TO VOTE HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMPLAIN

[Bob the Bilderberg]

"Politicians, economists and historians will argue for years about what worked, what didn't and who was responsible for both. But, from where I sit, we're in much better shape today than we would otherwise have been without these efforts.
- J. M. Hamilton, St. Paul"

Hey J.M.

I don't know where you're sitting but it would be wrong.

Historically, recessions last between 6 and 12 months. They end when businesses start hiring again in response to demand in the marketplace, which snowballs into more consumer spending, which creates more jobs, etc. That's Econ 101.

This recession is going on 2 years old.

It has lasted that long only because government has intervened in this process which has resulted in a failed and counterproductive experiment.

Government's trillion dollar "solution" has interfered in the marketplace's natural course of events, which has prolonged the recession, exacerbated unemployment, and made matters worse as a result.

That seat of yours is obviously in a government cubicle somewhere.

[Gndydncr]

Bob the Bilderberg wrote:

"Politicians, economists and historians will argue for years about what worked, what didn't and who was responsible for both. But, from where I sit, we're in much better shape today than we would otherwise have been without these efforts.
- J. M. Hamilton, St. Paul"
Hey J.M.
I don't know where you're sitting but it would be wrong.
Historically, recessions last between 6 and 12 months. They end when businesses start hiring again in response to demand in the marketplace, which snowballs into more consumer spending, which creates more jobs, etc. That's Econ 101.
This recession is going on 2 years old.
It has lasted that long only because government has intervened in this process which has resulted in a failed and counterproductive experiment.
Government's trillion dollar "solution" has interfered in the marketplace's natural course of events, which has prolonged the recession, exacerbated unemployment, and made matters worse as a result.
That seat of yours is obviously in a government cubicle somewhere.

You are quite right, Bob the Bilderberg. Government cubicles are the only place where jobs are safe and wages are increasing. Consider them economic bunkers.

[WJH]

J.M. ok lets have an "honest" discussion on the Presidents performance so far.

January unemployment when Barack Obama is sworn in as President, 7.6%
http://www.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/...

October unemployment rate today 10.2%
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009/11/06/af...

With all the bashing of the Bush Administration on deficit spending, now the Obama Administration seems to think tripling it is just fine.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1231373753137...

That's why the Administration has to lie to us about jobs and blame others because they have no real ideas.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33522856/ns/busin...
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINI...

The truth is, the people that have expendable income are holding onto it very tight because they don't know what's coming. They do know that eventually the bill is coming and everyone will have to pay. Radical change is not what people want right now, they want stability more then anything.

[Gndydncr]

The IRV proponents argued that their method would encourage greater voter participation. Apparently, we were lied to again. Imagine that. According to the following link, Minneapolis had the fewest voters this years since 1902. I wonder how many eligible voters there were in 1902 compared to 2009? Unfortunately, these people will get a free pass and their blind followers will continue to trust them in the next go-around.

http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls/mes...

When will we ever learn?

[gzaiger]

Gndydncr - I know some people were thinking it would encourage turnout, but frankly, I don't care about turnout. If people are indifferent and not educated on the issues, I don't want them voting.

But I still support IRV because it gives the educated voter more of a voice. Many 3rd party candidates have great ideas, and I want to support them, but don't because I don't want an opponant I hate to win. This way those great ideas can get the votes they can't get now. I get to vote how I really want to vote, and thats all I care about. All the stupid people can stay home for all I care.

[WJH]

gzaiger wrote:

Gndydncr - I know some people were thinking it would encourage turnout, but frankly, I don't care about turnout. If people are indifferent and not educated on the issues, I don't want them voting.
But I still support IRV because it gives the educated voter more of a voice. Many 3rd party candidates have great ideas, and I want to support them, but don't because I don't want an opponant I hate to win. This way those great ideas can get the votes they can't get now. I get to vote how I really want to vote, and thats all I care about. All the stupid people can stay home for all I care.

"Gndydncr - I know some people were thinking it would encourage turnout, but frankly, I don't care about turnout. If people are indifferent and not educated on the issues, I don't want them voting."

Isn't that exactly what ACORN is doing? Herding masses of people into the voting booths simply to boost the lefts agenda.

[Mellers]

Gndydncr wrote:

The IRV proponents argued that their method would encourage greater voter participation. Apparently, we were lied to again. Imagine that. According to the following link, Minneapolis had the fewest voters this years since 1902. I wonder how many eligible voters there were in 1902 compared to 2009? Unfortunately, these people will get a free pass and their blind followers will continue to trust them in the next go-around.
http://forums.e-democracy.org/groups/mpls/mes...
When will we ever learn?

For the record, as an election judge I voted against IRV. It's only allowed (now) in 2 cities, so does that mean we voters go back and forth between voting methods/ballots? No thanks-the "previous" voting method wasn't that broken. It was fixable.

[Mellers]

WJH wrote:

<quoted text>
"Gndydncr - I know some people were thinking it would encourage turnout, but frankly, I don't care about turnout. If people are indifferent and not educated on the issues, I don't want them voting."
Isn't that exactly what ACORN is doing? Herding masses of people into the voting booths simply to boost the lefts agenda.

Wasn't gzaiger's position the opposite of the point you're making? Or said differently, don't you both agree, that getting more people to vote isn't the issue, but those who are educated about the issues, to get out and vote?

[WJH]

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
Wasn't gzaiger's position the opposite of the point you're making? Or said differently, don't you both agree, that getting more people to vote isn't the issue, but those who are educated about the issues, to get out and vote?

I'm probably more in line with gzaiger's position that high voter turn out is not always a good thing.
The goal should be educated voters at least making an informed decision on why and what their voting on.

While I wouldn't call these people stupid because I don't think they are. They tend to vote for personal benefits sometimes at the detriment of the city or the rest of the public.

Being an election Judge yourself, have you've heard from people that registering to vote was too difficult or so hard we needed to fund an organization like ACORN to register them?

How did we every do it on our own 30 years ago?

[Mellers]

WJH wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm probably more in line with gzaiger's position that high voter turn out is not always a good thing.
The goal should be educated voters at least making an informed decision on why and what their voting on.
While I wouldn't call these people stupid because I don't think they are. They tend to vote for personal benefits sometimes at the detriment of the city or the rest of the public.
Being an election Judge yourself, have you've heard from people that registering to vote was too difficult or so hard we needed to fund an organization like ACORN to register them?
How did we every do it on our own 30 years ago?

I have not heard of many who thought the current registration options in Minnesota were too difficult that they couldn't vote. Not many opinions in either the primaries or the general 2009 election, mind you, but even those turned away in November 2008 had ample opportunities to register to vote and chose to wait to the last minute to not find the right tools to vote (voucher, applicable utility bill, valid driver's license, etc).

I've never spoken in favor of Acorn, as far as I can remember. However, Acorn's actions aren't limited to the left-leaning groups of the world:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/u...

I was one years old 30 years ago. My parents worked hard and gave what they could when they could. Personally, I believe in personal responsibility and civic volunteerism, which is either considered a contradictory statement or a balance of both political parties.

[Gndydncr]

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
For the record, as an election judge I voted against IRV. It's only allowed (now) in 2 cities, so does that mean we voters go back and forth between voting methods/ballots? No thanks-the "previous" voting method wasn't that broken. It was fixable.

High fives to you, Mellers. Haven't heard from you for awhile. Hope everything is okay.

[Mellers]

Gndydncr wrote:

<quoted text>
High fives to you, Mellers. Haven't heard from you for awhile. Hope everything is okay.

Thank you, Gndydncr! I'm doing better than okay. Hard to find time to be on Topix, though I do miss it. I genuinely enjoyed discussions like this thread, and not so much, anymore, the nasty troll-bating debates that would become the norm. I'm also planning a celebration for 3 year anniversary of being in remission, and that's been fun, emotional, and a very positive endeavor to think of ways to thank many people who've helped me over the last 3 years.

I'm glad to see that you're still here. That means nearly 3 years of us exchanging posts, too. All is still well with you?

[Orig Bob now Sam]

Mell, just admit it Obama isn't what he said in the campaign!

GWB was not that bad after all.

==========

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
Thank you, Gndydncr! I'm doing better than okay. Hard to find time to be on Topix, though I do miss it. I genuinely enjoyed discussions like this thread, and not so much, anymore, the nasty troll-bating debates that would become the norm. I'm also planning a celebration for 3 year anniversary of being in remission, and that's been fun, emotional, and a very positive endeavor to think of ways to thank many people who've helped me over the last 3 years.
I'm glad to see that you're still here. That means nearly 3 years of us exchanging posts, too. All is still well with you?

[Former Ranger]

" if only we could engage in an honest and dispassionate public discussion." We've been trying to do that but then we're called astroturf, a mob or Nazi's.

[carp per day]

WJH wrote:

<quoted text>
"Gndydncr - I know some people were thinking it would encourage turnout, but frankly, I don't care about turnout. If people are indifferent and not educated on the issues, I don't want them voting."
Isn't that exactly what ACORN is doing? Herding masses of people into the voting booths simply to boost the lefts agenda.

just like lemmings to the sea.
and some will even follow with eyes wide open and a simle on their faces.

[Gndydncr]

Mellers wrote:

<quoted text>
Thank you, Gndydncr! I'm doing better than okay. Hard to find time to be on Topix, though I do miss it. I genuinely enjoyed discussions like this thread, and not so much, anymore, the nasty troll-bating debates that would become the norm. I'm also planning a celebration for 3 year anniversary of being in remission, and that's been fun, emotional, and a very positive endeavor to think of ways to thank many people who've helped me over the last 3 years.
I'm glad to see that you're still here. That means nearly 3 years of us exchanging posts, too. All is still well with you?

Yes it is, thank you. I just had my five-year check up and still cancer free as well. Ain't it great?

[Mellers]

Gndydncr wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes it is, thank you. I just had my five-year check up and still cancer free as well. Ain't it great?

I'm SO pleased to hear that. 3 years is wonderful, 5 years is beautiful. Congrats and may you stay in remission many times over.