Maple Heights man killed by Cleveland police

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xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#1 Dec 1, 2012
CLEVELAND– A regrettable situation: That’s how Cleveland’s police chief is describing a deadly police chase that left two people dead and a car riddled with bullets.

Friday afternoon, the investigation revealed that police cannot find a weapon in the car.
”I mean it’s just a tragedy and it’s very difficult. All night long I’m thinking why, why, why, why did this happen? We will find out why,” said Cleveland Police Chief Michael McGrath during a Friday evening news conference.

McGrath says investigators will get to the bottom of Thursday night’s deadly police chase and shooting. Police say one of the people is identified as Timothy Ray Russell, 43, of Maple Heights. A woman’s name is being withheld until her family is notified.

“I’m so troubled that those people died and their families and everything else,” said McGrath.
Investigators say the chase started just before 11 p.m. Thursday, when an officer was working on his vehicle near the Justice Center downtown.

“They heard a car rev up past them. They heard what they thought was a gunshot directed either at them or at the building. That car took off at a high rate of speed. They forwarded that information to other cars,” said East Cleveland Police Chief Ralph Spotts.

Police say the pursuit, involving dozens of officers, lasted nearly 25 minutes on the highway and city streets, with reports the people inside were firing at police.

It ended in a school parking lot in East Cleveland when 13 officers fired 137 rounds at the vehicle.
“They searched the vehicle and there was no weapon found in the vehicle,” Spotts said.

“Why did we get involved in a chase for over 20 minutes? Why did we have 13 officers involved, shooting their weapons, firing 137 rounds? Those questions, why, why, why have been floating through my head all last night, all today and I don’t have answers for you right now,” said McGrath.

http://fox8.com/2012/11/30/deadlychase/
mapleman

Amsterdam, Netherlands

#2 Dec 1, 2012
xxxrayted wrote:
“Why did we get involved in a chase for over 20 minutes? Why did we have 13 officers involved, shooting their weapons, firing 137 rounds? Those questions, why, why, why have been floating through my head all last night, all today and I don’t have answers for you right now,” said McGrath.
http://fox8.com/2012/11/30/deadlychase/
137 rounds? Do people even realize the how many shots were fired? Wow....
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#3 Dec 1, 2012
From recent reports, the driver rammed a few police cars. That gives them reason to believe their lives were in danger. One of such aggressions almost ended up with an officer hit.

The investigation is ongoing. From what I read, these clowns shot at a police officer. It's still unknown whether the female passenger was from Maple or not.
truthseeker

Springfield, TN

#4 Dec 3, 2012
The chief is asking WHY WHY it's very simple he has a gang of thugs and criminals handing out their brand of street justice and the next thing the chief should understand they will come after him if he goes against them.The union president knows the score he came out in their defense without knowing all the facts WHY he doesn't want them killer cops after him.The chief should face facts he doesn't run the dept. the killer cops are in charge and someone forgot to tell the chief.
Maple Resident

Beachwood, OH

#5 Dec 3, 2012
Is it possible that the two in the car that were killed could have had a gun but they threw it out the window and the police might not have seen it?

Another thing to think about is, why did the driver of that car go zipping past a cop car? Didn't he think the cops would go after him? And what was that 'pop' sound? Why would someone make a pop sound by a cop car and then take off like a rocket ship? Where are these so called people's brains at?
mapleman

Amsterdam, Netherlands

#6 Dec 3, 2012
Cops are known for seeing weapons when they do not exist. Cell phones, keys, and pagers all have got people shot before. Firing 137 rounds is just ridiculous and is basically some "gangland" shjt. Even with CCL, let any of our lives be in danger with our response being 17 rounds.

"I THOUGHT I heard a gun shot!!!"

Shut up, you're going to jail.

With 137 rounds fired, I'd expect the perps to have fired at least a few shots. Yet there was no gun recovered at the scene. Bonnie and Clyde were also fired on with 130 rounds or more. Do the cops know something about this couple that they aren't releasing?

Why would someone who is trying to shoot at police in front of their compound only shoot one shot? Something doesn't add up. All it takes is one officer telling the rest of the "gang" that he has been fired upon and you get 137 rounds fired. Come on.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#7 Dec 3, 2012
Maple Resident wrote:
Is it possible that the two in the car that were killed could have had a gun but they threw it out the window and the police might not have seen it?
Another thing to think about is, why did the driver of that car go zipping past a cop car? Didn't he think the cops would go after him? And what was that 'pop' sound? Why would someone make a pop sound by a cop car and then take off like a rocket ship? Where are these so called people's brains at?
A pop and a gunshot are two entirely different sounds. I remember years ago somebody was shooting in the street. As a person familiar with firearms, I knew it was gunfire immediately. I'm sure a cop is even more familiar with gunshots than I am.

Their bodies, clothing and inside of the car will determine if there is gunpowder present. They probably did throw out the gun somewhere, but that's a lot of road to cover. It's not like the chase ended a few miles up the road. When I was downtown, about five or six police cars were searching the area at deadman's curve today.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#8 Dec 3, 2012
mapleman wrote:
Cops are known for seeing weapons when they do not exist. Cell phones, keys, and pagers all have got people shot before. Firing 137 rounds is just ridiculous and is basically some "gangland" shjt. Even with CCL, let any of our lives be in danger with our response being 17 rounds.
"I THOUGHT I heard a gun shot!!!"
Shut up, you're going to jail.
With 137 rounds fired, I'd expect the perps to have fired at least a few shots. Yet there was no gun recovered at the scene. Bonnie and Clyde were also fired on with 130 rounds or more. Do the cops know something about this couple that they aren't releasing?
Why would someone who is trying to shoot at police in front of their compound only shoot one shot? Something doesn't add up. All it takes is one officer telling the rest of the "gang" that he has been fired upon and you get 137 rounds fired. Come on.
Would you be happier if they killed them with 40 or 50 rounds? Dead is dead.

Yes, the police knew they were chasing a driver with a long rap sheet. I'm sure they had no idea who the passenger was, but as it turns out, she had a rap sheet too.

EVen if no shot was fired, the best result would have happened if the driver simply pulled over. That's it. Everybody would be alive today.
mapleman

Amsterdam, Netherlands

#9 Dec 3, 2012
Would 40 or 50 round make more sense than over 130 rounds? Are we talking about trained professional or random untrained individuals without guns? I'd expect the former wouldn't need to let off over 130 rounds in such a situation. It just speaks to how poorly trained our police really are. Anyone of us can be a cop with six months of training.

There was no gun in the car at the time. What were the officers observing that required such firepower? I'm just wondering. As I said, let the average citizen do some reckless shjt like this and claim self-defense. Police should be held under even more scrutiny than average citizens. They are supposed to be trained.

I don't care about the criminal. Screw him. But this was either an execution or incompetent behavior from the police. You know I'm anti-criminal, but 130 rounds from so-called "trained" individuals doesn't pass the BS test.

To your response to Maple Resident, the cop could have been mistaken about the noise he heard. Cops have no more experience with guns than the average gun enthusiast. Cops have also been known to actually mistake objects that weren't guns as guns. There are many cases like that. I don't take the cops word as gospel until there has been a full investigation. What we do know is that there wasn't a gun recovered at the scene.

Why toss a gun if you aren't going to surrender? Why only one shot? Why not keep the gun and shoot some more when you were cornered. A lot of questions need to be answered.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#10 Dec 3, 2012
mapleman wrote:
Would 40 or 50 round make more sense than over 130 rounds? Are we talking about trained professional or random untrained individuals without guns? I'd expect the former wouldn't need to let off over 130 rounds in such a situation. It just speaks to how poorly trained our police really are. Anyone of us can be a cop with six months of training.
There was no gun in the car at the time. What were the officers observing that required such firepower? I'm just wondering. As I said, let the average citizen do some reckless shjt like this and claim self-defense. Police should be held under even more scrutiny than average citizens. They are supposed to be trained.
I don't care about the criminal. Screw him. But this was either an execution or incompetent behavior from the police. You know I'm anti-criminal, but 130 rounds from so-called "trained" individuals doesn't pass the BS test.
To your response to Maple Resident, the cop could have been mistaken about the noise he heard. Cops have no more experience with guns than the average gun enthusiast. Cops have also been known to actually mistake objects that weren't guns as guns. There are many cases like that. I don't take the cops word as gospel until there has been a full investigation. What we do know is that there wasn't a gun recovered at the scene.
Why toss a gun if you aren't going to surrender? Why only one shot? Why not keep the gun and shoot some more when you were cornered. A lot of questions need to be answered.
They will be........ in time. As you said, nothing is concrete until an investigation is complete. Nobody can jump to conclusions.

Criminals try to dispose of evidence all the time. If you have a police scanner or even watch the show C.O.P.S. criminals always throw crap out of the window. I can't tell you what was in his or her mind.

As training in a CCW class explains, there is no real preparation for being shot at and defending yourself.

We have 13 officers here, so that's about ten rounds per officer. It's night. You can't see the suspects. All you know is they likely have at least one firearm. From what I've read, the driver tried to use his vehicle as a deadly weapon. That gives officers the right to defend themselves. Even I'm not restricted from using my firearm because the attacker does not have a gun. It can be a bat, a group of unarmed individuals, a person with a hammer. Anything.

Very few of these cases ever lead to police misconduct. So you have to get the cops the benefit of the doubt.
mapleman

Amsterdam, Netherlands

#11 Dec 4, 2012
Do you believe that Cleveland police still don't have dash cams? I remember years ago the police chief didn't want them. Dash cams are important for publicly safety and as a deterrent to police misconduct. Why have the Cleveland police been fighting them for years? I mentioned this years ago when the bald spokesman police guy Steve whats his name was in an interview saying he didn't think they were needed. Pathetic.

I've heard numerous recordings saying that the subject didn't have a gun and had a pop can in his hand. That's from officers involved in the chase.

Police -- much like prosecutors -- tend to be above the law. I don't agree with the way things are. I think they should be held to much higher standards than the rest of us. It doesn't take 13 officers unloading their guns to stop a one perpetrator in a car. That's insane.

Had this been a citizen reporting what he thought was a gun shot and the police responded immediately, you can bet your a$$ that there wouldn't have been 137 round fired. Especially with a number of cops saying they only saw a soda can in the hand of the driver.

The gun residue tests will be in next week. Should be interesting. I just don't think it adds up. You fire one shot at the police THEN ditch the gun and DON'T surrender??????? Could be possible, but it doesn't fit with what people who shoot at police do in 99 percent of cases like this. Once they open fire, they don't toss the freaking gun.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#12 Dec 4, 2012
It could be anything. You live in Maple Heights, you know that people shoot guns all the time and then take off.

That's not to say they were shooting at police. I'm sure the bullet would be much easier to find. Perhaps they didn't see the cop until after they fired the gun, and took off realizing they were in trouble. Who knows?

What I do know is that this all could have been avoided. That's the important part. Just like you said with people who are holding cell phones. Just do what the police ask, and there won't be any mistakes. Freeze does not mean run. Freeze does not mean put your hands in your pockets. Freeze does not mean turn around. Freeze means don't move an inch.

Cleveland police do have a dash cam video. It was posted yesterday on Fox 8 news site. Not that it told you anything, but Cleveland police have 13 cars with cameras on them. That was explained today (and I'm sure you can get the audio on WTAM's web site) by a Cleveland councilman.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#13 Dec 4, 2012
Does this sound familiar?

CLEVELAND– A video obtained exclusively by the Fox 8 I-Team is now being looked at by state investigators.

It shows Malissa Williams in the back of a police cruiser last month.

“I would kill you,” Williams says, as she is handcuffed in the back seat of the cruiser.

Williams is one of the suspects that was killed in a Cleveland police-involved shooting last Thursday night. Williams and Timothy Russell died following a 25-minute chase that ended in East Cleveland.
Police say they began the chase because they thought someone from the suspects’ car fired a shot at an officer.

No gun has been found and no bullet casings were found in the vehicle.

13 officers fired more than 100 shots at their vehicle. Both suspects died at the scene.
During her arrest on a warrant a few days before the deadly chase, Williams was videotaped by an officer using his cell phone. While she is in the back of the cruiser, she rambles most of the time, uses vulgar language, and even makes some threats.

“I am going to kill you, blow you **** brains out,” Williams says.

She continued to rant as officers escorted her inside the jail. When the officer instructed her to face the back wall, she refused.

“Get your hands off me. Get your hands off me. Get your hands off me. I will kill your whole ****,” Williams said.

Williams’ family members told Fox 8 I-Team Reporter Peggy Sinkovich, Williams has suffered from mental health issues and they insist she was not violent.

“She is a very good girl and didn’t bother anybody,” said her mother, Martha Williams.

http://fox8.com/2012/12/04/i-team-exclusive-s...

LOL. Such a good girl. LOL!
Cosmo

Beachwood, OH

#14 Dec 6, 2012
xxxrayted wrote:
Does this sound familiar?
CLEVELAND– A video obtained exclusively by the Fox 8 I-Team is now being looked at by state investigators.
It shows Malissa Williams in the back of a police cruiser last month.
“I would kill you,” Williams says, as she is handcuffed in the back seat of the cruiser.
Williams is one of the suspects that was killed in a Cleveland police-involved shooting last Thursday night. Williams and Timothy Russell died following a 25-minute chase that ended in East Cleveland.
Police say they began the chase because they thought someone from the suspects’ car fired a shot at an officer.
No gun has been found and no bullet casings were found in the vehicle.
13 officers fired more than 100 shots at their vehicle. Both suspects died at the scene.
During her arrest on a warrant a few days before the deadly chase, Williams was videotaped by an officer using his cell phone. While she is in the back of the cruiser, she rambles most of the time, uses vulgar language, and even makes some threats.
“I am going to kill you, blow you **** brains out,” Williams says.
She continued to rant as officers escorted her inside the jail. When the officer instructed her to face the back wall, she refused.
“Get your hands off me. Get your hands off me. Get your hands off me. I will kill your whole ****,” Williams said.
Williams’ family members told Fox 8 I-Team Reporter Peggy Sinkovich, Williams has suffered from mental health issues and they insist she was not violent.
“She is a very good girl and didn’t bother anybody,” said her mother, Martha Williams.
http://fox8.com/2012/12/04/i-team-exclusive-s...
LOL. Such a good girl. LOL!
Oops. I posted a comment on this before I read that you already posted the info on that woman. I saw this story on channel 8 too. Williams was in trouble before and threatened the cops before so you think that maybe if the cops knew she was in the car, they just might think that she had a gun and would try to shoot and kill them? Hey....maybe the cops should have all dropped their weapons and walked up to the car with their hands in the air. What type of outcome you think would have occurred? Boy....there sure seems to be a lot of blacks out there with broken brains. Yeah, ok....you hear of whites killing someone but that's like every other month, maybe. But with the blacks, just in Cleveland alone it's like an every day thing. Then when the police go after them, we're all supposed to feel sorry for when the culprits are made into a piece of Swiss cheese.
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#15 Dec 6, 2012
It's not yet known the race of the cops. If they were all white, then it will be a race issue. If some were black, it will be a police brutality issue. No matter what the outcome, many will blame the cops anyway.
mapleman

Amsterdam, Netherlands

#16 Dec 7, 2012
Out of almost 400 cars, CPD only has 13 equipped with dash cams. They simply don't want them. It's been like that for years. A lot of the tactics CPD engages(like pulling people over for nothing) would come to an end with dash cams.

I blame both parties in this incident. The police reported it was a can in the driver's hands. There was no gun. I heard the recordings. It can clearly be heard, "Be advised, the driver is holding a can, there is not a gun."

Both the CPD and the driver put people at risk. This was just a "blue gang" execution. I don't want police conducting dangerous high speed chases for BS. It puts everyone at danger. You have the driver's info. Pick him up later. 137 shots and not a gun in sight. Inexcusable. The idiots even hit their own cars. LOL. And these are supposed to be "experts" at what they do?

I don't have any sympathy for any of the participants in this case. It's like dumb meets dumber. Once the gun residue tests confirm there wasn't a gun, all 13 cops should be fired and brought up on charges. Two birds with one stone. Got rid of the thug and now the dirty cops. LOL
xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#17 Dec 7, 2012
Gun or not, the driver decided to use his car as a deadly weapon against police. That warrants their response. How did police know that the guy didn't have a can of pop and a gun? That part makes no sense.
mapleman

Amsterdam, Netherlands

#18 Dec 8, 2012
That's what the police say. What does the evidence say? I think we should wait until the gun residue tests come back before we start singing the praises of the police.

xxxrayted

Cleveland, OH

#19 Dec 8, 2012
Agreed, or convict them before the evidence is presented. One report I heard on the radio said it could take up to one year. Why? I don't know.
mapleman

Amsterdam, Netherlands

#20 Dec 11, 2012
Can't say. But we do know that the State Police can look down on local law enforcement. The feds look down on the others. It's a big p1ssing contest. I just know local PD are the lowest hanging fruit. Anyone can join.

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