Has anyone read Ishmael (novel)? Lets...

Has anyone read Ishmael (novel)? Lets have an intelligence conversation.

Posted in the Franklin Forum

Barry

Indianapolis, IN

#1 Mar 13, 2013
This book changed me. I would love to hear what people of different political beliefs think about it. I would also love to hear what the Dominionist and the Gospel of Prosperity devotees think. And people with different racial views.

If you haven't read this book, do so. It changed my whole outlook on the world.
Moe

Indianapolis, IN

#2 Mar 13, 2013
I have. It is a wonderful book and life affirming. You really didn't expect the hayseeds and crackers here to have read book, did you?
Ishmael is a 1992 philosophical novel by Daniel Quinn . It examines mythology , its effect on ethics , and how that relates to sustainability . The novel uses a style of Socratic dialogue to deconstruct the notion that humans are the pinnacle of biological evolution. It posits that human supremacy is a cultural myth, and asserts that modern civilization is enacting that myth with dangerous consequences. It was awarded the $500,000 Turner Tomorrow Fellowship Award .
Ishmael ultimately comprises a loose trilogy , including a 1996 spiritual sequel , The Story of B , and a 1997 sidequel , My Ishmael . Quinn also details how he arrived at the ideas behind Ishmael in his autobiography, Providence: The Story of a Fifty-Year Vision Quest . Yet another related book to Ishmael is Quinn's 1999 non-fiction work, Beyond Civilization .
[edit ] Plot summary
Ishmael begins with a newspaper ad: "Teacher seeks pupil. Must have an earnest desire to save the world. Apply in person." The nameless narrator and protagonist begins his story, telling how he first reacted to this ad with scorn because of the absurdity of "wanting to save the world," a notion he feels that once he foolishly embraced himself as an adolescent during the counterculture movement of the 1960s . However, he responds to the ad anyway and, upon arriving at the address, finds himself in a room with a gorilla . He notices a polysemous sign that reads "With man gone, will there be hope for gorilla?"
To the narrator's surprise, he finds that the gorilla, calling himself Ishmael, can communicate telepathically . At first baffled by this, the man learns the story of how the gorilla came to be here and soon accepts Ishmael as his teacher, regularly returning to Ishmael's office throughout the plot. The novel continues from this point mainly as a Socratic dialogue between Ishmael and his new student as they hash out what Ishmael refers to as "how things came to be this way" for mankind.
Ishmael's life, which began in the African wilderness, was spent mostly in a zoo and a menagerie , and since had been spent in the gazebo of a man that extricated him from physical captivity. He tells his student that it was at the menagerie that he learned about human language and culture and began to think about things that he never would have pondered in the wild. Subsequently, Ishmael tells his student that the subject for this learning experience will be captivity, primarily the captivity of man under a distorted civilizational system. The narrator claims to Ishmael that he has a vague notion of living in some sort of cultural captivity and being lied to in some way but he can not explain his feelings.
Before proceeding Ishmael lays some ground definitions for his student. He defines:
Takers as people often referred to as "civilized." Particularly, the culture born in an Agricultural Revolution that began about 10,000 years ago in the Near East ; this is the culture of Ishmael's pupil and, presumably, the reader.
Leavers as people of all other cultures; often derogatorily referred to by Takers as "primitive."
A story as an interrelation between the gods, man, and the earth, with a beginning, middle, and end.
To enact is to strive to make a story come true.
A culture is a people who are enacting a story.
Ishmael proceeds to tease from his pupil the premises of the story (i.e. myth) being enacted by the Takers: that they are the pinnacle of evolution , that the world was made for man, and that man is here to conquer and rule the world. This rule is meant to bring about a paradise, as man increases his mastery of the world, however, he is always failing because he is flawed. Man doesn't know how to live and never will because that knowledge is unobtainable. So, however hard he labors to save the world, he is just going to go on defiling and spoiling it.
Moe

Indianapolis, IN

#3 Mar 13, 2013
Ishmael is a 1992 philosophical novel by Daniel Quinn . It examines mythology , its effect on ethics , and how that relates to sustainability . The novel uses a style of Socratic dialogue to deconstruct the notion that humans are the pinnacle of biological evolution. It posits that human supremacy is a cultural myth, and asserts that modern civilization is enacting that myth with dangerous consequences. It was awarded the $500,000 Turner Tomorrow Fellowship Award .

Ishmael ultimately comprises a loose trilogy , including a 1996 spiritual sequel , The Story of B , and a 1997 sidequel , My Ishmael . Quinn also details how he arrived at the ideas behind Ishmael in his autobiography, Providence: The Story of a Fifty-Year Vision Quest . Yet another related book to Ishmael is Quinn's 1999 non-fiction work, Beyond Civilization .

[edit ] Plot summary

Ishmael begins with a newspaper ad: "Teacher seeks pupil. Must have an earnest desire to save the world. Apply in person." The nameless narrator and protagonist begins his story, telling how he first reacted to this ad with scorn because of the absurdity of "wanting to save the world," a notion he feels that once he foolishly embraced himself as an adolescent during the counterculture movement of the 1960s . However, he responds to the ad anyway and, upon arriving at the address, finds himself in a room with a gorilla . He notices a polysemous sign that reads "With man gone, will there be hope for gorilla?"

To the narrator's surprise, he finds that the gorilla, calling himself Ishmael, can communicate telepathically . At first baffled by this, the man learns the story of how the gorilla came to be here and soon accepts Ishmael as his teacher, regularly returning to Ishmael's office throughout the plot. The novel continues from this point mainly as a Socratic dialogue between Ishmael and his new student as they hash out what Ishmael refers to as "how things came to be this way" for mankind.

Ishmael's life, which began in the African wilderness, was spent mostly in a zoo and a menagerie , and since had been spent in the gazebo of a man that extricated him from physical captivity. He tells his student that it was at the menagerie that he learned about human language and culture and began to think about things that he never would have pondered in the wild. Subsequently, Ishmael tells his student that the subject for this learning experience will be captivity, primarily the captivity of man under a distorted civilizational system. The narrator claims to Ishmael that he has a vague notion of living in some sort of cultural captivity and being lied to in some way but he can not explain his feelings.

Before proceeding Ishmael lays some ground definitions for his student. He defines:

Takers as people often referred to as "civilized." Particularly, the culture born in an Agricultural Revolution that began about 10,000 years ago in the Near East ; this is the culture of Ishmael's pupil and, presumably, the reader.
Leavers as people of all other cultures; often derogatorily referred to by Takers as "primitive."
A story as an interrelation between the gods, man, and the earth, with a beginning, middle, and end.
To enact is to strive to make a story come true.
A culture is a people who are enacting a story.
Ishmael proceeds to tease from his pupil the premises of the story (i.e. myth) being enacted by the Takers: that they are the pinnacle of evolution , that the world was made for man, and that man is here to conquer and rule the world. This rule is meant to bring about a paradise, as man increases his mastery of the world, however, he is always failing because he is flawed. Man doesn't know how to live and never will because that knowledge is unobtainable. So, however hard he labors to save the world, he is just going to go on defiling and spoiling it.
Ralph

Bloomingdale, IN

#4 Mar 13, 2013
BMoe wrote:
This book changed me. I would love to hear what people of different political beliefs think about it. I would also love to hear what the Dominionist and the Gospel of Prosperity devotees think. And people with different racial views.
If you haven't read this book, do so. It changed my whole outlook on the world.
Delitefull!
Professor

Indianapolis, IN

#5 Mar 14, 2013
A moderately intelligent and education would understand the philosophy of Ishmael. I don't if you will find many readers here.

After all, this forum voted for Mourdock and Ballard. They love their leader the Kapootz. And they tolerate that racist and KKK henchman AllAmerican1.

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#6 Mar 14, 2013
I think we have another Moe. Confess professor you are Moe!

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#7 Mar 14, 2013
AllAmerican_ wrote:
I think we have another Moe. Confess professor you are Moe!
You are a fu**ing idiot Moe.
Pete

Indianapolis, IN

#8 Mar 14, 2013
Duchess 29631 wrote:
<quoted text>You are a fu**ing idiot Moe.
Are you Moe?

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#9 Mar 14, 2013
Pete wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you Moe?
Sure Moe......DH
Grandma Edna

Yeoman, IN

#10 Mar 15, 2013
Duchess 29631 wrote:
<quoted text>You are a fu**ing idiot Moe.
Why are you so nasty and foul? You certainly don't conduct yourself like a lady. No one will ever accuse you of having an elegant demeanor,that's for sure. It must be that south side upbringing rearing its ugly head.

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#11 Mar 15, 2013
Anybody care to guess how we can tell that "Grandma Edna" is Moe? It's an easy one! It's as clear as it can be. What do you think?
Mole

Chicago, IL

#12 Mar 15, 2013
AllAmerican1 wrote:
Anybody care to guess how we can tell that "Grandma Edna" is Moe? It's an easy one! It's as clear as it can be. What do you think?
I think you may be right!

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#13 Mar 15, 2013
AllAmerican1 wrote:
Anybody care to guess how we can tell that "Grandma Edna" is Moe? It's an easy one! It's as clear as it can be. What do you think?
The answer is.....this is the first time a "female" has ever posted on Topix, that Moe didn't hit on, then make suggestive comments to, and then finally when he realizes he isn't luring anybody to his dungeon, starts being disrespectful and hateful toward them.
Moe

Indianapolis, IN

#14 Mar 15, 2013
AllAmerican1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The answer is.....this is the first time a "female" has ever posted on Topix, that Moe didn't hit on, then make suggestive comments to, and then finally when he realizes he isn't luring anybody to his dungeon, starts being disrespectful and hateful toward them.
You sound like a woman.
Ray

Yeoman, IN

#15 Mar 15, 2013
AllAmerican1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The answer is.....this is the first time a "female" has ever posted on Topix, that Moe didn't hit on, then make suggestive comments to, and then finally when he realizes he isn't luring anybody to his dungeon, starts being disrespectful and hateful toward them.
Why would Moe hit on the old bat? He's a homosexual.
The Ultimate Kaptoz

Yeoman, IN

#16 Mar 15, 2013
That's stupid. Why spend time reading a book when I can spend an evening watching TV? Especially FOX NEWS? Books are boring.

“Liberal”

Since: Feb 13

Location hidden

#17 Mar 15, 2013
The Ultimate Kaptoz wrote:
That's stupid. Why spend time reading a book when I can spend an evening watching TV? Especially FOX NEWS? Books are boring.
Fox News will broadcast the second coming of Christ.
Natter

Indianapolis, IN

#18 Mar 16, 2013
You are an idiot! People here don't read books!

Go on down the road!
Bruno

Fletcher, OH

#19 Mar 16, 2013
AllAmerican1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The answer is.....this is the first time a "female" has ever posted on Topix, that Moe didn't hit on, then make suggestive comments to, and then finally when he realizes he isn't luring anybody to his dungeon, starts being disrespectful and hateful toward them.
You've been a wallflower all of your life,haven't you Darling?

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