Dan Carpenter: We love our guns -- and have the deaths to show for it

May 11, 2013 Full story: The Indianapolis Star 223

Law enforcers at the city and federal levels have taken the offensive against rampant gun violence in several Indianapolis neighborhoods.

Full Story

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#169 May 24, 2013
" one of them said they were come in order to see what was best to be done for the country. After that, came in several others, armed and on horseback, two of them in uniform, with swords and pistols...."

Under what authority do THEY decide what is best for the country? Because they're armed?
GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
"William Henry testified substantially as follows:
"I arrived at Bethlehem on the evening of the 6th of March, 1799. We had heard that there was a party of men would collect, for the purpose of rescuing the prisoners who were there in custody of the marshal; in consequence of that, I went to assist the marshal, and, if possible, prevail on the people to desist. I was one of the Judges of the Court of Common Pleas for the County of Northampton. About ten o' clock on the morning of the 7th, two men, with arms, arrived at the tavern where we were; who, when inquired of by the marshal as to their intention in coming armed, appeared to be diffident about answer; after first saying that they came upon a shooting frolic, one of them said they were come in order to see what was best to be done for the country. After that, came in several others, armed and on horseback, two of them in uniform, with swords and pistols...."
"...I also walked out for the same purpose, requesting them to withdraw, and not appear in arms in order to obstruct the process of the United States laws. They answered, that they were freemen, and might go where they pleased with their arms. I told them that they ran great risk by appearing in arms for such a purpose as I feared they were come. They came in a number, but I don t know how many particularly, as they mixed among the crowd. We requested them to deliver up their arms; but they refused. I also, at the same time, told one of them that it would be best for him to surrender himself, and not oppose the process; the others gave me answer, that they had come to accompany their friend, and to see that no injury was done to him. After this I returned into the lower back room of the house; by this time there were a number more collected round the house, but mostly armed. I don't recollect whether it was before these three men arrived, or not, that the marshal had sent off four men of his posse in order to meet the men with arms who were coming forward; and after we were up stairs three men arrived as a deputation from the armed body, making inquiry as to the intention of the marshal in taking these prisoners; with these three men, the four deputed by the marshal had returned from the armed body that was the other side of the bridge, in order to learn the marshal's object. The marshal assured them of the legality of the process, and reasoned with them as to the consequences of opposition, or threats to him, or preventing him from executing his duty; but I believe he liberated the two men that were first put in confinement, and returned them their guns. During the time that these two men were in confinement, we examined their guns, and found them loaded...."
- TRIAL OF THE NORTHAMPTON INSURGENTS, IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE UNITED STATES FOR THE PENNSYLVANIA DISTRICT PHILADELPHIA, 1799-1800, James Iredell, one of the Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States.

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#171 May 25, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
" one of them said they were come in order to see what was best to be done for the country. After that, came in several others, armed and on horseback, two of them in uniform, with swords and pistols...."
Under what authority do THEY decide what is best for the country? Because they're armed?
<quoted text>
WE THE PEOPLE.

"The American fire has proved more deadly in battle than any other; probably because we have been from our earliest years familiar with the use of fire-arms. The inducements, however, to such an use are fast decreasing. The rapid progress of agriculture, accelerated by the uncommon rewards of labour, is, by constant, though almost imperceptible degrees, impairing the efficiency our arms, by lessening the objects for their use."--Joseph Alston, Governor of South Carolina, Nov. 26, 1816 address to the Senate and House of Representatives.[Dec. 14, 1816 Issue of the National Register, No. 16, Vol. 2, Pg. 245]

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#172 May 25, 2013
Again, your reply didn't address my question. Obviously, you CAN'T answer it.
GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
WE THE PEOPLE.
"The American fire has proved more deadly in battle than any other; probably because we have been from our earliest years familiar with the use of fire-arms. The inducements, however, to such an use are fast decreasing. The rapid progress of agriculture, accelerated by the uncommon rewards of labour, is, by constant, though almost imperceptible degrees, impairing the efficiency our arms, by lessening the objects for their use."--Joseph Alston, Governor of South Carolina, Nov. 26, 1816 address to the Senate and House of Representatives.[Dec. 14, 1816 Issue of the National Register, No. 16, Vol. 2, Pg. 245]

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#173 May 25, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
Again, your reply didn't address my question. Obviously, you CAN'T answer it.
<quoted text>
“...On motion to amend article the fifth, by inserting these words,'for the common defence,' next to the words 'bear arms:'"

“It passed in the negative."

“On motion to strike out of this article, line the second, these words,'the best,' and insert in lieu thereof 'necessary to the:'"

“It passed in the affirmative."

“On motion, on article the fifth, to strike out the word 'fifth,' after 'article the,' and insert 'fourth,' and to amend the article to read as follows:'A well regulated militia being the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'"

“It passed in the affirmative....”

- Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1789.

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#175 May 25, 2013
GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
“...On motion to amend article the fifth, by inserting these words,'for the common defence,' next to the words 'bear arms:'
If you don't like the Second Amendment the way it is, GayDavy, why don't you try to change it to your version?

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#176 May 25, 2013
barefoot2626 wrote:
<quoted text>
If you don't like the Second Amendment the way it is, GayDavy, why don't you try to change it to your version?
"The war of the revolution is known to have been in preparation for some years before the first blow was struck. In all the colonies, the topics of controversy were familiar to the youth, and in none more than in Virginia. The most temperate spirits in the land, looked to arms as the inevitable recourse; and by their writings, their speeches, their daily and familiar conversation, spread the preparatory temper around them. It was the retired soldier of Mount Vernon,[Ed. Note: George Washington], who in April 1769, thus wrote to his friend George Mason, who afterwards drafted the first constitution of Virginia: "At a time when our lordly masters in Great Britain will be satisfied with nothing less than a deprivation of American freedom, it seems highly necessary that something should be done to avert the stroke, and maintain the liberty which we have derived from our ancestors. But the manner of doing it, to answer the purpose effectually, is the point in question. That no man should scruple or hesitate a moment to use arms in defence of so valuable a blessing, is clearly my opinion."--Honourable Horace Binney, Sept. 25th, 1835 EULOGY ON JOHN MARSHALL.[HAZARD'S REGISTER OF PENNSYLVANIA. Vol. XVI..--No. 19 Philadelphia, November 7, 1835. No 409. Pg.290]

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#177 May 25, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
Again, your reply didn't address my question. Obviously, you CAN'T answer it.
<quoted text>
"Is it a fact that they had the liberties of their country within their grasp? that the troops then in command, even if led on by their illustrious chief, and backed by the apostates from the revolutionary cause, could have brought under the yoke the great body of their fellow-citizens, most of them with arms in their hands, no inconsiderable part fresh from the use of them, all inspired with rage at the fratricidal attempt, and not only guided by the federal head, but organized and animated by their local Governments, possessing the means of appealing to their interests as well as other motives, should such an appeal be required?"

- James Madison, Aug. 25th, 1825 letter to Henry Coleman.[LETTERS AND OTHER WRITINGS OF JAMES MADISON. FOURTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. IN FOUR VOLUMES. PUBLISHED BY ORDER OF CONGRESS. VOL. III. 1816-1828. PHILADELPHIA: J.B. LIPPINCOTT & CO. 1865. Pg. 495]

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#178 May 25, 2013
And what the holy f**k does that have to do with a couple rummies with guns deciding what's best for the country?
GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
“...On motion to amend article the fifth, by inserting these words,'for the common defence,' next to the words 'bear arms:'"
“It passed in the negative."
“On motion to strike out of this article, line the second, these words,'the best,' and insert in lieu thereof 'necessary to the:'"
“It passed in the affirmative."
“On motion, on article the fifth, to strike out the word 'fifth,' after 'article the,' and insert 'fourth,' and to amend the article to read as follows:'A well regulated militia being the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'"
“It passed in the affirmative....”
- Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1789.

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#179 May 25, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
And what the holy f**k does that have to do with a couple rummies with guns deciding what's best for the country?
<quoted text>
The Preamble to The Bill of Rights

Congress of the United States
begun and held at the City of New-York, on
Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to PREVENT MISCONSTRUCTION or ABUSE of its powers, that further DECLARATORY and RESTRICTIVE clauses should be added: And as EXTENDING the ground of PUBLIC CONFIDENCE in the Government, will BEST ENSURE the beneficent ends of its institution.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, ALL, or any of which Articles, when RATIFIED by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be VALID to ALL INTENTS and PURPOSES, as PART of the said Constitution; viz.

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution....

...Amendment II

DECLARATORY clause; (Common Defense)

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,"

RESTRICTIVE clause; (Self-Defense)

"the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms, shall NOT be infringed."

Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

Declaratory

a. Making declaration, clear manifestation, or exhibition; expressive; as, this clause is declaratory of the will
of the legislature. The declaratory part of a law, is that which sets forth and defines what is right and what is
wrong. A declaratory act, is an act or statute which sets forth more clearly and explains the intention of the
legislature in a former act.

Restrictive

a.

1. Having the quality of limiting or of expressing limitation; as a restrictive particle.

2. Imposing restraint; as restrictive laws of trade.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#180 May 25, 2013
Still irrelevant to the question, idiot.
GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The Preamble to The Bill of Rights
Congress of the United States
begun and held at the City of New-York, on
Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.
THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to PREVENT MISCONSTRUCTION or ABUSE of its powers, that further DECLARATORY and RESTRICTIVE clauses should be added: And as EXTENDING the ground of PUBLIC CONFIDENCE in the Government, will BEST ENSURE the beneficent ends of its institution.
RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, ALL, or any of which Articles, when RATIFIED by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be VALID to ALL INTENTS and PURPOSES, as PART of the said Constitution; viz.
ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution....
...Amendment II
DECLARATORY clause; (Common Defense)
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,"
RESTRICTIVE clause; (Self-Defense)
"the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms, shall NOT be infringed."
Webster's 1828 Dictionary:
Declaratory
a. Making declaration, clear manifestation, or exhibition; expressive; as, this clause is declaratory of the will
of the legislature. The declaratory part of a law, is that which sets forth and defines what is right and what is
wrong. A declaratory act, is an act or statute which sets forth more clearly and explains the intention of the
legislature in a former act.
Restrictive
a.
1. Having the quality of limiting or of expressing limitation; as a restrictive particle.
2. Imposing restraint; as restrictive laws of trade.

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#181 May 25, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
Still irrelevant to the question, idiot.
<quoted text>
I'm not the mindless traitor-troll that can't figure out that it is >you< that is actually "irrelevant".

"The right of self-defence never ceases. It is among the most sacred, and alike necessary to nations and to individuals."

- President James Monroe, Nov. 16, 1818 message to the U.S. House and Senate.[Journal of the Senate of the United States of America, November 17th, 1818.]

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#182 May 26, 2013
GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not the mindless traitor-troll that can't figure out that it is >you< that is actually "irrelevant".
++
The GayDavy menu:
Egg and Bacon;

Egg, sausage and Bacon;

Egg and Spam;

Spam Egg Sausage and Spam;

Egg, Bacon and Spam;

Egg, Bacon, sausage and Spam;

Spam, Bacon, sausage and Spam;

Spam, Egg, Spam, Spam, Bacon and Spam;

Spam, Spam, Spam, Egg and Spam;

Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, baked beans, Spam, Spam, Spam and Spam;

Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a Mornay sauce, served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines, garnished with truffle pâté, brandy and a fried egg on top and Spam

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#183 May 26, 2013
barefoot2626 wrote:
<quoted text>
++
The GayDavy menu:
Egg and Bacon;
Egg, sausage and Bacon;
Egg and Spam;
Spam Egg Sausage and Spam;
Egg, Bacon and Spam;
Egg, Bacon, sausage and Spam;
Spam, Bacon, sausage and Spam;
Spam, Egg, Spam, Spam, Bacon and Spam;
Spam, Spam, Spam, Egg and Spam;
Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, baked beans, Spam, Spam, Spam and Spam;
Lobster Thermidor aux crevettes with a Mornay sauce, served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines, garnished with truffle pâté, brandy and a fried egg on top and Spam
"Had I voted against the bill, believing this modern doctrine, should have felt myself bound, as a consistent man, to have gone home and told my constituents that a proposition was made in Congress to relieve them from two millions of their burdens, which I had rejected with scorn, but that I had brought them the glorious remedy of nullification. I knew the temper of that people too well; I knew they were devotedly attached to the Union of these States, as the last hope of liberty upon earth, and that they were not inclined to jeopard it upon a doubtful point of political economy. Whenever sir, I persuade the people whom I represent, to resist the laws of this Government, it will be such resistance as freemen should make, with arms in their hands, and not a pettifogging chicanery through the courts."

- Mr. WILLIAM B. SHEPARD, Jan. 29, 1833, Speech in the U.S. House of Representatives on the Tariff Bill,[REGISTER OF DEBATES IN CONGRESS COMPRISING THE LEADING DEBATES AND INCIDENTS OF THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TWENTY-SECOND CONGRESS: TOGETHER WITH AN APPENDIX, CONTAINING IMPORTANT STATE PAPERS AND PUBLIC DOCUMENTS, AND THE LAWS, OF A PUBLIC NATURE, ENACTED DURING THE SESSION: WITH A COPIOUS INDEX TO THE WHOLE. VOLUME IX. WASHINGTON: PRINTED AND PUBLISHED BY GALES AND SEATON. 1833. Pg. 1440]

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#184 May 26, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
Still irrelevant to the question, idiot.
<quoted text>
"In the intervals of toil their amusements consist chiefly of hunting and shooting, in the woods, or on the mountains; whence they acquire prodigious muscular activity and strength. We have no game laws, such as exist in Europe, to prohibit the possession and use of firearms to the great body of the people. Our boys carry a gun almost as soon as they can walk; and the habitual practice of shooting at a target, with the rifle, renders the Americans the most unerring marksmen, and the most deadly musketry in the world; as was singularly evidenced at Bunker's Hill, in the commencement of the revolutionary conflict, and at New-Orleans, at the close of the last war."

- John Bristed,[THE RESOURCES OF THE OF AMERICA; OR, A VIEW OF THE AGRICULTURAL, COMMERCIAL, MANUFACTURING, FINANCIAL, POLITICAL, LITERARY, MORAL AND RELIGIOUS CAPACITY AND CHARACTER or THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. BY JOHN BRISTED, COUNSELLOR AT LAW. AUTHOR OF THE RESOURCES OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE New-York: PUBLISHED BY JAMES EASTBURN & CO. AT THE LITERARY ROOMS, BROADWAY, CORNER OF PINE STREET. Abraham Paul, printer. 1818.]

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#185 May 26, 2013
GunShow1 wrote:
1818.
..
Vikings: Spam! Lovely spam! Lovely 200 year old spam!

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#186 May 26, 2013
barefoot2626 wrote:
<quoted text>
..
Vikings: Spam! Lovely spam! Lovely 200 year old spam!
"For more than a century the Americans had claimed that by their charters they were empowered to protect themselves--an idea out of which evolved the political doctrine set forth in the declarations of rights, that the natural and safe defence of a free state is its militia, composed of the body of its people trained to arms. The doctrine is the application to the state of the individual's right of self defence."

- Francis Newton Thorpe,[A CONSTITUTIONAL HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE BY FRANCIS NEWTON THORPE Illustrated with Maps IN TWO VOLUMES VOLUME ONE NEW YORK AND LONDON HARPER & BROTHERS PUBLISHERS 1898. Pg. 52](Mr. Thorpe,(1857 - 1926), was an American legal scholar, historian, political scientist,and Professor of Constitutional History at the University of Penn.)

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#188 May 26, 2013
It's obvious gunshow has nothing to say. His posts are the equivalent of the old K-Tel ads for albums: Sounds of the 1800's.
barefoot2626 wrote:
<quoted text>
..
Vikings: Spam! Lovely spam! Lovely 200 year old spam!

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#189 May 26, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
It's obvious gunshow has nothing to say. His posts are the equivalent of the old K-Tel ads for albums: Sounds of the 1800's.
<quoted text>
Funny how I don't have to write a word to prove that you are nothing more than a brainless traitor-troll, isn't it?

"Most of the amendments now offered came from the party opposed to a strong central government. They did not contemplate any radical change, but simply a definition of the power of the central government and its relation to the States. Congress adopted ten of the nearly threescore amendments proposed. They emphasized the freedom of speech, religion and the press, the right to bear arms, the security of the people from unreasonable searches and seizures, and stated that powers not delegated to the United States, nor prohibited to the States by the Constitution are reserved to the States or to the people, and that the fact that certain specific rights are by the Constitution, enumerated as belonging to the people, does not deny or disparage other rights still retained by them. These amendments were adopted by the States."--Arthur Gilman,[A HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, BY ARTHUR GILMAN M.A., AUTHOR OF "FIRST STEPS IN GENERAL HISTORY," "FIRST STEPS IN ENGLISH LITERATURE," EDITOR OF THE "POETICAL WORKS OF GEOFFREY CHAUCER," "THE KINGDOM OF HOME," ETC., ETC. I was born an American; I will live an American; I shall die an American, and I intend to perform the duties incumbent upon me in that character to the end of my career.-- Daniel Webster, WITH ILLUSTRATIONS, BOSTON D. LOTHROP AND COMPANY FRANKLIN STREET COR. OF HAWLEY. 1883]

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#190 May 26, 2013
Still waiting for the authority for two gunsuckers have to determine what's best for the country.
GunShow1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Funny how I don't have to write a word to prove that you are nothing more than a brainless traitor-troll, isn't it?
"Most of the amendments now offered came from the party opposed to a strong central government. They did not contemplate any radical change, but simply a definition of the power of the central government and its relation to the States. Congress adopted ten of the nearly threescore amendments proposed. They emphasized the freedom of speech, religion and the press, the right to bear arms, the security of the people from unreasonable searches and seizures, and stated that powers not delegated to the United States, nor prohibited to the States by the Constitution are reserved to the States or to the people, and that the fact that certain specific rights are by the Constitution, enumerated as belonging to the people, does not deny or disparage other rights still retained by them. These amendments were adopted by the States."--Arthur Gilman,[A HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, BY ARTHUR GILMAN M.A., AUTHOR OF "FIRST STEPS IN GENERAL HISTORY," "FIRST STEPS IN ENGLISH LITERATURE," EDITOR OF THE "POETICAL WORKS OF GEOFFREY CHAUCER," "THE KINGDOM OF HOME," ETC., ETC. I was born an American; I will live an American; I shall die an American, and I intend to perform the duties incumbent upon me in that character to the end of my career.-- Daniel Webster, WITH ILLUSTRATIONS, BOSTON D. LOTHROP AND COMPANY FRANKLIN STREET COR. OF HAWLEY. 1883]

“Shall NOT be infringed!”

Since: Apr 13

San Jose, CA.

#192 May 26, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
Still waiting for the authority for two gunsuckers have to determine what's best for the country.
<quoted text>
And once AGAIN - "WE THE PEOPLE"

Here, put THIS in your treason pipe and SMOKE IT:

"GENERAL WASHINGTON TO MR. GERRY.

"CAMP AT PENNYBACKERS MILL, SEPT. 27, 1777.

"SIR,

"I am favoured with your's of the 25th. I yesterday wrote you that I did not think myself authorized to seize upon any arms the property of private persons; but if they can be collected and the owners satisfied for them, it would be of very essential service, as great numbers of militia would join the army could they be furnished with arms. I am glad you have began the collection of blankets and shoes; this business cannot be carried to too great an extent and I think if the measure is properly pursued, great quantities of blankets, rugs and coverlids, may be collected in the back counties..."

[The Life of ELBRIDGE GERRY. With Contemporary Letters. TO THE CLOSE OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION. BY JAMES T AUSTIN. BOSTON: WELLS AND LILLY--COURT STREET. 1828.](Elbridge Thomas Gerry,(July, 1744 – November 23, 1814), was an American statesman and diplomat. As a Democratic-Republican he was selected as the fifth Vice President of the United States (1813–1814), serving under James Madison.)

Take a long hike off a short pier, traitor-troll.

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