Martin mum on potential moves

[Numbers_Guy]

Heck, Potvin. Here's another way to look at it. I'm a skydiving instructor. I teach and take people for tandem skydives and such. How long of a career would I have if, like your trial lawyer, I was only successful half the time? Would you jump with me if I only saved 1/2 my students? Would failing just half my students mean I was not successful some of the time?

[Louie]

RED BARON wrote:

<quoted text>
Bad analogy Louie. When you go for surgery and the doctor screwed up the last 8 surgeries I think anyone in their sane mind is justified in criticizing that doctor or going to another doctor. Making one mistake is one thing. Making eight in a row is unacceptable. As far as I'm concerned, if this team was a medical facility they would have been shutdown for malpractice a long time ago. I realize Martin wasn't at the helm for 8 years, but Cohen was and his penchant for finding and hiring talent is horrible.
By the way, Colorado just fired their GM Giguere after ONE "unacceptable season" and that was primarily due to extensive injuries to their top players. That's the difference between a real NHL team and one that doesn't care. While Colorado's Team president Pierre Lacroix states that fans and management "deserve better" our illustrious President Yormark is busy buying urinal cakes with Panthers logos for the BAC. While Colorado ownership is deeply concerned and even outraged with what happened to their storied franchise, Cohen thinks our team is a "very exciting team to watch" after 8 years of no playoff appearances and the last franchise player soon to leave the club for nothing in return. Can you see the difference yet between a team that wants and tries to compete and one that just doesn't care? It is nauseating when you think about it. Cohen just doesn't care. As long as those renewals come in it is business as usual.
Anyhow, you and the rest of the suckers will see what happens this offseason. You obviously have a short term memory. Based on history I guarantee you it will not be pretty. Then again Martin can do no wrong in your eyes so what's another season down the drain... right? The Panthers might as well own one league record for the most seasons without a playoff appearance. They can even make a banner for it to hang next to that Celine Dion banner at the BAC. I can think of nothing better that perfectly illustrates how truly incompetent and inept this franchise really is and how it has eroded away the goodwill and trust of every fan that is left. I feel sorry for the players that have to play here. What a way to enter the league. Ouch. I also feel sorry for an entire generation of kids under 12 years of age who grew up never attending a live NHL playoff game with their parent(s). It truly is a travesty and indicative of how warped people can get when they are led to believe that something very bad is actually good and deserves praise. Welcome to modern times I guess.

Red, you cannot blame the present coach and team for all of the ills of the past. Mistakes have been made in the past, trades have been made that should not have been made, acquisitions failed or were never made when they should have been made, but how long are you going to live in the past instead of looking to the future? This past season was the best Panthers hockey I have seen in a long time. Not to where it should be, but better than before. To me, that's improvement and I'll take it where I can get it. We have a great new coach, some young stars in Booth and Frolik, two good goalies, and some good d-men. Can you see nothing positive? Do you really think it is productive to continually harp on the past mistakes rather than looking forward to a more positive future? Or is everything completely bleak in your world?
And BTW, I still predict that JM will be gone before long.

[Potvin]

Wait a Minute wrote:

<quoted text>
Which road should we consider? Just the past season? The past 9 seasons? Just the two seasons where Jacques Martin was the GM. Just the seasons since Jacques Martin joined the organization? Just the years that the present owner has owned the organization?
It might not be black and white if we were dealing with a quality team that simply missed the playoffs due to various factors, including some beyond their control. But we are talking about a team that hasn't been in the playoffs in almost a decade and a team that promised to make the playoffs and made that the passing/failing grade.
By the way, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Hockey is a game defined by wins and losses. In the giant playoff scoreboard, the Panthers lost. Losing is failure.

Also, success or failure is all relative. According to you, making the playoffs is a success. But if Boston or San Jose get bounced out of the playoffs in the first round thats not a success. So you see, its relative, and certainly not simply black and white as you suggest.

[Wait a Minute]

Potvin wrote:

<quoted text> Also, success or failure is all relative. According to you, making the playoffs is a success. But if Boston or San Jose get bounced out of the playoffs in the first round thats not a success. So you see, its relative, and certainly not simply black and white as you suggest.

First, if Boston or San Jose had missed the playoffs, their seasons would have been massive failures. As for getting bounced early, yes, that would be a failure. But the "relative" nature is simply a reflection of the bar being set higher for those teams, as they have already reached other levels of success. It is now expected of them to be able to beat an 8 seed.

For the Panthers the bar was set at making the playoffs. They failed. But for San Jose, Boston, Detroit, etc., setting the bar at only making the playoffs is ridiculously low.

[Potvin]

Wait a Minute wrote:

<quoted text>
First, if Boston or San Jose had missed the playoffs, their seasons would have been massive failures. As for getting bounced early, yes, that would be a failure. But the "relative" nature is simply a reflection of the bar being set higher for those teams, as they have already reached other levels of success. It is now expected of them to be able to beat an 8 seed.
For the Panthers the bar was set at making the playoffs. They failed. But for San Jose, Boston, Detroit, etc., setting the bar at only making the playoffs is ridiculously low.

Good to see you finally agree with me.

[Wait a Minute]

Potvin wrote:

<quoted text> Good to see you finally agree with me.

Not necessarily. The Panthers failed because the didn't make the playoffs. That is where the bar was set for the Panthers. The expectation was lower than for other teams. The pass/fail grade for teams like Boston, San Jose & Detroit hasn't been determined yet. If they make it past the first round, it's a moderate success - and consequently if they lose in the first round they will have failed this season. The expectation is much higher for them. And to tell you truth, if any of them get knocked out in the second round, their management/ownership will consider it to be a failure as well.

If you still want to argue that for a team like the Panthers not making the playoffs was not a failure, then take a look at what Steve Tambellini said after firing MacTavish:

"We need a new voice. We need a new start. We need new expectations. We need a new discipline and it's time to look forward."

It is all about expectations - where you set the bar. For Edmonton, after finishing 9th last season and missing the playoffs by one spot, the bar was set at making the playoffs. The bar for the Panthers was that same expectation - making the playoffs.

[Potvin]

Wait a Minute wrote:

<quoted text>
Not necessarily. The Panthers failed because the didn't make the playoffs. That is where the bar was set for the Panthers. The expectation was lower than for other teams. The pass/fail grade for teams like Boston, San Jose & Detroit hasn't been determined yet. If they make it past the first round, it's a moderate success - and consequently if they lose in the first round they will have failed this season. The expectation is much higher for them. And to tell you truth, if any of them get knocked out in the second round, their management/ownership will consider it to be a failure as well.
If you still want to argue that for a team like the Panthers not making the playoffs was not a failure, then take a look at what Steve Tambellini said after firing MacTavish:
"We need a new voice. We need a new start. We need new expectations. We need a new discipline and it's time to look forward."
It is all about expectations - where you set the bar. For Edmonton, after finishing 9th last season and missing the playoffs by one spot, the bar was set at making the playoffs. The bar for the Panthers was that same expectation - making the playoffs.

The Panthers best season in years and major improvement from the previous year is far from failure. They are making progress. Clearly, they were much improved without the selfish Jokinen, adding Ballard, DeBoer, and with the play of Booth and Anderson.

[Jack Tupp]

Wait a Minute wrote:

<quoted text>
Not necessarily. The Panthers failed because the didn't make the playoffs. That is where the bar was set for the Panthers. The expectation was lower than for other teams. The pass/fail grade for teams like Boston, San Jose & Detroit hasn't been determined yet. If they make it past the first round, it's a moderate success - and consequently if they lose in the first round they will have failed this season. The expectation is much higher for them. And to tell you truth, if any of them get knocked out in the second round, their management/ownership will consider it to be a failure as well.
If you still want to argue that for a team like the Panthers not making the playoffs was not a failure, then take a look at what Steve Tambellini said after firing MacTavish:
"We need a new voice. We need a new start. We need new expectations. We need a new discipline and it's time to look forward."
It is all about expectations - where you set the bar. For Edmonton, after finishing 9th last season and missing the playoffs by one spot, the bar was set at making the playoffs. The bar for the Panthers was that same expectation - making the playoffs.

Actually, MacT said prior to the season that not only would the Oilers make the playoffs, they would contend for the division lead. He created an expectation then failed miserably.

[Wait a Minute]

Potvin wrote:

<quoted text> The Panthers best season in years and major improvement from the previous year is far from failure. They are making progress. Clearly, they were much improved without the selfish Jokinen, adding Ballard, DeBoer, and with the play of Booth and Anderson.

The best season in years merely reflects how poor the previous seasons have been. And I would hardly call moving from 11th place to 9th place a "major" improvement. As for making progress, what does that mean when you record your 9th straight season without a playoff berth? How meaningful is that progress - when it means only moving up 2 spots in the conference? After all, we are not talking about a team that was in a rebuilding mode. We are talking about a team that set the expectation at making the playoffs. It was an openly stated promise to the fans. And they failed to make good on that promise - which is where the organization itself set the bar.

As for Anderson - how meaningful is that going to be for next season when he leaves as a UFA. If he leaves, there is no net progress to build upon next season. And if they trade Vokoun and sign Anderson, not only is there the risk that he can't perform as well with the #1 label, but they may not have the strong tandem that aided them to achieve just a 9th place finish.

[Potvin]

Wait a Minute wrote:

<quoted text>
The best season in years merely reflects how poor the previous seasons have been. And I would hardly call moving from 11th place to 9th place a "major" improvement. As for making progress, what does that mean when you record your 9th straight season without a playoff berth? How meaningful is that progress - when it means only moving up 2 spots in the conference? After all, we are not talking about a team that was in a rebuilding mode. We are talking about a team that set the expectation at making the playoffs. It was an openly stated promise to the fans. And they failed to make good on that promise - which is where the organization itself set the bar.
As for Anderson - how meaningful is that going to be for next season when he leaves as a UFA. If he leaves, there is no net progress to build upon next season. And if they trade Vokoun and sign Anderson, not only is there the risk that he can't perform as well with the #1 label, but they may not have the strong tandem that aided them to achieve just a 9th place finish.

You could clearly see the improvement from the 3rd period collapses of last year....not to mention the better record plus more points. And I think the Panthers would've finished in 6th place and made the playoffs in the west. And as for Anderson, assuming that he's gone is pure speculation on your part. Pesonally, I dont see how they can let Anderson walk. Hopefully, they trade Vokoun for some offense and keep Anderson.

[Jack Tupp]

Potvin wrote:

<quoted text> You could clearly see the improvement from the 3rd period collapses of last year....not to mention the better record plus more points. And I think the Panthers would've finished in 6th place and made the playoffs in the west. And as for Anderson, assuming that he's gone is pure speculation on your part. Pesonally, I dont see how they can let Anderson walk. Hopefully, they trade Vokoun for some offense and keep Anderson.

6th in the West? The Panthers point total was padded by playing the likes of Atlanta and TB six games apiece.

[Potvin]

Jack Tupp wrote:

<quoted text>
6th in the West? The Panthers point total was padded by playing the likes of Atlanta and TB six games apiece.

HAHA. The Panthers point total would be padded by the likes of Phoeniz, Colorado, and LA in the west.

[Jack Tupp]

Potvin wrote:

<quoted text> HAHA. The Panthers point total would be padded by the likes of Phoeniz, Colorado, and LA in the west.

I was talking about your division, but spin it however you want...

Doug Riesbrough has been turfed as GM in Minnesota. JM is probably mum on potential moves because he's likely next in the line of fire...

[Wait a Minute]

Potvin wrote:

<quoted text> You could clearly see the improvement from the 3rd period collapses of last year....not to mention the better record plus more points. And I think the Panthers would've finished in 6th place and made the playoffs in the west. And as for Anderson, assuming that he's gone is pure speculation on your part. Pesonally, I dont see how they can let Anderson walk. Hopefully, they trade Vokoun for some offense and keep Anderson.

Yes, the 3rd period collapse problem was much better this year, though the main reason for it was that they stopped playing Martin's system - which was essentially a sit-back trap. Coaching was the key to having fewer collapses.

You don't see how they can let Anderson walk? Simple, he is a UFA and has said he will sign only with a team that will make him the #1 goalie. The Panthers can't do that so easily. They have Vokoun under contract to the tune of $5.7 million for the next two years. And trading him and that contract won't be so easy. But you also seem to think Anderson as the starter is a slam dunk. Nothing could be farther from the truth. He has not proven he can handle the #1 role. So even if the Panthers move Vokoun, it is fraught with risk.

As for saying that they would have been 6th in the West, that is nonsense. The West was no easier, and probably much tougher than the East this season. You have 4 teams with 100 plus point totals, including Detroit, San Jose and Chicago, plus Vancouver right at the 100 mark. The East also had 2 teams with point totals in the 60's, including the league worst Islanders at 61 points(who the Panthers struggled against).

[Potvin]

Jack Tupp wrote:

<quoted text>
I was talking about your division, but spin it however you want...

Yes...so you want to spin it to put them in the toughest division in hockey.... too funny.

[Potvin]

Wait a Minute wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, the 3rd period collapse problem was much better this year, though the main reason for it was that they stopped playing Martin's system - which was essentially a sit-back trap. Coaching was the key to having fewer collapses.
You don't see how they can let Anderson walk? Simple, he is a UFA and has said he will sign only with a team that will make him the #1 goalie. The Panthers can't do that so easily. They have Vokoun under contract to the tune of $5.7 million for the next two years. And trading him and that contract won't be so easy. But you also seem to think Anderson as the starter is a slam dunk. Nothing could be farther from the truth. He has not proven he can handle the #1 role. So even if the Panthers move Vokoun, it is fraught with risk.
As for saying that they would have been 6th in the West, that is nonsense. The West was no easier, and probably much tougher than the East this season. You have 4 teams with 100 plus point totals, including Detroit, San Jose and Chicago, plus Vancouver right at the 100 mark. The East also had 2 teams with point totals in the 60's, including the league worst Islanders at 61 points(who the Panthers struggled against).

You're entitled to your opinion , but I think you're wrong on all counts as you were wrong on Jokinen, who's dissapearing act, selfishness, and lack of any wimper of defense was a huge part of the late collapses. And I'm sure Anderson will thrive in the starting role. Hopefully, we'll find out who's right if he starts next year, hopefully for the Cats.

[Wait a Minute]

Potvin wrote:

<quoted text> You're entitled to your opinion , but I think you're wrong on all counts as you were wrong on Jokinen, who's dissapearing act, selfishness, and lack of any wimper of defense was a huge part of the late collapses. And I'm sure Anderson will thrive in the starting role. Hopefully, we'll find out who's right if he starts next year, hopefully for the Cats.

We'll see about Jokinen as the playoffs progress. No one doubts his talent. It's his attitude that is in question and that attitude suffered greatly because of his relationship with Martin. As a pro he should have risen above it, but some guys can't do that so well.

But the Anderson issue is pretty well cut and dried. He is an unrestricted free agent and he will go where the money and a starting slot are. The Panthers are commited to Vokoun for 2 more years at $5.7 million - which is at the upper end of the spectrum for good (not elite) goalies. Those are incontrovertable facts.

[Wait a Minute]

Potvin wrote:

<quoted text> HAHA. The Panthers point total would be padded by the likes of Phoeniz, Colorado, and LA in the west.

But that would be mitigated by having to play Detroit, Chicago and San Jose on a regular basis, as well as Vancouver and Calgary. And even though the Wild missed the playoffs they were no picnic to play against this season, giving up the fewest goals in the entire Western Conference. As a whole (speaking collectively), the West was the tougher conference

[Potvin]

Wait a Minute wrote:

<quoted text>
We'll see about Jokinen as the playoffs progress. No one doubts his talent. It's his attitude that is in question and that attitude suffered greatly because of his relationship with Martin. As a pro he should have risen above it, but some guys can't do that so well.
But the Anderson issue is pretty well cut and dried. He is an unrestricted free agent and he will go where the money and a starting slot are. The Panthers are commited to Vokoun for 2 more years at $5.7 million - which is at the upper end of the spectrum for good (not elite) goalies. Those are incontrovertable facts.

Vokoun can always be traded and there's a good possibility of that. Jokinen's just a disease that hurt both the Panthers and the Coyotes.

[Potvin]

Wait a Minute wrote:

<quoted text>
But that would be mitigated by having to play Detroit, Chicago and San Jose on a regular basis, as well as Vancouver and Calgary. And even though the Wild missed the playoffs they were no picnic to play against this season, giving up the fewest goals in the entire Western Conference. As a whole (speaking collectively), the West was the tougher conference

I dont know about that . Boston had the best goal differntial by far.