Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday 69,922
Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family. Full Story

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66415 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Is this different than arguing about Judaism or anything from the Old Testament?
Fair is fair.
Actually, it is different.

Because Hughbe is supposedly basing his notion of a messiah on prophecy (i.e. references) on the OT, but to resolve the contradiction between his messiah and the prophecy he has to rely on information from the NT. Basically he has to discard the internal logic of the system he pretends to embrace, and receive and externality, AND THEN go back to the original system. Its intellectually dishonest.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66416 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, he did kind of talk (and sing) with his hands.
But of course you are wrong (again).
Merriam-Webster:
Jew noun \&#712;jü\
: someone whose religion is Judaism, who is descended from Jewish people, OR who participates in the culture surrounding Judaism
[note that only ONE of the above conditions need be met for the label to apply, making Sammy a Jew as I originally stated]
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jew
I accept your surrender and apology. And you still did not respond to my earlier post.
Skulk away quietly and sheepishly.
ethno-religious thingie again.

Jews have been accepting converts for ages. Ruth in the bible.

Whether our descent has been (in)consistently matrilineal or patrilineal (which he spends most of his post on) is a red herring at best and a straw argument at worst.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66417 Jan 27, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, it is different.
Because Hughbe is supposedly basing his notion of a messiah on prophecy (i.e. references) on the OT, but to resolve the contradiction between his messiah and the prophecy he has to rely on information from the NT. Basically he has to discard the internal logic of the system he pretends to embrace, and receive and externality, AND THEN go back to the original system. Its intellectually dishonest.
One could argue that religion itself is on intellectually shaky ground.

Is his point that Jesus was Jewish? And therefore what? His followers are Jewish? Like him?

It's difficult for me to follow his reasoning.(Go figure!)

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66418 Jan 27, 2014
HughBe wrote:
Step 1--- Did Jesus have Gentile blood? NO
Incorrect. Gentile refers to non-Israelites. If I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that Jesus was sired by God (a BIG if...), then he most certainly had Gentile blood, since God is NOT an Israelite.
HughBe wrote:
Step 2--- Was Mary a Jew? YES
Step 3--- Was Mary a JEW with David's bloodline? YES
Your only source of knowledge of Jesus' geneology is the NT. However, the NT gives conflicting geneologies (in the Gospels of Luke and Matthew),

"Both gospels state that Jesus was fathered, not by Joseph, but by God, being born to Mary through a virgin birth. At the same time they claim a direct descent from David, and thus a legal inheritance of the throne. The lists are identical between Abraham and David, but differ radically from that point onward. Traditional Christian scholars have put forward various theories that seek to explain why the lineages are so different, such as that Matthew's account follows the lineage of Joseph, while Luke's follows the lineage of Mary.

Many Biblical scholars tend to see these genealogies as inventions, conforming to Jewish literary convention." ".( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jes... )
HughBe wrote:
Step 4--- Was Mary Jesus' BIOLOGICAL mother? YES
Step 5--- Given that Mary was Jesus' BIOLOGICAL mother He must have had her JEWISH chromosomes thus making Him a Jew.
Granted. If Mary was Jesus' mother, he shares her chromosones. But we're talking paternal heritage, not maternal.
HughBe wrote:
Step 6-- Understand this basic science. All persons not including Adam, Eve and Jesus have Chromosomes from TWO parents.
Only assuming the accounts in the OT/NT are an accurate, literal account of a historical fact, and not a bunch of made up stories or allegories, as I (and many religious scholars) believe it is. What is more likely to those of us that are reasonable, rational people is that Mary most likely had a pre-marital "encounter" with Joseph, or perhaps some other studly man from her village, or possibly even with a Roman soldier. Those earthly explanations make far more sense than a virgin birth. Let's keep Occam's razor in perspective ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam 's_razor).
HughBe wrote:
Step 7-- The Genes of the father are esteemed ABOVE the genes of the mother but the child has both sets of genes and not even in ancient times would people deny that a child is the product of both parents. Now, in the case of Jesus the Christ, He had the genes of His mother. There are no genes from any father Jewish or otherwise and so there is no male genes that can be ESTEEMED above that of Mary. The genes of Mary then serves to give Jesus His Jewish IDENTITY as there is not another set of human genes to make it otherwise.
Congratulations. Your logical fallacy is...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-plea...

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66420 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
One could argue that religion itself is on intellectually shaky ground.
Is his point that Jesus was Jewish? And therefore what? His followers are Jewish? Like him?
It's difficult for me to follow his reasoning.(Go figure!)
When someone bases his worldview on the literal interpretation of a book of allegories (whose stories are inconsistent at best), is it any surprise that his "reasoning" is difficult to follow?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66421 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
One could argue that religion itself is on intellectually shaky ground.
Is his point that Jesus was Jewish? And therefore what? His followers are Jewish? Like him?
It's difficult for me to follow his reasoning.(Go figure!)
From my POV its not about absolute truth, but logic.

Hughe has bought into the OT rules of engagement. Which stipulate that the messiah has to be a descendant of (King) David. The OT obviously does not address his geneology (it doesnt even address him).

So Hugh has to go to the NT. Which of course I would not accept under any circumstances. But even if I was to accept it, it is contradictory on the question. So, in summary, Hugh has to go OUTSIDE the system (the OT), and even then still cant use the NT for the above reasons.

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66422 Jan 27, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
From my POV its not about absolute truth, but logic.
Hughe has bought into the OT rules of engagement. Which stipulate that the messiah has to be a descendant of (King) David. The OT obviously does not address his geneology (it doesnt even address him).
So Hugh has to go to the NT. Which of course I would not accept under any circumstances. But even if I was to accept it, it is contradictory on the question. So, in summary, Hugh has to go OUTSIDE the system (the OT), and even then still cant use the NT for the above reasons.
It's not outside the system for him. Or any Christian for that matter.(And that's by definition what he is, despite what he calls himself.)

It seems Huggy fancies himself a sort of hybrid Jew-Christian, hence he feels free to draw from the front and back of the book to support his notions. Christians don't see the two as contradictory. Do you agree?(Obviously not with them but that is in fact their view.)

Do you agree with this?:

In the Hebrew Bible, it is written that a human descendant of David will occupy the throne of a restored kingdom and usher in a messianic age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David#Judaism

And this?:

Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically,[e] although there is little agreement on the reliability of the gospel narratives and how closely the biblical Jesus reflects the historical Jesus.[19] Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher or rabbi from Galilee who preached his message orally,[20] was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

It's his lineage that you and Huggybear disagree on?

This would go along with what most Jews I know say - that Jesus likely existed and was a mystic etc - just not the anointed one.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66423 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not outside the system for him. Or any Christian for that matter.(And that's by definition what he is, despite what he calls himself.)
It seems Huggy fancies himself a sort of hybrid Jew-Christian, hence he feels free to draw from the front and back of the book to support his notions. Christians don't see the two as contradictory. Do you agree?(Obviously not with them but that is in fact their view.).
I fully understand. However, he was basing his argument on OT originally. The idea being that we couldnt understand our own text properly. If he wants to change his approach, fine. However, that eliminates my participation in this entire discussion as obviously I would never agree.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>Do you agree with this?:
In the Hebrew Bible, it is written that a human descendant of David will occupy the throne of a restored kingdom and usher in a messianic age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David#Judaism
And this?:
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically,[e] although there is little agreement on the reliability of the gospel narratives and how closely the biblical Jesus reflects the historical Jesus.[19] Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher or rabbi from Galilee who preached his message orally,[20] was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
It's his lineage that you and Huggybear disagree on?
This would go along with what most Jews I know say - that Jesus likely existed and was a mystic etc - just not the anointed one.
Yes to all of those, that has been my view all along.

Though there are other Jews here that take a more hardline approach and question the historical Jesus as well. I am agnostic on the issue.

However, I direct you to a recent work by Shmuelly Boteach - called "Kosher Jesus" - which advocates the acceptance of the historical Jesus by Jews in an effort to rightfully take possession of some (or all) of his views - somewhat out of pride and somewhat to keep Christian arrogance and anti-semitism in check. Boteach is an orthodox rabbi and he got roasted from within the orthodox rabbinical community for this book (mainly by even broaching the name), but I think more liberal Jews might be more receptive to at least debating the merits and disadvantages of his approach.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66424 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not outside the system for him. Or any Christian for that matter.(And that's by definition what he is, despite what he calls himself.)
It seems Huggy fancies himself a sort of hybrid Jew-Christian, hence he feels free to draw from the front and back of the book to support his notions. Christians don't see the two as contradictory. Do you agree?(Obviously not with them but that is in fact their view.)
Do you agree with this?:
In the Hebrew Bible, it is written that a human descendant of David will occupy the throne of a restored kingdom and usher in a messianic age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David#Judaism
And this?:
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed historically,[e] although there is little agreement on the reliability of the gospel narratives and how closely the biblical Jesus reflects the historical Jesus.[19] Most scholars agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher or rabbi from Galilee who preached his message orally,[20] was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus
It's his lineage that you and Huggybear disagree on?
This would go along with what most Jews I know say - that Jesus likely existed and was a mystic etc - just not the anointed one.
I'm currently reading "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" by Reza Aslan (The guy who got slammed on Fox for being a Muslim writing about Jesus). To me, the most interesting part of the book is simply understanding the historical events of the time. However, the picture he attempts to draw of Jesus is, by necessity, much speculation based on information gleamed from the four gospels, which he goes into great detail on how unreliable they are. He paints a picture of Jesus as a roaming preacher / mystic (very common for the times) who is hell-bent on fighting against the perceived corruption of the Jewish nobility and high priests who were in bed with the Roman occupiers. Most of the book is not controversial and is very much in line with the current thinking of most biblical scholars and 1st century historians.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66425 Jan 27, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm currently reading "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" by Reza Aslan (The guy who got slammed on Fox for being a Muslim writing about Jesus). To me, the most interesting part of the book is simply understanding the historical events of the time. However, the picture he attempts to draw of Jesus is, by necessity, much speculation based on information gleamed from the four gospels, which he goes into great detail on how unreliable they are. He paints a picture of Jesus as a roaming preacher / mystic (very common for the times) who is hell-bent on fighting against the perceived corruption of the Jewish nobility and high priests who were in bed with the Roman occupiers. Most of the book is not controversial and is very much in line with the current thinking of most biblical scholars and 1st century historians.
I remember this guy and the book from an appearance on the Daily Show last month.

Jon Stewart gave him much fairer treatment than Fox did:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-decembe...

I like his one statement on the show. The book "would be the perfect Christmas
gift for your Jewish friends." Funny.(Stewart's birth name is Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz.)

The book sounds interesting. It sounds like Christianity started is a backlash against Judaism and the status quo.(And in turn Protestantism another backlash against Catholicism.)

It's all endlessly fascinating to me. Strong convictions about religion so incredibly widely held across the world. Fighting and killing words. So much power, the Pope etc. So much reverence, so much hate, so much love, distrust, suspicion, passion.....and so on.

And what is it all based on? Fascinating.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66426 Jan 27, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I fully understand. However, he was basing his argument on OT originally. The idea being that we couldnt understand our own text properly. If he wants to change his approach, fine. However, that eliminates my participation in this entire discussion as obviously I would never agree.
What is the "contradiction between his messiah and the prophecy" from the OT?
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes to all of those, that has been my view all along.
Though there are other Jews here that take a more hardline approach and question the historical Jesus as well. I am agnostic on the issue.
However, I direct you to a recent work by Shmuelly Boteach - called "Kosher Jesus" - which advocates the acceptance of the historical Jesus by Jews in an effort to rightfully take possession of some (or all) of his views - somewhat out of pride and somewhat to keep Christian arrogance and anti-semitism in check. Boteach is an orthodox rabbi and he got roasted from within the orthodox rabbinical community for this book (mainly by even broaching the name), but I think more liberal Jews might be more receptive to at least debating the merits and disadvantages of his approach.
I get it. Sort of like stealing the Christian thunder!:)

I had a good Jewish friend in Philadelphia (since deceased sadly) who was actually a big fan of JC. He really liked his teachings and the whole Jesus thing. This fella was a child of the 60s and could be described as an aging Jewish Jesus Freak. I miss him.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66427 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
What is the "contradiction between his messiah and the prophecy" from the OT?
.
http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

See 2B - Descendant of David

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66428 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I remember this guy and the book from an appearance on the Daily Show last month.
Jon Stewart gave him much fairer treatment than Fox did:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-decembe...
I like his one statement on the show. The book "would be the perfect Christmas
gift for your Jewish friends." Funny.(Stewart's birth name is Jonathan Stuart Leibowitz.)
The book sounds interesting. It sounds like Christianity started is a backlash against Judaism and the status quo.(And in turn Protestantism another backlash against Catholicism.)
It's all endlessly fascinating to me. Strong convictions about religion so incredibly widely held across the world. Fighting and killing words. So much power, the Pope etc. So much reverence, so much hate, so much love, distrust, suspicion, passion.....and so on.
And what is it all based on? Fascinating.
The key is "reform". As in Reform Judaism (i.e. Jesus was a reform rabbi of the time), or as in Reformation in later Christianity. Dissonance is arguably a natural phenomena.

Jewish Joke: Two Jews - Three opinions, three synagogues...
(I have seen this myself)
(Also - true story: Until recently there were only two Jews left in Afghanistan. And they refused to speak to each other. Now I think there are none.)

By the way - Jesus's admonitions against "empty" ritual in favor for ethics was hardly unique (the basis for latter day Christianity). A thousand plus years before him several prophets in the OT/Tanach had the EXACT same message. For example Isaiah.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66429 Jan 27, 2014
My lord - we are actually ON topic!~
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66430 Jan 27, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html
See 2B - Descendant of David
I see. That pretty well would rule JC out, anyway you look at it.

Is this why Huggy won't name his religion of choice?

Because it's an ill-defined mishmash [Middle English & Yiddish]?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66431 Jan 27, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The key is "reform". As in Reform Judaism (i.e. Jesus was a reform rabbi of the time), or as in Reformation in later Christianity. Dissonance is arguably a natural phenomena.
Jewish Joke: Two Jews - Three opinions, three synagogues...
(I have seen this myself)
(Also - true story: Until recently there were only two Jews left in Afghanistan. And they refused to speak to each other. Now I think there are none.)
By the way - Jesus's admonitions against "empty" ritual in favor for ethics was hardly unique (the basis for latter day Christianity). A thousand plus years before him several prophets in the OT/Tanach had the EXACT same message. For example Isaiah.
Like the Golden Rule. Probably something we can all agree on (in some form or another):

Rushworth Kidder notes that the Golden Rule can be found in the early contributions of Confucianism (551–479 BC). Kidder notes that this concept's framework appears prominently in many religions, including "Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and the rest of the world's major religions".[7] According to Greg M. Epstein, "&#8201;'do unto others'... is a concept that essentially no religion misses entirely."[8] Simon Blackburn also states that the Golden Rule can be "found in some form in almost every ethical tradition".[9] All versions and forms of the proverbial Golden Rule have one aspect in common: they all demand that people treat others in a manner in which they themselves would like to be treated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

From the same source: my Libertarian father-in-law (and ATF would probably agree) prefer
the negative version:

One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated (Negative form, also known as the Silver Rule).

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66432 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Like the Golden Rule. Probably something we can all agree on (in some form or another):
Rushworth Kidder notes that the Golden Rule can be found in the early contributions of Confucianism (551–479 BC). Kidder notes that this concept's framework appears prominently in many religions, including "Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, and the rest of the world's major religions".[7] According to Greg M. Epstein, "&#8201;'do unto others'... is a concept that essentially no religion misses entirely."[8] Simon Blackburn also states that the Golden Rule can be "found in some form in almost every ethical tradition".[9] All versions and forms of the proverbial Golden Rule have one aspect in common: they all demand that people treat others in a manner in which they themselves would like to be treated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
From the same source: my Libertarian father-in-law (and ATF would probably agree) prefer
the negative version:
One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated (Negative form, also known as the Silver Rule).
Even that Jesus adapted from the existing Jewish text

Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
—Leviticus 19:18

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66433 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I see. That pretty well would rule JC out, anyway you look at it.
Is this why Huggy won't name his religion of choice?
Because it's an ill-defined mishmash [Middle English & Yiddish]?
He wont name his religion because he almost despises his fellow Christians as much as he despises us Jews. See the pattern? Who he really despises is himself.

(hint hint - needs to wear his tights in public more often)

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66434 Jan 27, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>I see. That pretty well would rule JC out, anyway you look at it.

Is this why Huggy won't name his religion of choice?

Because it's an ill-defined mishmash [Middle English & Yiddish]?
It's mishmosh. The other is the Anglicization of the Yiddish.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66436 Jan 27, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Even that Jesus adapted from the existing Jewish text
Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
—Leviticus 19:18
The Sermon on the Mount is a beautiful thing.

The Beatitudes etc. Good stuff.

If not mistaken, isn't Hinduism the oldest religion (still in practice that is)?:

Hinduism[edit]

One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires.

—Brihaspati, Mahabharata (Anusasana Parva, Section CXIII, Verse 8)[55]

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Fort Bayard Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
A Possible Situation? Oct 13 yankeedudell 3
Dr. Twana Sparks (Dec '09) Oct 13 yankeedudell 47
Forgery Cover up by GCSO Oct 13 Nick Jonas 2
Grant Co.---rotten corner of NM (Sep '11) Sep 29 Insect Trust 32
WNMU students graduate from Police Academy (Jun '10) Sep 20 Really 8
To ban or not to ban - the future of plastic ba... Sep 20 Really 12
Silver City-Grant County Chamber of Commerce me... Jun '14 input needed 1
Fort Bayard Dating
Find my Match

Fort Bayard Jobs

Fort Bayard People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

Fort Bayard News, Events & Info

Click for news, events and info in Fort Bayard

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]