Christian conference message mobilize...

Christian conference message mobilizes gay-rights groups

There are 117 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Jul 13, 2008, titled Christian conference message mobilizes gay-rights groups. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

Comments on Topix forums : Jaye Thomas walked away from what he calls "a life of secret homosexuality." Today he lives his life as a heterosexual man, an accomplishment for which he gives much credit to Exodus ...

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“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#101 Jul 16, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text>Last time I checked, it's the muslim's killing in the name of Allah. If you'll check, the crusades ended centuries ago
Yes, many people who claim to be religious (Muslim, Christian, whatever) go to war and kill other people. They may pray, they may claim 'God is on our side' and they may go to church on Sunday. Then they go out and bomb their bretheren. Our nation -- which many claim is a Christian nation -- is still bombing and killing other people under the auspices of "God and Country." Where did Jesus teach us to do this?

“Ride free”

Since: Nov 07

Asheville

#102 Jul 16, 2008
AshevilleNative wrote:
<quoted text>
What people like to leave out in this passage is the fact that the holier than thou religious types -- the scribes and Pharisees -- told Jesus what the law was.(In this case, the law of Moses.) They asked him if they should follow the law. And his response to them was what? The person who is without sin should stone her. And which person is that? No one. Then he said to her: "Neither do I condemn thee."
Jesus did not condemn her. He did not judge her. He pointed out that no man has the authority to judge another. And he didn't keep harping on sin, guilt, shame, evil, sin, guilt, shame, evil like so many Christians today do. Rather, go on your way and live in the light of God. Period.
So, again, the more you focus on sin -- your sin, their sin, what someone else is doing that you think is a sin, what someone else might do that could possibly be a sin, what they used to do that is a sin, how they are going to be cast into everlasting hell because they are sinners, how God will punish them because they are sinners -- you focus your life on all that is not God. You are judging others when Jesus clearly taught the Holier-Than-Thou types that it is not their place to judge others. Could it be that, as you keep judging others, pointing out to them over and over again how THEY are sinning, Jesus would also say to you, judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned; then go and sin no more?
Excellent post.

“Like any other man,but more so”

Since: Sep 07

Cimmeria

#103 Jul 16, 2008
AshevilleNative wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, many people who claim to be religious (Muslim, Christian, whatever) go to war and kill other people. They may pray, they may claim 'God is on our side' and they may go to church on Sunday. Then they go out and bomb their bretheren. Our nation -- which many claim is a Christian nation -- is still bombing and killing other people under the auspices of "God and Country." Where did Jesus teach us to do this?
Where,pray tell, have you heard anybody say this war is "for God", maybe country, but I've heard no one, NO ONE, bring God into it from our side. Maybe you're just trying to stir up anti- christian sentiment.

“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#104 Jul 16, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text> Maybe you're just trying to stir up anti- christian sentiment.
I am Christian, damskippy.

“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#105 Jul 16, 2008
US Biker wrote:
<quoted text>Excellent post.
Thanks, US Biker.
Edward

Cullowhee, NC

#106 Jul 16, 2008
AshevilleNative wrote:
<quoted text>
What people like to leave out in this passage is the fact that the holier than thou religious types -- the scribes and Pharisees -- told Jesus what the law was.(In this case, the law of Moses.) They asked him if they should follow the law. And his response to them was what? The person who is without sin should stone her. And which person is that? No one. Then he said to her: "Neither do I condemn thee."
Jesus did not condemn her. He did not judge her. He pointed out that no man has the authority to judge another. And he didn't keep harping on sin, guilt, shame, evil, sin, guilt, shame, evil like so many Christians today do. Rather, go on your way and live in the light of God. Period.
So, again, the more you focus on sin -- your sin, their sin, what someone else is doing that you think is a sin, what someone else might do that could possibly be a sin, what they used to do that is a sin, how they are going to be cast into everlasting hell because they are sinners, how God will punish them because they are sinners -- you focus your life on all that is not God. You are judging others when Jesus clearly taught the Holier-Than-Thou types that it is not their place to judge others. Could it be that, as you keep judging others, pointing out to them over and over again how THEY are sinning, Jesus would also say to you, judge not, and ye shall not be judged; condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned; then go and sin no more?
Wrong, because they had the law incorrect. The punishment for adultery involved the stoning of both of the guilty parties:

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death (Leviticus 20:10)

So they were perverting justice, the law, by only bringing the adulteress to be stoned and not the adulterer. Jesus knew this. Would He have allowed her to stoned if the adulterer was also presented for stoning? Possibly, but probably not as He was giving a foreshadowing of the grace to come under His name and showing how they were just as sinful and thinking themselves to be righteous. You're still ignoring the fact that Jesus told her to sin no more.

"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." (John 8:11)

Why did he tell her to leave her life of sin? Was Jesus focused too much on sin?

“Like any other man,but more so”

Since: Sep 07

Cimmeria

#107 Jul 16, 2008
AshevilleNative wrote:
<quoted text>
I am Christian, damskippy.
Then why would you lie about Americans fighting in the name of God?
goforth

Asheville, NC

#108 Jul 16, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text>Then why would you lie about Americans fighting in the name of God?
Why would people who are Christian go kill people?

“Like any other man,but more so”

Since: Sep 07

Cimmeria

#109 Jul 17, 2008
goforth wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would people who are Christian go kill people?
My point to Asheville native was that he proclaimed that we went to fight in Iraq for "God and country". I can think of no one making that assertion. Plenty of Christians have gone off to wars, but I don't recall any one, in this particular instance, saying they were doing it in the name of God.

“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#110 Jul 17, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text>My point to Asheville native was that he proclaimed that we went to fight in Iraq for "God and country". I can think of no one making that assertion. Plenty of Christians have gone off to wars, but I don't recall any one, in this particular instance, saying they were doing it in the name of God.
I've personally known many Christians who strongly believed they were fighting for God and country when they went to war -- from men in WWII to Viet Nam to Iraq. They believed they were fighting against evil (that which is against God and against Christianity) and they deeply believed that God was on their/our side in the war.

Even President George W. Bush has stated that he was doing God's bidding by sending our troops to invade Iraq. Bush said God told him to do it. See:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/i...

So, according to the Commander in Chief himself, God (the Christian diety) has directed him/us to go to war with another nation. And according to militant muslims, Allah (the Muslim diety) tells Muslims to go to war to defend their nation. Throughout history, people have used their diety as a justification to go to war and kill others. Its nothing new.

My point is, this isn't how Jesus taught us to live. Its the antithesis of how Jesus taught us to live.

“Like any other man,but more so”

Since: Sep 07

Cimmeria

#111 Jul 17, 2008
AshevilleNative wrote:
<quoted text>
I've personally known many Christians who strongly believed they were fighting for God and country when they went to war -- from men in WWII to Viet Nam to Iraq. They believed they were fighting against evil (that which is against God and against Christianity) and they deeply believed that God was on their/our side in the war.
Even President George W. Bush has stated that he was doing God's bidding by sending our troops to invade Iraq. Bush said God told him to do it. See:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/i...
So, according to the Commander in Chief himself, God (the Christian diety) has directed him/us to go to war with another nation. And according to militant muslims, Allah (the Muslim diety) tells Muslims to go to war to defend their nation. Throughout history, people have used their diety as a justification to go to war and kill others. Its nothing new.
My point is, this isn't how Jesus taught us to live. Its the antithesis of how Jesus taught us to live.
Your original post said that "our country went to war for God and country".Second hand quotes of what W. may or may not have said, by a member of the religion who is a vast majority of who we're fighting, is not the basis for why we went. We are not a "Christian Nation". We may have been founded on principles pertaining to Judeo/Christian teachings and there are references thereto in the founding documents, but that is a far cry from being a "Chritian Nation".
Might I remind you, the Good Lord said "....there will be wars, be not troubled, for these things MUST come to pass." Now I'm not saying Christ condoned war, but He did specify that they MUST happen. My point is that "God" was not used as a reason to go on our foray into Iraq. There were many reasons specified, but that wasn't one of them.God bless our troops, wherever they serve.

“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#112 Jul 17, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text>My point is that "God" was not used as a reason to go on our foray into Iraq.
According to President George W. Bush, God was the one who told him to do so. You'll have to take that up with the President, damskippy.

“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#113 Jul 17, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text>We are not a "Christian Nation".
I agree with that. We are a nation founded on freedom of religion. There are a vast number of different religions practiced by citizens of this nation. Even many of our founding fathers were Deist, not Christian.

“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#114 Jul 17, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text> God bless our troops, wherever they serve.
I believe He does. I believe He blesses all of us.

“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#115 Jul 17, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text>Might I remind you, the Good Lord said "....there will be wars, be not troubled, for these things MUST come to pass." Now I'm not saying Christ condoned war, but He did specify that they MUST happen.
Man has always warred with his brethren. As long as He exists, he probably always will. Its a common practice to use one's diety as the justification for going to war against others. I can only say, its not what Jesus teaches us. But many who say they are Christian either try to use Jesus' teachings to condone war or they ignore Jesus' teachings in order to conduct war.

I've met Christian men in the Army (Redstone Arsenal, Huntsville, Alabama) who are very clear that they believe this nation is fighting for God and country now. I've met Christian men from the Marine Corps (Camp LeJeune, North Carolina) who sincerely believed they were fighting for God and country. It was their honor to do so.

I've also known men who, because of their sincere belief in Christ and His teachings, were consiencious objectors during Viet Nam. I know those who will not join the military today for the same reason -- their belief in Jesus' teachings. So Christians have different beliefs about the "rightness" of going to war.

Sincere men may believe sincerely in what they're doing -- they just believe quite differently.

“Like any other man,but more so”

Since: Sep 07

Cimmeria

#116 Jul 17, 2008
AshevilleNative wrote:
<quoted text>
According to President George W. Bush, God was the one who told him to do so. You'll have to take that up with the President, damskippy.
My point exactly. W. IS NOT "the country" and when congress authorized the use of force, it made no mention of God. You refered to the nation collectively, perhaps you mis-spoke.
And do you really believe W. went to war because God told him to? Really....?Look at it another way, do you really think that if troops were ordered out of Iraq today, there'd be anybody in uniform saying "No, God's work isn't complete"? Really...?

“Dimensions Beyond Left & Right”

Since: Feb 07

Asheville

#117 Jul 17, 2008
damskippy wrote:
<quoted text>My point exactly. W. IS NOT "the country" and when congress authorized the use of force, it made no mention of God. You refered to the nation collectively, perhaps you mis-spoke.
Cleary, everyone in the nation does not believe in the "god on our side" approach. However, since George W. Bush is the President of the United States and the Commander in Chief, he represents both our nation and our military.
damskippy wrote:
And do you really believe W. went to war because God told him to? Really....?
I'm being honest when I say I don't know what to believe about George W. Bush. I can say he openly claims to be a very devout Bible believing Christian, he promotes Christianity, he promotes "faith based initiatives," and he speaks openly of God. He believes in prayer to God. So, I have to say, I have no reason to disbelieve that he thinks God spoke to him.
damskippy wrote:
Look at it another way, do you really think that if troops were ordered out of Iraq today, there'd be anybody in uniform saying "No, God's work isn't complete"? Really...?
I don't know what every single in person in uniform thinks or what each one would think in a "what if" situation. But apparently Bush, the Commander in Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces believes it is God's will for us to be fighting in the Middle East. He claims part of his policy in the Middle East is based on his religious beliefs regarding what God wants.

Here's another quote from President George W. Bush:

"I believe that God wants everybody to be free. That's what I believe. And that's one part of my foreign policy. In Afghanistan I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty. And I can't tell you how encouraged how I am to see freedom on the march. And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me. And religion is a part of me."
--Third Presidential Debate, Tempe, AZ, October 13, 2004

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