Question for police, our power to defend ourselves

Posted in the Florissant Forum

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Granny 80 and counting

Florissant, MO

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#2
Jul 12, 2012
 

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Reverend Vegas wrote:
Would YOU be troubled by openly armed citizens?
Obviously I'm not a law officer, but I'd like to answer that question anyway.

Yes I would be troubled. How would I know or anyone if the person carrying the sidearm was a legally licensed, stable individual? For that matter how would a law officer know? A person's appearance doesn't necessarily define their mental or moral state. A person could wear a thousand dollar suit and still do harm just like a young man wearing a hoodie could be a Rhodes Scholar on his way to school.

When you get to be my age you have learned you don't take anything at face value.

This isn't the Wild West, thank goodness.
JeffreyDennis

United States

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#3
Jul 12, 2012
 

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For starters I simply do not trust anyone who uses the term "thug". I know it is only a word but it is a term generally thrown about by those who would act without knowledge.
Mark B

Florissant, MO

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#4
Jul 12, 2012
 

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Personally I like the answer “this is not the wild west”, that’s cute.
Reverend Vegas, I do not believe it is up to the police to address the question you seek. They have a job to do and that is to uphold the laws that are in place. You may wish to seek “those” who establish the laws.
In regards to one’s dress attire. A friend of mine and myself were going to the indoor pistol range one Saturday, we are avid shooters, after I picked him up we were driving down Lindbergh to first stop and get a cup of coffee. We noticed along the way several people walking with your pants sagging down. We obviously made remarks to one another about their dress attire. I then realized he and I were both wearing our black no sleeve long shooting vests and I had remarked,“ what people may think of us when we stopped at the bread company for a cup of coffee”. Each of us were approached while standing in line from different people, wondering if we were going out to shoot guns. Simply by what we were wearing. They were not intimidated at all but obviously curious in a positive way. Possibly there were some (who dared not approach us) may have been intimidated. So I believe clothing does make a difference to viewers. But the question always remains “who the person is in the clothing”. Personally I prefer the concealed weapon position. I believe the bad guys odds are increasing as their potential victims just maybe carrying a bigger gun and most assuredly someone who is trained to use it.
I hope I never find out what it is like or have the experience to shoot and kill someone. But I know this, if I am faced with the situation “truly fearing for my life”, I will have no hesitation. That is the only thing needs to be reiterated.
Hunter

Florissant, MO

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#7
Jul 12, 2012
 
Rev, I am not a police officer but I can answer your questions. Do you have a concealed carry permit? I do. When you go through the class they teach you all this stuff.

Yes, there open carry is legale throughout the state (on the state level) but there are municiple laws (in the cities) that prohibit open carry. It just causes too much of a disturbance or panic amoungst non-gun owners...they fear what they don't understand. Anyway, if you are going to carry, it should be concealed. It's noone elses business but yours that you are armed. If you are interacting with a police officer in a traffice stop or otherwise, you should inform the officer that you are armed while keeping your hands visible and not making any sudden, stupid moves.
Hunter

Florissant, MO

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#8
Jul 12, 2012
 
You have the right to draw and use your weapon in defense of yourself or another person if you "reasonably suspect" that you are in fear for your life or are about to be the victim of any forcible felony. Just know this...if you use a firearm (or any lethal weapon for that matter) and kill someone while in defense of yourself, your property, or another person...you will be arrested. The police will take your weapon. You will be taken into custody and questioned. Hopefully you can prove that you were without a doubt in fear for your life. Ultimately, the police are not the ones who decide if you will be charged with a crime or not...that is the prosecuting attorney's job.
Hunter

Florissant, MO

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#9
Jul 12, 2012
 
You are wise to want to defend yourself. Police officers generally do a great job...but they can't be everywhere at all times.

If you are in a jam and you have just seconds to live...the police are minutes away...you do the math.
Pistol Packin Momma

Saint Peters, MO

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#10
Jul 13, 2012
 

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I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Granny 80 and counting

Florissant, MO

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#11
Jul 13, 2012
 

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Reverend Vegas wrote:
OK..so when I say "Thug" I mean someone who is actively pursuing you in a manner that is violating your safety. Not someone who wears their pants hanging off their ass. I think the people posting like they don't get that actually do get that but want to ignore it. So...let's make that clear.
As far as not concealing...it's freakin' hot out. I'd like to tote my side arm without the xtra layers.
If you mean by "get it" that you are referring to young black men who many people just assume are "thugs", then I don't "get it".

Not so long ago places including STL had there share of organized crime syndicates and the members were often referred to in the media as "thugs". Such people were not minorites nor did they appear to be of the criminal element although it was well known in our neigborhood (The Hill) who they were and what they did.

I stand by my original comment, I would definitely be leery of anyone not in official uniform of a police officer or maybe a security guard who was openly carrying a weapon. I realize that having a concealed weapon can be applicable to the issues I mentioned as well. But, someone who is not in someway connected to law enforcement doing such a thing would indicate to me that the person was expecting trouble or considering starting it. Is that biased? Yes Is that judgmental? Yes. Is that, IMO just good common sense to think that way? Yes.

It always amazes me how willing some people are to engage in violence. Should someone defend themselves if necessary, of course. Should someone deliberately and openly assume the character of aggressiveness, hostilty, etc? No. It is a fact that some gun totin' people often behave in such a manner, not all but many.

Violence begets violence that's another reality. I've lived in this world long enough to learn that the taking of a life is not a trivial thing no matter what life that may be. I know a lot of you disagree with that, and it's saddens me to know that.

And I would appreciate it if no one gives me the lecture about, if it happened to a member of my family or myself I'd feel different.
It has already happened, and I choose not to give details as it wouldn't be relevant to anyone not personally involved. No matter, the event did not change my idea that the majority of people of all races, cultures, and so forth are good people. And killing is never an answer to the problems facing us all.
Granny 80 and counting

Florissant, MO

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#12
Jul 13, 2012
 
Pistol Packin Momma wrote:
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Not being disrespectful, but I thank you for your comment which is a fine example of the way some people think about the seriousness of taking a life.
Voting 2012

Wentzville, MO

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#14
Jul 14, 2012
 
Hunter wrote:
Rev, I am not a police officer but I can answer your questions. Do you have a concealed carry permit? I do. When you go through the class they teach you all this stuff.
Yes, there open carry is legale throughout the state (on the state level) but there are municiple laws (in the cities) that prohibit open carry. It just causes too much of a disturbance or panic amoungst non-gun owners...they fear what they don't understand. Anyway, if you are going to carry, it should be concealed. It's noone elses business but yours that you are armed. If you are interacting with a police officer in a traffice stop or otherwise, you should inform the officer that you are armed while keeping your hands visible and not making any sudden, stupid moves.
Hunter is correct, I might add that there are many municipalities that still allow open carry. You may always open carry in your vehicle.
Proccw

Wentzville, MO

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#15
Jul 14, 2012
 
I open carry all the time in municipalities that allow open carry. I have never had a problem. I am also a small framed female, probably not much of a threat. Now my 6'2" 300lb husband may make some heads turn if he were to open carry. I live in Ofallon,Mo where open carry is allowed if you have a concealed carry license. I also have a weekend home in southeast Mo. Down there everyone is armed. No one even notices. If you go to texas you will see guns on nearly everyone's hip. There appears to be little concern to armed citizens in Texas. Just about anywhere you go there are armed citizens. Have you noticed granny in Walmart with a fanny pack? Chances are she is packin a big ole 1911. It is all a mindset,
I noticed a poster used the term wild wild west, Well all I can say is I carry a weapon to protect myself because we are becoming a modern version of the wild wild west.
I pray I never have to draw my weapon, however I would not hesitate to do so if I were threatened.
Proccw

Wentzville, MO

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#16
Jul 14, 2012
 

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Granny 80 and counting wrote:
<quoted text>
Not being disrespectful, but I thank you for your comment which is a fine example of the way some people think about the seriousness of taking a life.
that is just a catch phrase. Taking a life is very serious. Losing your life in a robbery is an unfortunate tragedy. Today's criminals are armed. Today's criminals are hyped up on meth or heroine. Today's criminals have no respect for your life. I respect your right to your opinion, I do not share your same opinion. You are correct, violence begets violence. The criminal starts the violence, we who defend ourselves are eninding it.
Saying

Lake Saint Louis, MO

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#17
Jul 14, 2012
 
Just remember one thing:

If there is a door you can shut between you and the "thug" and you don't shut the door and instead decide to defend yourself on YOUR property which they are tresspassing on YOU will be arrested - at least by florissant police.
Proccw

Lake Saint Louis, MO

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#18
Jul 14, 2012
 
Wow, never heard that one. What about the castle doctrine?
Saying

Lake Saint Louis, MO

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#19
Jul 14, 2012
 

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It must be a municipal thing but Florissant takes it to the limit. I know this as I've lived it. Been there - done that.

They tell you after the fact to put up "NO tresspassing" signs and then when the "thugs" tresspass and you call Florissant police on them the officers that show up basically laugh at you stating they have to see them tresspass before they will even write a ticket for it.

Need more reasons to move?
Proccw

Lake Saint Louis, MO

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#20
Jul 14, 2012
 
Yea, similar everywhere. You can ask them to make a report and put it on file. They probably say they are too busy to investigate a trespass. You could install camera.
Police? Not sure what you want them to do. I have kids cutting through my yard all day, that is trespassing. Not sure what your situation is?
McMillan

Florissant, MO

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#21
Jul 16, 2012
 
Reverend Vegas wrote:
Open carry is legal in most counties in Missouri. These thugs are locked and loaded and it's summer time. I would really like to carry my firearm unconcealed on my side. I'm a clean cut guy that's obviously NOT some thug type. Are the police going to be troubled by this? Would YOU be troubled by openly armed citizens?
Please tell us some situations that give us the right to draw a firearm to protect ourselves. What if the thug has a knife? a bat? or if a gang of 10 of them is attacking you? Can I draw my firearm legally? If I have reasonable fear for my life can I protect myself? I keep an 18.5 inch (from receiver to end of barrel) 12 GA in my truck. Is that an issue for you?
I know you guys would rather us call you...and trust me I'd rather call you. But there are instances when there is no time and it's an immediate threat.
Please, let us know a middle ground where you feel safe and I KNOW I'm safe. I appreciate everything you guys do..and your job is getting more and more dangerous with these armed thugs.
Please let us know but don't expect us to disarm ourselves in this environment.
Well, the fact that you are a "clean cut guy" probably isn't relevant. People see someone with a firearm who isn't identifiable as a law officer and it's kind of a knee jerk reaction to think trouble coming.

I'm just curious as to where you are going to carry you weapon. You can't go into any public buildings either openly carrying or concealed. You won't be allowed in any stores, sports venues, theaters, hospitals, doctors offices, or businesses of any sort, and so on and so forth. I guarantee even if there are not signs posted, and almost every place has one, you will be asked to leave the premises. How is a store clerk or anyone of that nature going to know who you are and what your intentions are?

So that leaves the street and/or parking areas or walking around a residential area. All of which will create a situation where someone is most likely to contact the police. And I have a feeling that the cops are not going to take kindly to getting numerous calls concerning such a matter. Maybe you have a tavern you are well known at or a VFW hall something of that nature where no one would object,but other than that, nope, not going to be an acceptable situation to the majority of the public.

It might be legal, but it doesn't make any sense. Unless of course the person is actually looking for a confrontation.

Just for the record, seeing someone toting a gun, no matter if that person is of sterling character doesn't make me feel safe. It makes be more concerned about there being trouble.
NCD

Florissant, MO

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#22
Jul 16, 2012
 
McMillan wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, the fact that you are a "clean cut guy" probably isn't relevant. People see someone with a firearm who isn't identifiable as a law officer and it's kind of a knee jerk reaction to think trouble coming.
I'm just curious as to where you are going to carry you weapon. You can't go into any public buildings either openly carrying or concealed. You won't be allowed in any stores, sports venues, theaters, hospitals, doctors offices, or businesses of any sort, and so on and so forth. I guarantee even if there are not signs posted, and almost every place has one, you will be asked to leave the premises. How is a store clerk or anyone of that nature going to know who you are and what your intentions are?
So that leaves the street and/or parking areas or walking around a residential area. All of which will create a situation where someone is most likely to contact the police. And I have a feeling that the cops are not going to take kindly to getting numerous calls concerning such a matter. Maybe you have a tavern you are well known at or a VFW hall something of that nature where no one would object,but other than that, nope, not going to be an acceptable situation to the majority of the public.
It might be legal, but it doesn't make any sense. Unless of course the person is actually looking for a confrontation.
Just for the record, seeing someone toting a gun, no matter if that person is of sterling character doesn't make me feel safe. It makes be more concerned about there being trouble.
Yeah, that's what I was more or less thinking. There are no places that are going to let you come in wearing a sidearm in plain view. Unless you are just going to be walking the streets letting everyone know you are armed, there doesn't, IMO seem to be any reason to do it.

I think havin a concealed weapon is a better option. Even if a place is posted, it isn't likely they are going to know you are carrying. Besides that you are going to avoid all the hassle of explaining to a cop everytime someone calls in about a guy or gal walking around with a gun.

There's absolutely no way to tell what someone carrying a gun in plain view is going to do or not do. Why set yourself up for a lot of pointless aggravation when you can just stick it under shirt. Geez, you can't go in anywhere without a shirt and shoes anyway so what's the big deal about carrying where it can't be seen?
McMillan

Florissant, MO

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#23
Jul 16, 2012
 

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Saying wrote:
It must be a municipal thing but Florissant takes it to the limit. I know this as I've lived it. Been there - done that.
They tell you after the fact to put up "NO tresspassing" signs and then when the "thugs" tresspass and you call Florissant police on them the officers that show up basically laugh at you stating they have to see them tresspass before they will even write a ticket for it.
Need more reasons to move?
Really? I guess it depends upon which officer responds. I had a "wise guy" grab one of my hanging baskets off the carport toss it on the ground. He and I exchanged a few words, another neighbor called the cops and the kid was taken into custody. I didn't even have to file a complaint, they charged him with criminal trespass destruction of private property and creating a public nuisance .

I keep reading on here about the problems people have had with the FPD. I've asked around my neighborhood, in Florissant stores at the parish soccer games and no one has a single complaint. Go figure!
Sec Amend

Florissant, MO

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#25
Jul 16, 2012
 

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Reverend Vegas wrote:
You can not draw a firearm on someone for trespassing on your property...That's silly...and you'd be setting yourself up for a Trevon Martin type situation.
Let's stop with the "WHAT IF's" and go to a real situation where the firearm owner isn't a complete asshole that feels like a big man because he has a gun.
I'm talking about situations that are dire. Such as an armed robbery in front of your face. Or someone trying to car jack you. Or someone INSIDE your home.
Those are some of the reasons that a person can draw a firearm. Even if someone was in my home and UNARMED I wouldn't plug em...that irresponsible. and blood is really hard to get out of carpets.
You hold them until the cops get there in that case. If an intruder turns tail and runs...let em run. It's better than f'in up your house with buckshot and blood.
Many of the people here sound like they have no clue about the truth on firearms...just knee jerk reactions that coincide with their ignorance on the subject.(with the exception of a few that do)
Those people I never meant this thread for and you offer no real insight to my question. I'm not too concerned about feelings, more so with legal ramifications pertaining to open carry.
If the pieceofshit is in my house, he will only be leaving it in a body bag. F--k the drywall and carpet, I can replace that shit easier than I can my wife and kids. Screw ccw and open carry argument. In my house the 2nd amendment applies and nobody will take that away from me.

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