TIF to the People

O Fallon, MO

#61 Jun 14, 2010
Improve or perish wrote:
Regardless of how you feel about TIF, TDD, Community Improvement Districts, Tax Abatement programs, and all the others.
Failure to push forward and to make improvements in the infrastructure and the economic base, will eventually result in decline and failure.
Read the "Walnut Park" topix here.
Look what has happened to Wellston, Kinloch, etc.
Cities, Counties and States compete for Economic Development Projects in an effort to creat jobs, improve tax base, extend retail areas, improve roads and infrastructure, etc.
Either you compete, or you get left behind.
If left behind, even the staunchest of supporters give up and move on, leaving behind a disaster.
Doesn't it make sense to make the improvements and finance the upgrade?
Pay now, or pay latter. There is always a day of reconing.
Lack of economic development did not lead to Walnut Park's decline. Influx of crime and poverty did. Crime scared away people who cared about their homes. Declining neighborhood upkeep made this spiral worse. Poverty led to decline in home improvements. That made more people move.

Perhaps what is needed is homeowner tax incentives along the lines of what was given in the City of St. Louis. Look at the revitalization going on over the past decade in the downtown Loft District, Soulard, Lafayette Square, Garden District, etc., etc. Property values are way up in most city neighborhoods.

If Florissant or St. Louis County gave tax abatements, the way developers get them, people would move back and improve homes.

PEOPLE FIRST, RIGHT, give TIF to the people!
Bill L

Florissant, MO

#62 Jun 14, 2010
TIF to the People wrote:
<quoted text>
Lack of economic development did not lead to Walnut Park's decline. Influx of crime and poverty did. Crime scared away people who cared about their homes. Declining neighborhood upkeep made this spiral worse. Poverty led to decline in home improvements. That made more people move.
Perhaps what is needed is homeowner tax incentives along the lines of what was given in the City of St. Louis. Look at the revitalization going on over the past decade in the downtown Loft District, Soulard, Lafayette Square, Garden District, etc., etc. Property values are way up in most city neighborhoods.
If Florissant or St. Louis County gave tax abatements, the way developers get them, people would move back and improve homes.
PEOPLE FIRST, RIGHT, give TIF to the people!
Boy have you got that right.We would love to make our bedroom bigger with a large walk in closet and remodel our master bath. It would cost about 25G's to do. But if we do it our taxes go up our sewer bill goes up. There is no incentive to to make my house any nicer.
How GREAT would this be... If you have lived in a house for more than say 5 years and you expand or remodel there would be no new taxes on your home until you sell and then it would be refigured at the new tax rate for the new owners????

“Common Sense Is -”

Since: Mar 10

Not So Common"

#63 Jun 14, 2010
>>Harry the Devil<<
"If you really believe in our free market as you say, then why are you against Walmart?"

I think I've already made my stance clear on that one.

>>Harry the Devil<<
"You seem to think we have too many laws by your statement "There are so many laws and regulations that protect us it borders on the ridiculous." Yet removing some of those laws and regulations could provide Walmart with even more advantages."

Reread the post, not my point, "The problem usually is that the existing laws are not adequately enforced,"

>>Harry the Devil<<
"Your philosophy and ethical beliefs tell you that what Walmart does is unacceptable. But it is unacceptable to YOU."

It should be unacceptable to everyone. And I understand that Walmart isn't the only one, they're just the subject here.

>>Harry the Devil<<
"So it does not seem to be a question of too many regulations, it is more a question of WHICH ones work well and which don't. But that is completely subjective too."

They need to be effectively enforced like any law to figure out which ones work well.

>>Harry the Devil<<
But "unfair" or "fair" are completely subjective also.

Since when?

“Common Sense Is -”

Since: Mar 10

Not So Common"

#64 Jun 14, 2010
Defining Progress wrote:
<quoted text>
This is exactly correct! To some who would benefit (e.g. construction unions or developers), building an endless supply of TIF-strips is progress, even if it creates blight down the road or the emptying of other stores down in neighboring pockets.
Progress or "solutions" to some is "developing" a beautiful, historic and unspoiled confluence to build a 13th casino in a completely oversaturated gambling market which has declining revenue in all but one of the gambling sites. To others, this "develop or die" approach is an unnecessary and damaging mistake.
Remember all the aphshari (spelling?) strip malls.

“I am a Pit Bull ”

Since: Aug 08

on the pantleg of opportunity

#65 Jun 15, 2010
For anyone who cares to know, THF came before the City Council Monday requesting Florissant's approval of an $11 million dollar TIF. This is a company that had over $200 million dollars in revenue last year.

When asked if they were associated with Walmart, they said, "we're their property management company."

The spokesman gave the history of THF, yet never mentioned the company was co-founded by Stan Kroenke who has family ties with and is a former board member of Walmart.

When asked if THF is refused the TIF grant, would Walmart still build on that site? The spokesman replied with a simple, "NO!"

If that location is such a goldmine, why wouldn't Walmart still want to take advantage of the opportunity to serve the community with their wonderful business?

Because they know people from Florissant who want to shop Walmart will shop at one of their other 19 stores within a 25 mile radius. They also couldn't (wouldn't) answer if the Ferguson store would close if this store were to be built.

Council President Keith English wanted to have a straw poll (which has been done before in executive sessions)which would give both THF and the council on where they may stand on the issue. But Mark Schmidt complained about having such a vote taken.

to be continued...
CBN

Florissant, MO

#66 Jun 15, 2010
Thanks for the information Pet.
Arbitrator

Saint Louis, MO

#67 Jun 15, 2010
SolitaryCanid wrote:
>>Harry the Devil<<
But "unfair" or "fair" are completely subjective also.

Since when?
Since the very first negotiation arrived at what was felt to be a fair compromise for both involved parties. There was no mathematical or scientific formula, just an agreement and those agreements vary depending on the attitudes of the parties and many other factors. Usually some line gets drawn and neither party is completely happy with where the line is drawn but if the arbitration is successful both parties walk away satisfied that they did not lose. Fair is arbitrary based on the parties or subjects involved so it sounds subjective to me.
RECALL

Saint Louis, MO

#68 Jun 15, 2010
Pethead wrote:
For anyone who cares to know, THF came before the City Council Monday requesting Florissant's approval of an $11 million dollar TIF. This is a company that had over $200 million dollars in revenue last year.
When asked if they were associated with Walmart, they said, "we're their property management company."
The spokesman gave the history of THF, yet never mentioned the company was co-founded by Stan Kroenke who has family ties with and is a former board member of Walmart.
When asked if THF is refused the TIF grant, would Walmart still build on that site? The spokesman replied with a simple, "NO!"
If that location is such a goldmine, why wouldn't Walmart still want to take advantage of the opportunity to serve the community with their wonderful business?
Because they know people from Florissant who want to shop Walmart will shop at one of their other 19 stores within a 25 mile radius. They also couldn't (wouldn't) answer if the Ferguson store would close if this store were to be built.
Council President Keith English wanted to have a straw poll (which has been done before in executive sessions)which would give both THF and the council on where they may stand on the issue. But Mark Schmidt complained about having such a vote taken.
to be continued...
Thank you very much
RECALL

Saint Louis, MO

#69 Jun 15, 2010
Was the Executive meeting on cable.
CBN

Florissant, MO

#70 Jun 15, 2010
RECALL wrote:
Was the Executive meeting on cable.
Nope. They never are. Wish they were.
RECALL

Saint Louis, MO

#71 Jun 15, 2010
CBN wrote:
<quoted text>Nope. They never are. Wish they were.
thank you

“I am a Pit Bull ”

Since: Aug 08

on the pantleg of opportunity

#72 Jun 15, 2010
RECALL wrote:
Was the Executive meeting on cable.
Recall, the minutes from the Executive Session will be available on the City's website under the "Government" drop down menu under the "Agenda and Minutes" tab.

You can also read some of the recent minutes from both the Executive Sessions and the Council meetings on the same page.

I too wish the Executive Sessions could be televised. But I think it's great that the meeting was moved out into the Council chambers where more residents can attend and see the workings of the Council.
TIF

Park Hills, MO

#73 Jun 15, 2010
The issue with Walmart is that if they open, will they really bring any new revenue to Florissant, or just shift revenue from one place to another. I will bet that cusomers from Shop and Save, K Mart, Schnucks and others will go to Wally World. But where will "new customers" and "new revenue" come from?
I have heard $11 million in TIF and other incentives. It will take many years (up to 23 years allowed for TIF)
TIF IFS

Saint Louis, MO

#74 Jun 16, 2010
It doesn't make much sense to pay Walmart to come in and compete with other companies who have been established commercial entities in a community.
The customer base is more or less fixed and the amount spent in the area isn't going to change enough that opening a Walmart will not negatively the sales at the businesses that are already here.
Walmart won't say if they will close the Ferguson store. If that store were to close it would shift the business from an area that truly needs businesses to prevent decline.
TIFs are being used in ways that were not part of the original intent and in some cases the use of TIFs may be having the opposite affect of the original intent as they pull business from an area which truly needs the business into one not nearly as needy.
The entire usefulness of TIFs come into question. Giving incentives to companies that are already very successful makes no sense at all.
The more successful companies and people use to pay more taxes and now success means getting extra breaks others do not get.
That makes no sense and if it did we would need to start punishing or raising the taxes of companies and people that are not as successful.
In a sense, maybe we are.
the reaper

Park Hills, MO

#75 Jun 18, 2010
ive been in florissant for 25 yrs it was great when eagan ran it but not now, i hope to see walmart come here ,why, because to many of the small businesses can jack their prices up ,just like schnucks they run sales sales my ass, handyman they rape you on prices, and dont tell me they are small so they cant buy as cheap if they were cheap they would have more business which means more sales and they will allso cut your throat since they have out of store services now i hate to see any small store fold but dont bite the hand thats feeding you but rely on the hand to bring you up to par with the bigger stores go back to economics 101 suply and demand you must change with the economy if the economy is shakey ajust your prices accordingly once it is back up you can raise prices alittle but what we are seeing is rapeing of the american peoples pocket, get real people if you can buy the same thing cheaper at a diffrent store your going to cause you really have to squeeze that buck now, and i can say this if a small store closes you can bet the owner wont worry cause he has banked his over the yrs but the employes are the one to worry cause he payed them low and charged high so that he could have the golden egg
Harry Reasoner

Saint Louis, MO

#76 Jun 18, 2010
the reaper wrote:
ive been in florissant for 25 yrs it was great when eagan ran it but not now, i hope to see walmart come here ,why, because to many of the small businesses can jack their prices up ,just like schnucks they run sales sales my ass, handyman they rape you on prices, and dont tell me they are small so they cant buy as cheap if they were cheap they would have more business which means more sales and they will allso cut your throat since they have out of store services now i hate to see any small store fold but dont bite the hand thats feeding you but rely on the hand to bring you up to par with the bigger stores go back to economics 101 suply and demand you must change with the economy if the economy is shakey ajust your prices accordingly once it is back up you can raise prices alittle but what we are seeing is rapeing of the american peoples pocket, get real people if you can buy the same thing cheaper at a diffrent store your going to cause you really have to squeeze that buck now, and i can say this if a small store closes you can bet the owner wont worry cause he has banked his over the yrs but the employes are the one to worry cause he payed them low and charged high so that he could have the golden egg
I disagree with most of your points.

I shop for a lot of hardware and building supplies. Handyman is not that far off the prices at the big box stores and the services at Handyman are much better which is often worth a few cents difference.

All the stores use "sales" on some items to get you into the store in hopes you will buy some other things at more profitable prices. That is well known by many.

Walmart does to play by the "Economics 101" rules you seem to think govern commerce. Walmart stacks the deck in various ways.

The economy is likely suffering in part because of consumers with an attitude such as your own and who also have a similarly weak understanding of economics.
RECALL

Saint Louis, MO

#77 Jun 18, 2010
A 10 to 15 million TIF is not Econ-101. It is a rip off. Read McConnell and Brue concerning their thought of TIFs. Besides; http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/...
To Tell the Truth

Saint Louis, MO

#78 Jun 18, 2010
RECALL wrote:
A 10 to 15 million TIF is not Econ-101. It is a rip off. Read McConnell and Brue concerning their thought of TIFs. Besides; http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/...
Everyone who thinks Florissant needs a Walmart should be required go to the http://www.peopleofwalmart.com website you linked in your email and look at the photos of Walmart customers for 10 to 20 minutes.
Then think about that millions of dollars in TIF Walmart wants from us to build here in Flomo.
And then think about what that all means.
Walmart, the home of low(life) prices!
Talk about "There goes the neighborhood!"

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#79 Jun 18, 2010
Harry Reasoner wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree with most of your points.
I shop for a lot of hardware and building supplies. Handyman is not that far off the prices at the big box stores and the services at Handyman are much better which is often worth a few cents difference.
All the stores use "sales" on some items to get you into the store in hopes you will buy some other things at more profitable prices. That is well known by many.
Walmart does to play by the "Economics 101" rules you seem to think govern commerce. Walmart stacks the deck in various ways.
The economy is likely suffering in part because of consumers with an attitude such as your own and who also have a similarly weak understanding of economics.
What do the teenagers know about hardware at Handyman? They don't own homes...have no experience besides chucking bags of mulch and say things like "Jiggy-boo" no joke...he said that....

The prices are much higher....18 bucks for a 18mm socket that was made in China. I can buy a whole set at Harbor Freight for that...made in China..with a lifetime warrantee.
I'd pay extra for American...but Chinese crap is Chinese crap.
and I'll pay accordingly for Chinese crap.

I'll go to Handyman if I need a key made...but Home Depot has more selection and a better price. BOTTOM LINE.
Being someone who worked in hardware throughout my younger years...I know what customer service is suppose to be for this type of hardware store..and if it was there...I'd be a frequent customer. But it's not....
I know what to expect...you might as well go to home depot.
Harry Reasoner

Saint Louis, MO

#80 Jun 18, 2010
Poo Taco wrote:
<quoted text>
What do the teenagers know about hardware at Handyman? They don't own homes...have no experience besides chucking bags of mulch and say things like "Jiggy-boo" no joke...he said that....
The prices are much higher....18 bucks for a 18mm socket that was made in China. I can buy a whole set at Harbor Freight for that...made in China..with a lifetime warrantee.
I'd pay extra for American...but Chinese crap is Chinese crap.
and I'll pay accordingly for Chinese crap.
I'll go to Handyman if I need a key made...but Home Depot has more selection and a better price. BOTTOM LINE.
Being someone who worked in hardware throughout my younger years...I know what customer service is suppose to be for this type of hardware store..and if it was there...I'd be a frequent customer. But it's not....
I know what to expect...you might as well go to home depot.
I let the teens help load things but I really don't go to them with questions or for services. Experience tells one to seek experience.

I find it amusing that, in your anecdotal story, the use of the word "jiggy-boo" may in some way bothered you, a person who sprinkles so many derogatory terms in their communications.

Yes, Chinese products abound in our stores. But it fairly is easy to look at a product, read labels and determine the value of a product. Clever shoppers do it all the time. But not every one is clever are they?

Home Depot also makes keys, so no need to just go there to get keys made.

You say you "...know what customer service is suppose to be..."? With the bad attitude and weak communication skills you show here, one might not suspect that customer service would be the best match for your skill set.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Florissant Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
New fear: What happens in Ferguson if no charges? 26 min brad 3,010
Who would make BEST Florissant Mayor in 2016 21 hr Future Vision 99
Vintage Florissant! (Jan '08) Wed GAD 667
Are you willing to defend your community? Wed Violence Of Action 12
29 arrested in St. Louis area violence, police ... Tue da white troll 1
Rules to live by Mon Father figure 1
Executive Order Nov 24 Tommy Schneidder 1
Florissant Dating
Find my Match

Florissant People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

Florissant News, Events & Info

Click for news, events and info in Florissant

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]

NFL Latest News

Updated 5:57 am PST

NBC Sports 5:57AM
Report: Indy ready for "remote possibility" of Rams game moving
CBS Sports 7:07 AM
Chiefs S Eric Berry has tests on mass in chest, waiting on results
NBC Sports 9:35 AM
NFL: Rams-Raiders will remain in St. Louis
CBS Sports10:05 AM
Eric Berry: 'Enjoy the day and don't worry, we're #BERRYSTRONG'
Bleacher Report12:08 PM
Betting Odds, Prediction for Raiders vs. Rams