Full story on the Casino project

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories...

yea. black folks need more places to lose they money. yep yep.

The question is the wrong one. Another indicates that there is already a casino in Spanish Lake.

Can't understand why Spanish Lake would be opposed as the complex would be on the extreme edge of Spanish Lake. If the association is so active then why haven't they been instrumental in cleaning up the Spansih Lake area, not esthetically but with the crime that permeates the area.

If its anything like the other casinos Spanish Lake should definitely let them build there.

Residents in Maryland Heights benefit greatly from the casinos being there.

MOM wrote:

If its anything like the other casinos Spanish Lake should definitely let them build there.
Residents in Maryland Heights benefit greatly from the casinos being there.

I don't go to the casinos so I don't know the answer to this question: Isn't the gambling pie only so big and any future casinos would just cut the pie into smaller pieces? Isn't the Alton Belle already hurting for business? Just asking.

flo town old fart wrote:

The question is the wrong one. Another indicates that there is already a casino in Spanish Lake.
Can't understand why Spanish Lake would be opposed as the complex would be on the extreme edge of Spanish Lake. If the association is so active then why haven't they been instrumental in cleaning up the Spansih Lake area, not esthetically but with the crime that permeates the area.

The question is okay, just ambiguous. You are just taking it for the wrong meaning.

I have never been to a casino. The idea has no interest to me. I would rather spend my money on other activities.
I think if you could figure out a way to keep people who are weak of mind or weak willed from creating problems in their lives with gambling, I would not have any problem with gambling.
As a society we stopped gambling for decades because of the problems it caused for many people.
We tend to be poor students of history and our collective-memory is short. We often forget why people in the past did things. Then later someone says, "Hey we don't need this regulation anymore...it is outdated!" Sometimes things are truly outdated. Sometime it seems we must learn the lesson all over again.

Marcus Welby wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't go to the casinos so I don't know the answer to this question: Isn't the gambling pie only so big and any future casinos would just cut the pie into smaller pieces? Isn't the Alton Belle already hurting for business? Just asking.

I don't go on a regular basis and when I do go it is usually pretty crowded around the tables.

There is also a new one being built downtown. River City, I believe is the name of it.

There is no limit or restrictions on the number of churches built or opened, why should or would we limit casinos?

At least casinos pay taxes, give jobs, and share the wealth.

I am not anti church, but think things should be fair and balanced.

Points to ponder wrote:

There is no limit or restrictions on the number of churches built or opened, why should or would we limit casinos?
At least casinos pay taxes, give jobs, and share the wealth.
I am not anti church, but think things should be fair and balanced.

The US Constitution states freedom to worship and a separation of church and state.

Is there a provision in the US Constitution that states the freedom to gamble away money needed to sustain the family of the gambler? If things should be fair and balanced then legalize prostitution, pornography and drugs.

Do we need another casino? in Spanish Lake?
For those who do not gamble-NO. It is a choice, no different than which church.
When was the last time anyone visited Spanish Lake, and why did you go there?
Did you go there for entertainment, to eat at a restaurant, or visit a county park?
Is there any interest to anyone of the area east of 367 and North of 270?
Is anyone willing to move their or shop in that area?
Is anyone willing to work in the area or start a business in that area?

Some 30+ years ago the state wanted to improve 367, a group who opposed the improvement got their wish, and the state diverted funds to other projects of desire.
Would it of made a difference to the area east of 367 if the highway would have been improved?

Has anyone been willing to incorporate this area from the county? NO, why, because there is no tax base substantial enough to run and operate a municipality. Assessed values residential and limited commercial are at an all-time low.

Why is this area for years been so attractive for apartments? It is the highest concentrated area for multifamily units. Why is this area become the most disruptive behavior area of today's youth? Why is the limited business community experiencing such a high shoplifting rate? Why has there not been any new residential (single-family) development start in the area? When was the last business (commercial) of substance built in the area?

Why was this article printed In Depth: America's Fastest-Dying Towns - Forbes.com

What has changed in the areas where-Harrahs, Station Casino, and Casino Queen?
They have all improved ! Road structure, growth of new businesses, area cleaned up dramatically,
existing businesses improved, residential homes sold, residential home growth, assessed values inclined, all taxing districts received a substantial increase in tax revenue, immediate area unemployment rate lowered, street crime drastically reduced, and has become an area attracting tourists, just to name a few things. Yes I support it. Mark

If exploiting vices to make a profit is okay, why stop at gambling? Why shouldn't people be able to choose their vices? Maybe there could be a red light district too. What about legalizing drugs? Why limit entertainment to gambling?

Proponents of gambling argue that most people will either not gamble or will gamble responsibly the profits are worth the few who fall victim to problem gambling. The same argument applies to any vice. We still have tobacco because it is a personal choice and because it makes a huge profit. We can't stop a responsible majority from using something responsibly just because a few abuse something.

If there is profit to be made why not make it? If a few can get rich by exploiting others, or the weaknesses of others, while creating some economic trickle down, why not? That is capitalism and a truly FREE market. Don't ban it, regulate it! That's the American way. Let people choose. Gambling is just another choice.

But why does Spanish Lake get a casino? Why not let every community who feels they need a casino to help their tax base have one? Make it a truly free market and let market forces do what they do best. The free market can solve all problems. Let's make it a truly free market.

Mark J B wrote:

Do we need another casino? in Spanish Lake?
For those who do not gamble-NO. It is a choice, no different than which church.
When was the last time anyone visited Spanish Lake, and why did you go there?
Did you go there for entertainment, to eat at a restaurant, or visit a county park?
Is there any interest to anyone of the area east of 367 and North of 270?
Is anyone willing to move their or shop in that area?
Is anyone willing to work in the area or start a business in that area?
Some 30+ years ago the state wanted to improve 367, a group who opposed the improvement got their wish, and the state diverted funds to other projects of desire.
Would it of made a difference to the area east of 367 if the highway would have been improved?
Has anyone been willing to incorporate this area from the county? NO, why, because there is no tax base substantial enough to run and operate a municipality. Assessed values residential and limited commercial are at an all-time low.
Why is this area for years been so attractive for apartments? It is the highest concentrated area for multifamily units. Why is this area become the most disruptive behavior area of today's youth? Why is the limited business community experiencing such a high shoplifting rate? Why has there not been any new residential (single-family) development start in the area? When was the last business (commercial) of substance built in the area?
Why was this article printed In Depth: America's Fastest-Dying Towns - Forbes.com
What has changed in the areas where-Harrahs, Station Casino, and Casino Queen?
They have all improved ! Road structure, growth of new businesses, area cleaned up dramatically,
existing businesses improved, residential homes sold, residential home growth, assessed values inclined, all taxing districts received a substantial increase in tax revenue, immediate area unemployment rate lowered, street crime drastically reduced, and has become an area attracting tourists, just to name a few things. Yes I support it. Mark

My big question is where? Please tell me it will be close to 270, and not back by the conservation area. I would hate to see such a nice thing be ruined by a casino. I dont gamble and I dont think gambling is healthy for anyone or anything but that doesnt mean I am 100% opposed to it. Nobody else wants to do anything there or in north county, why should we complain about this?

Libertarian wrote:

If exploiting vices to make a profit is okay, why stop at gambling? Why shouldn't people be able to choose their vices? Maybe there could be a red light district too. What about legalizing drugs? Why limit entertainment to gambling?
Proponents of gambling argue that most people will either not gamble or will gamble responsibly the profits are worth the few who fall victim to problem gambling. The same argument applies to any vice. We still have tobacco because it is a personal choice and because it makes a huge profit. We can't stop a responsible majority from using something responsibly just because a few abuse something.
If there is profit to be made why not make it? If a few can get rich by exploiting others, or the weaknesses of others, while creating some economic trickle down, why not? That is capitalism and a truly FREE market. Don't ban it, regulate it! That's the American way. Let people choose. Gambling is just another choice.
But why does Spanish Lake get a casino? Why not let every community who feels they need a casino to help their tax base have one? Make it a truly free market and let market forces do what they do best. The free market can solve all problems. Let's make it a truly free market.

I agree.
Spanish Lake is partly a victim of is geography or location. It looked for a time like it would be a great middle class residential area but then it took a turn toward low income housing and like much of north county it became the area of choice for blacks who brought the poverty and social problems of the black community with them from the poorer neighborhoods on the north side of the city of St. Louis. I am not trying to point a finger at blacks, their problems are not all of their own making. The goal of integration or desegregation has merit but the methods of reaching that goal were not very effective. All that happened was the segregation and poverty just got moved into a new neighborhood. Black Jack and Spanish Lake took a harder hit than some areas. It was just a relocation of poverty.
You point is a good one, why should Spanish Lake get the casino. Why not Ferguson? It has problems. Why not Wellston? They have even worse problems. I can think of many areas that need economic stimulus. Just because you have a river in your backyard, you get the added benefit of a possible casino to save your town?. That is not right. If you are going to have gambling make it fair and let anyone have a casino and let the market forces weed out the weak ones.

Mark J B wrote:

Do we need another casino? in Spanish Lake?
For those who do not gamble-NO. It is a choice, no different than which church.
When was the last time anyone visited Spanish Lake, and why did you go there?
Did you go there for entertainment, to eat at a restaurant, or visit a county park?
Is there any interest to anyone of the area east of 367 and North of 270?
Is anyone willing to move their or shop in that area?
Is anyone willing to work in the area or start a business in that area?
Some 30+ years ago the state wanted to improve 367, a group who opposed the improvement got their wish, and the state diverted funds to other projects of desire.
Would it of made a difference to the area east of 367 if the highway would have been improved?
Has anyone been willing to incorporate this area from the county? NO, why, because there is no tax base substantial enough to run and operate a municipality. Assessed values residential and limited commercial are at an all-time low.
Why is this area for years been so attractive for apartments? It is the highest concentrated area for multifamily units. Why is this area become the most disruptive behavior area of today's youth? Why is the limited business community experiencing such a high shoplifting rate? Why has there not been any new residential (single-family) development start in the area? When was the last business (commercial) of substance built in the area?
Why was this article printed In Depth: America's Fastest-Dying Towns - Forbes.com
What has changed in the areas where-Harrahs, Station Casino, and Casino Queen?
They have all improved ! Road structure, growth of new businesses, area cleaned up dramatically,
existing businesses improved, residential homes sold, residential home growth, assessed values inclined, all taxing districts received a substantial increase in tax revenue, immediate area unemployment rate lowered, street crime drastically reduced, and has become an area attracting tourists, just to name a few things. Yes I support it. Mark

I am not against gambling but neither am I pro-gambling.
Comparing the choice to choose gambling with choosing a religion is a poor analogy unless you are saying that giving money to the church is like giving money to casinos. Be careful with that line of reasoning.

One look at a map should clue you in as to why Spanish Lake is in this predicament. Spanish Lake is on the margin between a large population center and a vast flood plain and bottoms land region. It has an access problem.

I've never been to any of the casinos but I have gone to Spanish Lake and the surrounding area to visit parks quite a few times. I also know more people that have visited the parks in that area than the casinos. So based on my personal experience a park is a better idea than a casino. Maybe they need more parks. Or what about an amusement park like Six Flags?

Why is a casino the only answer to their problems?
It will not eliminate the low income housing and apartments. It will not bring any rich or well-off people into the community as residents. At best they can only expect people with money to pass through occasionally.

If the roads get built, will money used for all of that "infrastructure" come from the casino? Or will that be public money from taxes. Wouldn't that just be another subsidy to the casino industry?

Why does every area have to have a commercial enterprise that draws from outside the area?
Following that sort of logic, we need to build casinos or commercial centers in a lot of places to fix their economic woes. Every area that borders the wilderness needs a casino or big commercial center.

Some areas are just not meant to be a big part of the economic picture.

This all reminds me of a North County movement to prevent a Walmart Super Center from being built. I'm not mentioning any people by name. But as I recall someone posting here was adamantly against the new Walmart which would have brought in tax dollars, because it was too close to his home. A group was organized and Walmart was shut out.

Now they throw their support behind a casino? Personally I don't want a casino or a Walmart in my back yard. I will not support any project in other communities that don't want it. It seems someone in this thread has a bad case of the NIMBY syndrome. It is said it will bring 10 million dollars to the state in education dollars. Do you really believe that? Casinos were to be the saving grace of the funding of schools. But my taxes in the Hazelwood School District have done nothing but increase yearly. And our taxes in HSD will continue to increase if we build a Casino on New Halls Ferry.

Just because Spanish Lake doesn't have any development, why push to bring in casinos?
Casinos are a quick easy fix to corporate greed. If a corporation wanted to improve the property and the value, they could solicit manufacturing and warehousing businesses. But casinos are like an instant business. Nothing to manufacture and lower paying jobs verses a manufacturing/warehouse paid jobs.

Is there still the law that casinos have to be on or surrounded by water in MO?

Only 14 casino licenses are available to MO according to the dude on channel 2 the other day, all are taken now but with the President Casino gone there will be an opening when it expires in a couple of years. Specualtion is that Pinnacle, the same company that owned the President will renew and want this spot. This all of course is just according to what the news said. It could all just be BS.

Pethead wrote:

This all reminds me of a North County movement to prevent a Walmart Super Center from being built. I'm not mentioning any people by name. But as I recall someone posting here was adamantly against the new Walmart which would have brought in tax dollars, because it was too close to his home. A group was organized and Walmart was shut out.
Now they throw their support behind a casino? Personally I don't want a casino or a Walmart in my back yard. I will not support any project in other communities that don't want it. It seems someone in this thread has a bad case of the NIMBY syndrome. It is said it will bring 10 million dollars to the state in education dollars. Do you really believe that? Casinos were to be the saving grace of the funding of schools. But my taxes in the Hazelwood School District have done nothing but increase yearly. And our taxes in HSD will continue to increase if we build a Casino on New Halls Ferry.
Just because Spanish Lake doesn't have any development, why push to bring in casinos?
Casinos are a quick easy fix to corporate greed. If a corporation wanted to improve the property and the value, they could solicit manufacturing and warehousing businesses. But casinos are like an instant business. Nothing to manufacture and lower paying jobs verses a manufacturing/warehouse paid jobs.

The state legislators pulled a "Lowery" with the casino money. Yes, the casino money does go to pay for education now. But a lot of money that use to go to education now goes elsewhere. Give with the right hand and take with the left.

You are correct, manufacturing is where the REAL money comes from. But no one wants to pay REAL prices. They want everything dirt cheap. So we get stuff made overseas where they can use what amounts to slave labor instead of paying real wages here.

People overseas are willing to work for next to nothing just to survive. The wealthy at the top over there benefit. The wealthy at the top here ship in those goods and sell them to us and the people at the top in both countries get richer while we stagnant and do not get a fair wage for an honest days work. It will keep going until we reach poverty wages and are willing to work just like the people overseas or until we put our collective interests above the greed of a few.

If we all made all of our own stuff and needs, the smartest and strongest would be the most successful and have the most bountiful lives. But once we start working for others there is that problem of how the profit gets divided. As long as someone is willing to take less, it just keeps tipping the scale in favor of those who already have the most.

In time we eventually arrive at a situation we current see where the people at the top take a huge portion of the profits and dole out a very very small portion to the people actually doing the bulk of the work. Seriously, is anyone's efforts really worth 10,000 dollars an hour? That is what a great many executives earn. While a huge number of people earn 10 dollars or less per hour. One persons labor is worth the labor of 1000?
I sure would like to see what a person does to earn 10k and hour.

People say, "Well that is the way capitalism works>" I say yes it is when the rules and regulations are fixed to favor those at the top.

If this keeps up, it will not be long before a great many of us will take any wages just to stay alive.

Monday evening there was a report about the CEO of a medical insurance company whose salary boiled down to over $10,000 per hour and that wasn't an 8 hour day, but a 24 hour day.

US corporations are exporting all of the manufacturing jobs they can to make a larger profit. The executives are never going to suffer until Americans can't afford their foreign made products.

The federal government as well as corporations are turning our once great manufacturing country into a service industry country. And we'll be competing with illegals for a typical service industry job, such as hotels, restaurants and casinos.

Is there someone here that heard the mayor talking about the proposed casino at one of the recent meetings? I'm not trying to start a squabble about the mayor or the city. It seems I heard Mayor Lowery mention letters that were circulating about the proposed casino in Spanish Lake.

If anyone can be of help, please comment.

Crab,#12; you can view submitted site plans to the project at St. Louis County planning commission public hearing notice #ph08-10-09 the project number isP.C.32-08. The new development entrance is exactly 1 mile north of Highway 270. The casino building itself is 1 mile east of the entrance away from the road. Per STATE LAW it has to be within so many feet of the river.

DLC,#13; I agree many areas need new development to stimulate the tax base. I agree many areas are worse off such as Wellston. Those areas need to work at attracting commercial or residential to boost property values. But the voters of the state of Missouri voted specifically on gambling a dozen years ago. The state of Missouri's legislators are the ones who wrote the laws and rules, not us in the county. State law requires a river, I believe the term is navigable waterway. I agree it's not right because one has a river and another does not, but 81% of the voters agreed. Did you get out on election Day to vote?

Another View,#14; I apologize for being unclear. My analogy, meant to be, pertained to the variety of religions; Catholic-Lutheran-Baptists-Met hodist-Pentecostal-Church of Christ-Christian Church-and the list goes on. Who is to say because I'm Catholic that their god is better than mine. I did not mean for anyone to have to choose either going to church or to the casino on a Sunday morning. But you bring up a good point, tax exempt churches thrive on – bingo, card parties, Raffles, 50-50, pull tabs, horse racing, mouse races, casino nights, but I guess that's not really gambling because it is a charity. Lindbergh has many new churches, which I have chosen not to attend, who have spent great wealth in improving the property which used to be farm/agricultural ground. The agricultural tax rate is the lowest possible. At least when it was being farmed it did contribute some property tax revenue. Churches contribute nothing because there are exempt. I agree a park would be nice but the property owner of 376 acres would have to donate it. Maybe someone needs to speak to the property owner and convince them that is what should be done. It is in the state statute that allows gambling, approved by the voters, that no subsidy, TIFF, or tax incentive shall be allowed to build such establishment or make improvements to state roads. Economics 101 teaches the value of any community.
Commercial, industrial and residential all contribute at different rates to build a tax pool in order to have any community. In St. Louis County commercial enterprise pay a larger rate, based on roughly 31% of assessed value, where residential pays roughly 18% of assessed value at a lower rate. Commercial owners have no voting rights unless they live within the community that their business is. The residents vote on the fate of a commercial owners property tax.

I hope this helps mark