Lesbian/gay community deserves more t...

Lesbian/gay community deserves more than second-class citizenship

There are 176 comments on the HendersonvilleNews.com story from Jul 19, 2009, titled Lesbian/gay community deserves more than second-class citizenship. In it, HendersonvilleNews.com reports that:

Published: Sunday, July 19, 2009 at 4:30 a.m. Last Modified: Friday, July 17, 2009 at 7:24 p.m. At a recent chapter meeting the Flat Rock/Hendersonville PFLAG decided to speak out for marriage equality for all people.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at HendersonvilleNews.com.

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tomas

United States

#1 Jul 19, 2009
Yes, we do. There are about 40 million illegal immigrants in our country; they have more rights than gay Americans who are legal and for the most part upright citizens who pay taxes, work hard, and try and obey the laws.
tomas

United States

#2 Jul 19, 2009
Sorry, gang, I meant 11 million illegal immigrants. I am largely asleep at 6am. However, the point is we discriminate against the good guys and allow the bad guys to go ahead.

Since: Dec 08

Toronto, ON, Canada

#6 Aug 4, 2009
Glad to see that the Blue Ridge News published this. Hendersonville is a lovely little community at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains, if anyone is curious. Its cemetery contains the monument that was used as cover photo for the book "Look Homeward Angels."

“Hello homo sapiens sapiens.”

Since: Mar 07

A galaxy near you.

#7 Aug 5, 2009
tomas wrote:
Sorry, gang, I meant 11 million illegal immigrants. I am largely asleep at 6am. However, the point is we discriminate against the good guys and allow the bad guys to go ahead.
Who says the illegals are bad guys? They want to be a part of the American Dream too.

To tell the truth, if my family was hungry I wouldn't let an arbitrary governmental policy or a border stop me either.

While we're at it, why do you think Mexicans cross the border and head directly to...... say....Dalton Georgia?
Could it be that the factory owners recruit them because they can get away with paying significantly lower wages?

Unless you are a Native American your ancestors were immigrants too. Land was cheap so that the western frontier could be expanded once upon a time. Businessmen wanted cheap labor from those who did not know what their rights were or what to do about it. Read The Concrete Jungle.

I'm not saying it isn't a problem, but you seem to be fuzzy on this whole "bad guy" thing.
really

Summerville, SC

#8 Aug 5, 2009
AH! The American Dream. Slither across the border in the darkness. Go on welfare, get free health care. get a job with no papers, drivers license. most cannot even speak the language. Yes, the American dream.
Meanwhile, My wife, who came from another country, did things properly,
paid big bucks for a green card, The immigration office keeps tabs on her. She had to be sponsored, she had to have a job. What is wrong with this picture?
Do you wonder why some people are getting annoyed? I realized these people can contribute to this country, but the government should make it easier to immigrate legally to this country. They are always putting the cart before the horse.
Ghost Dog

United States

#9 Aug 5, 2009
DebJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Who says the illegals are bad guys? They want to be a part of the American Dream too.
To tell the truth, if my family was hungry I wouldn't let an arbitrary governmental policy or a border stop me either.
While we're at it, why do you think Mexicans cross the border and head directly to...... say....Dalton Georgia?
Could it be that the factory owners recruit them because they can get away with paying significantly lower wages?
Unless you are a Native American your ancestors were immigrants too. Land was cheap so that the western frontier could be expanded once upon a time. Businessmen wanted cheap labor from those who did not know what their rights were or what to do about it. Read The Concrete Jungle.
I'm not saying it isn't a problem, but you seem to be fuzzy on this whole "bad guy" thing.
Anyone born in America is a "native American". Indians migrated from Asia thousands of years ago, some by boat and some over a land bridge that connected between what is now Russia and Alaska. Mexicans don't want to assimilate into American society, they live in their own little mexicos here in America and refuse to learn english or change and accept American culture.

Since: Dec 08

Toronto, ON, Canada

#10 Aug 5, 2009
As long as this has gotten completely off-topic I will put my two cents in:

First off, Mexicans are by no means the only immigrant group to ghettoize. Go to the intersection of Belmont and Central in Chicago and you'll see a neighbourhood where everyone speaks Polish and does not need to speak English to get buy. Go to Brighton Beach in Brooklyn; same story but in Russian. Go to almost any Chinatown and people speak in Cantonese all day long.

Secondly, the main reasons people do not assimilate are twofold: For one thing, immigrants who came over to the US during the mass immigration wave between 1890 and 1920 were forced to learn English in school and were not taught in their native language. A good idea, not because I am against cultural retention of the native language at home, but because bilingual education is a failure. Secondly, society in the United State was much more mobile then due to a worker shortage. Nowadays, even the middle class cannot afford to send their kids to Ivy League or top-rated schools. Plus education has become layered due to school support through property tax which essentially renders spending unequal. No education, no assimilation.

Third, Canada, Europe and the United States all fail with immigrants in one regard. They MUST, I repeat MUST, insist that people learn the culture of their new country while still in the old one in order to immigrate. And also insist that they must sign a paper that they will respect that culture or face deportation, even after naturalization. I am not talking about language here but rather about abandoning behaviours that go against cultural norms, like beating up gays or blowing up synagogues. And NO exception should be made for people entering as refugees, despite previous persecution. In the United States, the cultural failure is largely with Mexicans. Here in Canada, primarily with Caribbean people. And in Europe, mostly with Arabs (and some other Muslims).

Fourth, it is a two-sided story. Not only must countries have an immigration system that insures the most educated and valuable immigrants can come in as skilled workers (the United States does not) but also they must make sure both public and private sectors do not understimate the skills of immigrants, assume they need additional education when in fact they do not, and not patronize them (the latter three behaviours are quite noticeable to me here as an immigrant to Canada).
really

Summerville, SC

#11 Aug 6, 2009
I must take issue with your fourth point. If you come into this country LEGALLY, the government insist that you have a sponsor, a job, a green card. If you enter illegally the only skill you need is to able to cross a border undetected.
other point: immigrants tend to ghettoize themselves. The reason is simple. They want to be with people who have similar language and culture. This tends to happen to the less educated groups. The people who legally enter the country are more easily assimilated into mainstream society. Since they are usually more educated, they tend to find jobs which requires them to speak English.
On topic: Gays and Lesbians are more easily assimilated into mainstream society. When a gay couple ask for health insurance as a couple it puts them outside the mainstream. many places in this country are not ready to accept this. actually all LEGAL residence of the US should be entitled to health insurance.
Dumazzez

United States

#12 Aug 6, 2009
really wrote:
I must take issue with your fourth point. If you come into this country LEGALLY, the government insist that you have a sponsor, a job, a green card. If you enter illegally the only skill you need is to able to cross a border undetected.
other point: immigrants tend to ghettoize themselves. The reason is simple. They want to be with people who have similar language and culture. This tends to happen to the less educated groups. The people who legally enter the country are more easily assimilated into mainstream society. Since they are usually more educated, they tend to find jobs which requires them to speak English.
On topic: Gays and Lesbians are more easily assimilated into mainstream society. When a gay couple ask for health insurance as a couple it puts them outside the mainstream. many places in this country are not ready to accept this. actually all LEGAL residence of the US should be entitled to health insurance.
Recently i say in the news a clip of about 300 new citizens taking the oath. It was interesting that there were only 3-5 hispanics in the crowd.
really

Summerville, SC

#13 Aug 6, 2009
What is surprising about that. one of the requirements for citizenship is: you must be a lawful permanent resident and you must be able to speak and read some basic English. That eliminates most.

“Hello homo sapiens sapiens.”

Since: Mar 07

A galaxy near you.

#14 Aug 6, 2009
Ghost Dog wrote:
<quoted text>Anyone born in America is a "native American". Indians migrated from Asia thousands of years ago, some by boat and some over a land bridge that connected between what is now Russia and Alaska. Mexicans don't want to assimilate into American society, they live in their own little mexicos here in America and refuse to learn english or change and accept American culture.
Sorry, you can't rewrite history as you please. I am an American but not a Native American.

People of all cultures have brought their own practices to this country....our cultural roots are founded on this very mixture. Diversity IS American culture.

My Prussian Great-Great Grandfather did not speak English so well either, at least everyone else said so. He often lapsed into German when he wanted to fully express himself.

Children that grow up in bilingual homes, pick up both languages fluently and have an easier time picking up a third and fourth language if they choose.

Have you ever even tried to learn a second language? It's not as easy as you think.

“Hello homo sapiens sapiens.”

Since: Mar 07

A galaxy near you.

#15 Aug 6, 2009
really wrote:
I must take issue with your fourth point. If you come into this country LEGALLY, the government insist that you have a sponsor, a job, a green card. If you enter illegally the only skill you need is to able to cross a border undetected.
other point: immigrants tend to ghettoize themselves. The reason is simple. They want to be with people who have similar language and culture. This tends to happen to the less educated groups. The people who legally enter the country are more easily assimilated into mainstream society. Since they are usually more educated, they tend to find jobs which requires them to speak English.
On topic: Gays and Lesbians are more easily assimilated into mainstream society. When a gay couple ask for health insurance as a couple it puts them outside the mainstream. many places in this country are not ready to accept this. actually all LEGAL residence of the US should be entitled to health insurance.
I agree, legal immigration works best all the way around....again, if my children were hungry and I was healthy enough to do manual labor it might be a different story. How can a person that poor purchase a green card? "

"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..." Ach weil, just words I guess.

On topic, the GLBT Community should be able to assimilate into mainstream history in every way.

Since: Dec 08

Toronto, ON, Canada

#16 Aug 7, 2009
really wrote:
I must take issue with your fourth point. If you come into this country LEGALLY, the government insist that you have a sponsor, a job, a green card. If you enter illegally the only skill you need is to able to cross a border undetected.
other point: immigrants tend to ghettoize themselves. The reason is simple. They want to be with people who have similar language and culture. This tends to happen to the less educated groups. The people who legally enter the country are more easily assimilated into mainstream society. Since they are usually more educated, they tend to find jobs which requires them to speak English.
On topic: Gays and Lesbians are more easily assimilated into mainstream society. When a gay couple ask for health insurance as a couple it puts them outside the mainstream. many places in this country are not ready to accept this. actually all LEGAL residence of the US should be entitled to health insurance.
Many governments, including Canada, accept skilled workers without guaranteed jobs, especially if they have a labour shortage in certain areas. My partner is a nurse with a high degree of education but the problem here in Ontario is that while the bulk of the populace is screaming about shortages and medical waits, the non-governmental organization that independently regulates nursing licensing refuses to allow RN's from outside to sit for the RN exam - they even hassle English speaking nurses from Quebec!

I don't know where you are but I suspect you are thinking only in terms of the US and not internationally. Every country has different circumstances.

Since: Dec 08

Toronto, ON, Canada

#17 Aug 7, 2009
Dumazzez wrote:
<quoted text>Recently i say in the news a clip of about 300 new citizens taking the oath. It was interesting that there were only 3-5 hispanics in the crowd.
Wouldn't the percentage depend on what city they were taking the oath in? Not all places have the same immigration pattern.

Since: Dec 08

Toronto, ON, Canada

#18 Aug 7, 2009
DebJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, you can't rewrite history as you please. I am an American but not a Native American.
People of all cultures have brought their own practices to this country....our cultural roots are founded on this very mixture. Diversity IS American culture.
My Prussian Great-Great Grandfather did not speak English so well either, at least everyone else said so. He often lapsed into German when he wanted to fully express himself.
Children that grow up in bilingual homes, pick up both languages fluently and have an easier time picking up a third and fourth language if they choose.
Have you ever even tried to learn a second language? It's not as easy as you think.
Not sure if you realize it but your Prussian great-grandfather, if he happened to live before WWI (not sure whether you knew him personally or whether the story was handed down) lived in a country where signs in German were as common then as signs in Spanish are nowadays and there was considerable interest in making German a second language (this has nothing to do with Benjamin Franklin - that's an eighteenth century urban legend and I am referring to the nineteenth century). My grandmother (she grew up 100 to 110 years ago) studied German in high school as a matter of course - I don't even know if they offered French.

People in the US forget that conflict over language there has happened before. Only anti-German sentiment in WWI quashed this.
Dumazzez

United States

#19 Aug 7, 2009
JohnInToronto wrote:
<quoted text>
Wouldn't the percentage depend on what city they were taking the oath in? Not all places have the same immigration pattern.
absolutly it does. The news clip was from chicago.

Since: Dec 08

Toronto, ON, Canada

#20 Aug 7, 2009
Dumazzez wrote:
<quoted text>absolutly it does. The news clip was from chicago.
Chicago does not report illegals stopped by the local police, so it has a large proportion of them. Most of the Mexican population there is divided into people whose families immigrated legally quite a while ago and those who are there legally, without a lot of in between.

Also, probably another reason why a higher proportion (to the total number of immigrants FROM Mexico) of Mexican immigrants are illegal is likely that they do not have the skills for HB1 visas and have no reason to be admitted as refugees.
Really

Summerville, SC

#21 Aug 7, 2009
DebJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, legal immigration works best all the way around....again, if my children were hungry and I was healthy enough to do manual labor it might be a different story. How can a person that poor purchase a green card? "
"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..." Ach weil, just words I guess.
On topic, the GLBT Community should be able to assimilate into mainstream history in every way.
It is a fact, you are right. The poor should be able to get in...legally.
the laws are crazy.

“Hello homo sapiens sapiens.”

Since: Mar 07

A galaxy near you.

#22 Aug 7, 2009
JohnInToronto wrote:
<quoted text>
Not sure if you realize it but your Prussian great-grandfather, if he happened to live before WWI (not sure whether you knew him personally or whether the story was handed down) lived in a country where signs in German were as common then as signs in Spanish are nowadays and there was considerable interest in making German a second language (this has nothing to do with Benjamin Franklin - that's an eighteenth century urban legend and I am referring to the nineteenth century). My grandmother (she grew up 100 to 110 years ago) studied German in high school as a matter of course - I don't even know if they offered French.
People in the US forget that conflict over language there has happened before. Only anti-German sentiment in WWI quashed this.
Supposedly, our national language - English - only won by one vote or we would be speaking German now.

My Great Great Grandpa Hess came to this country as a young child in the 1840's, no I never knew him. His grandson (my grandfather) unofficially dropped his middle name (Hess) when he served during WWI. When my father served in WWII, they were known and only signed their names as Joe and Fred (as opposed to Joseph Hess_______ and Fredreich__________ My Dad's DD214 only lists him as Fred.

They would lapse into German talking to each other, but no one else.
Annie

Stone Mountain, GA

#51 Aug 25, 2009
DebJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, you can't rewrite history as you please. I am an American but not a Native American.
People of all cultures have brought their own practices to this country....our cultural roots are founded on this very mixture. Diversity IS American culture.
My Prussian Great-Great Grandfather did not speak English so well either, at least everyone else said so. He often lapsed into German when he wanted to fully express himself.
Children that grow up in bilingual homes, pick up both languages fluently and have an easier time picking up a third and fourth language if they choose.
Have you ever even tried to learn a second language? It's not as easy as you think.
Unfortunately, even Indian Princesses have history re-written for them.

However I do agree with you on Hispanic immigrants. My son-in-law is Hispanic. He came to this country when he was only 15. Not for educational reasons, not to live the good life. He came because that was the only was that his mother and four younger siblings could survive.

In one sense their plight is very much the same as that of the gay community. There are those that automatically assume that they can make fun of them, treat them as second class citizens and that they are dishonest and criminals.

I have a gay member of my family and I have an Hispanic immigrant. Neither one of them are treated with the respect that they deserve.

Sometimes Native Americans are either. Then again there are times that none of us receive the respect that we deserve from others.

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