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21 - 40 of 175 Comments Last updated Aug 8, 2013
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#22
Jul 30, 2013
 
William wrote:
"Anyone who repents to do the will of God does a good thing, so your last charge is nullified by the truth of the Christ and all the holy prophets of God from the beginning."
There isn't the first person who ever got to heaven by keeping those laws. And it certainly isn't going to be you.
You might branch out and read more that Paul's books. A number of saints were in the OT. Also note those at the temple - blameless is a common term. Even the oldest text, Job, speaks of these matters of being upright blameless VS wicked. Before the Law God spoke of those He considered friends of God. There are a number of passages that show what Paul said wasn't true. It's been about the grace of God since before man was created, as the stars were placed in the heavens and named by God. Even the grace of God at the fall and when Moses stood up for his brethren Israel when God wanted to destroy them.

But it is only because of His goodness that we find grace - it's not because of us, it's His goodness. I won't argue against that.

But I don't recall much about the grace of God towards those who refuse to even seek to do His will. As the parable of Jesus said of the king who went away and the subjects were not faithful... didn't the king say to bring those unfaithful servants before him and slay them (for their unfaithfulness)?

Luke records the sermon on the mount as condemning those who did nothing with His words, but I believe the Matthew account is the inspired record - and He didn't limit our responsibility to just do one or two things - as the Acts passage quotes Moses that we are to do whatever He says... Again, no one is perfect, but we do need to pay attention to what He said and get busy doing what we know.
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#23
Jul 30, 2013
 
killedjoe wrote:
<quoted text> Question is, the "miracle" of Saul to Paul. Did it really come from The vision of Jesus. Remember, Jesus came to fulfill the prophecy and confirm the laws of Moses. He did not change anything.
According to the Scripture and tests God gave, it doesn't matter if they do wonders, to seduce us away from doing what God said to do - likewise for prophecies that come to pass - if they teach us to not do as God said to do - we are called to obey God and what He said is right. Jesus met the criteria. In fact, all He taught is found in the OT - even the greatest commandments are not new - they are in the Torah.
killedjoe

Lindenhurst, NY

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#24
Jul 30, 2013
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
Christ changed mans thinking, An eye for an eye became turn the other cheek, Do good to those that harm you, Care for the poor, Become humble, put others above yourself, Christ changed the sacrifice from many to only ONE, Himself, Christ brought the man back to a relationship with the Father. Christ gave a picture of Grace that man had not understood. He changed Everything in mans thinking. Thats bible not history.
The "grace of man" is still not understood. If it were, the world wouldn't be in the shape it is in now.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#25
Jul 30, 2013
 
"You might branch out and read more that Paul's books. A number of saints were in the OT. Also note those at the temple - blameless is a common term. Even the oldest text, Job, speaks of these matters of being upright blameless VS wicked. Before the Law God spoke of those He considered friends of God."

See if you can spot yourself in these verses. And then ask yourself if you have anything in common with the commonwealth of Israel, which is what the OT deals with.

Ephesians 2:11-13

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

You, me, and everyone else alive today and since Paul wrote these words is just like these idol-worshipping heathen gentiles. We had not one thing to do with the Israel of the OT, but the God that made Israel the royal and holy priesthood sent his son to die for the likes of these Ephesians, Colossians, and for you and me.

This is God's grace. Not law.
killedjoe

Lindenhurst, NY

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#26
Jul 30, 2013
 
Barnweb wrote:
<quoted text>
According to the Scripture and tests God gave, it doesn't matter if they do wonders, to seduce us away from doing what God said to do - likewise for prophecies that come to pass - if they teach us to not do as God said to do - we are called to obey God and what He said is right. Jesus met the criteria. In fact, all He taught is found in the OT - even the greatest commandments are not new - they are in the Torah.
I wonder how many folks here who claimed to know, what the "greatest commandments are. Within the OT, how do we know who Jesus is. The prophets told us who to look out for. I always find it amazing that the Macabees and the jewish folks celebration of hannaka, yet don't recognized who Jesus is. If you understand who the Macabees were then you know what I am saying.
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#27
Jul 30, 2013
 
Good comments, but none to refute the basic truth - are we to believe the Torah and Jesus, or Paul, when it comes to the Torah? Everlasting word of God, or nailed to the cross? Instructions in righteousness that God desires we do, or just dead letters that comprise the very words of God?
killedjoe

Lindenhurst, NY

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#28
Jul 30, 2013
 
Barnweb wrote:
Good comments, but none to refute the basic truth - are we to believe the Torah and Jesus, or Paul, when it comes to the Torah? Everlasting word of God, or nailed to the cross? Instructions in righteousness that God desires we do, or just dead letters that comprise the very words of God?
Catholic believe that the vision of Jesus to Saul/Paul was from God. Yet books that were left out of the bible from the Nicean Counsel shows that Peter and Paul were fighting a lot. Peter was a hot head. I find it amazing that the CC doesn't have any writings from Peter, yet Jesus gave Peter the authority over his church.. I forgot the words. What you ordain on earth, it is ordain in Heaven. I think it goes something like that. But no book from Peter or even his own Good News.. One reason is that the writing that they do have, is believe to be false. Another words they don't think he wrote them. Again, I find this strange. Why would Peter not write on what he witness.
Wlliam

Birmingham, AL

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#29
Jul 30, 2013
 
"Are we to believe the Torah and Jesus, or Paul, when it comes to the Torah?"

The Torah was for Israel.

You ain't Israel.
Wlliam

Birmingham, AL

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#30
Jul 30, 2013
 
"But no book from Peter or even his own Good News."

And yet Paul got a gospel, directly from the resurrected Christ. Says that God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to it one day. He calls it MY gospel.

Romans 2:16

It shows up again later in Romans 16 and in one of his letters to Timothy.
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#31
Jul 31, 2013
 
Those of God are drawn to the Son, who is the light of life. Those who are drawn to Him hear Him that they may know that what they do is done of God (not of themselves) because they seek to do the will of God, not their own will.

The promise to us who are not fleshly Israel, is through Abraham and his Seed, to all nationalities, not just Israel, and the true Israel of God (kingdom of priests that He desired of Israel to start with) are set apart and holy to do His will from their hearts as the Spirit of promise writes His Doctrine, Commandments, Precepts, Judgments and Promises on their hearts to will and do them.

And backing up to Israel at the start, even the foreigners were required to keep the commandments God had given regarding them.

If everything in the Torah was good, what was missing? First, the prophesied Messiah had not come to fulfill to grace and truth of God. Secondly, God had not yet sent His Spirit freely available to all men as we see fulfilled shortly after His return to the Father in heaven.

How are we to live by the Spirit apart from the Word if God said the Spirit was to be given that He might write His directions on our hearts, that we would seek to do His will from our hearts?

Ez. 36:26,27;

"I will give to you a new heart and put a new spirit within you, I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, you shall be My people and I will be your God. I will deliver you from all your uncleanness...."

Is this word only for Israel? Or is it also to us who believe, repent, are immersed into His name, and who disciple to Him as directed to in the great commission, that we may be instructed in all that He first taught the original disciples, and thereby grow in the truth, grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ? Isn't the Spirit given to write His words on our hearts that we might be able to do His will from our hearts?

Will the Spirit of truth reject the words of truth that He was sent to testify to and aid us with and maintain the seal of promise upon our hearts?
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#32
Jul 31, 2013
 
I've enjoyed the beauty of the bulk of Paul's words in the New Testament as much as anyone else. Most of the Church of Christ's doctrines are derived from Paul's directions and theological explanations, but things like I Cor. 13 are literary genius, as is 'let the word of Christ dwell in you richly.' And his call in I Cor. 7:19 is equally true, that what matters most is keeping the commandments of God. How could I disagree with those testimonies to the gospel of Jesus Christ?

The issue is did Paul at some point depart from telling the truth, as Balaam was once a true prophet who later turned and seduced Israel away from the true will of God? I think this is clearly so, and we need to recognize what was true and try all things according to the previously given truth of God and let our love for God remain in Christ, that we abide in the fullness of His words that lead to eternal life and not find ourselves guilty of ever hearing someone else over what He said we are to believe and do.

Therefore, since He taught upon the Torah and elevated it to the fullness as God desires and directed us, therein we must remain.

Makes sense to me anyway....
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#33
Jul 31, 2013
 
'Think not that I came to destroy or loosen the Law and the prophets'...'not one jot or tittle shall pass from them though heaven and earth pass away'...(paraphrased from the sermon on the mount records)

or

The law was nailed to the cross because the letter of the law brings death, but the Spirit brings life and peace (paraphrased nutshell of Paul's teachings that the previous word of God brings death, but the Spirit brings life) Ezekiel says the Spirit brings the life that allows the Instructions in righteousness be written on our hearts - isn't that what the true prophet said?
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#34
Jul 31, 2013
 
Wlliam wrote:
"Are we to believe the Torah and Jesus, or Paul, when it comes to the Torah?"
The Torah was for Israel.
You ain't Israel.
Those written in the Lambs book of life are the true Israel of God - made up of all nations. They serve their God as a kingdom of priests and are the true Israel of God. Jesus commanded the apostles to teach and testify to the entire world of whatever He had commanded them. So we have the same commandments to abide in as the original disciples had. A few things were for the twelve alone - but precious few. God saved us from our sins and redeemed us to Himself to be His particular treasure. Israel rejected Him as their King. Do we reject Jesus (Y'shua) as our King when we don't do His will, which He said is the will of God, the very words of God testified to from heaven and God Himself?

As Hebrews says, we who reject His testimony will face greater condemnation than those who rejected the word of God given through Moses.
killedjoe

Lindenhurst, NY

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#35
Jul 31, 2013
 
Wlliam wrote:
"Are we to believe the Torah and Jesus, or Paul, when it comes to the Torah?"
The Torah was for Israel.
You ain't Israel.
jesus practice the Torah. The Apostles often said about doing thing like going to the temple. "has it was his custom". Another words the Torah.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#36
Jul 31, 2013
 
"Jesus practice the Torah. The Apostles often said about doing thing like going to the temple. "has it was his custom". Another words the Torah.

Let's see just WHO, exactly, Jesus was sent to preach to during his earthly ministry, and who he sent his disciples to preach to. See if you are in this group of people:

Matthew 10:5-6 (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Wow. Not even sent to preach to the likes of any of us.

Who did he send to preach to the likes of us today?

Paul.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#37
Jul 31, 2013
 
But all y'all probably have swallowed that lie that we today are "spiritual Israel."

LOL!

The Catholic church has really done a number on you if that's the case.
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#38
Jul 31, 2013
 
William wrote:
"Jesus practice the Torah. The Apostles often said about doing thing like going to the temple. "has it was his custom". Another words the Torah.
Let's see just WHO, exactly, Jesus was sent to preach to during his earthly ministry, and who he sent his disciples to preach to. See if you are in this group of people:
Matthew 10:5-6 (KJV)
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 (KJV)
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Wow. Not even sent to preach to the likes of any of us.
Who did he send to preach to the likes of us today?
Paul.
What Church do you go to William?

Looking from the standard Christian viewpoint, looking specifically to the covenants -'old' and 'new'- both were made to Israel and commonly understood to be fulfillment to some regard of the promise of God to Abraham and his Seed.

When, since Abraham, has God made a covenant to the Gentiles that was not the Gentiles benefiting from the promise to Abraham? I don't think you'll find it - but if you do, be sure to let me know!

Paul wrote on the topic of God not being through with Israel, which Jesus also taught the trampling down of Jerusalem until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Didn't Paul also write about the Gentiles being grafted into the true Israel of God? Gentiles are supported by the same roots of the tree we are grafted into. If God is unfaithful to His promise to Israel, we have no good reason to believe He will be faithful to us either - do we?

Perhaps you can calm down and do more study and thinking about the matters we discuss?
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#39
Jul 31, 2013
 
More pointedly to your comment is the fact that Jesus told the apostles to take the gospel to the whole world, making disciples of Jesus, immersing them in the Name, and teaching them to keep the same commandments He had given them. So if what Paul said is not the same as Jesus said, then Paul must be found false. If Paul preached the same gospel message that Jesus did - repentance to do the will of God to prepare for the kingdom of heaven - he wouldn't have taught lawlessness (torahlessness). If the lawless are saved, then why does Jesus specifically say 'Depart from Me, ye workers of lawlessness (iniquity, torahless)?
Barnweb

Canton, OH

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#40
Jul 31, 2013
 
William wrote:
But all y'all probably have swallowed that lie that we today are "spiritual Israel."
LOL!
The Catholic church has really done a number on you if that's the case.
Don't blame the Catholics for my issues - mine are taken directly from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Rather, you have been never been taught the real truth of Jesus Christ - the Testimony of Jesus Christ of the kingdom of God and the promise that blesses all those who actually believe Him and are careful to heed His word.
William

Birmingham, AL

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#41
Jul 31, 2013
 
"Perhaps you can calm down and do more study and thinking about the matters we discuss?"

I'm completely calm. I am also not inclined to claim promises, covenants, and laws that were never written to me to start with.

I have no urge to become a Wanna-Be Jew.

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