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Marion
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Judged:
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1
Well, for a crime like that, four years is not really enough, is it? however, I live in New Zealand, and my mother told me that the United States sentences were a lot tougher. Here, kids charged with murder or robbery or manslaughter or rape are usually automatically tried as adults, but their sentences are a lot less - usually about ten to fifteen years. I think a sentence of ten to fifteen years is enough, but in the United States, it's a lot more - I read of a sixteen-year-old charged with murder was sentenced to eighty years - now, he did kill someone, but eighty years is ridiculous. It's far too much. I think that if they show genuine remorse, as this boy here is apparently doing, then they should be allowed a second chance - not let off, but they should still be let out so young as they still have some life in them - in other words, late twenties to early thirties. This boy will have to live with what he has done for the rest of his life, and that is greater than any sentence a judge could give him. And no matter how tough the sentence is, it will never bring Karen Ertell back.
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Malanie McLellan
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Judged:
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First of all, this boy has shown no remorse. After he murdered her and raped her, he hung out in her house and drove off in her car and then fraudulently used her credit cards. He's only sorry he was caught. His own father says that he is not remorseful. How old were you when you learned right from wrong? People learn not to hurt others from a very young age. He has raped and murdered my mother. I found her body when I was 9 months pregnant with the grandson she will never get to meet. We'll let him out in 15 years and how about we let him live in your neighborhood then? Next door to you? You obviously don't understand the point of a life sentence which is to keep people like him away from law-abiding good people. You're right, a stiff sentence will not bring my mother back, but it will protect the citizens of Honolulu from the likes of this 15-year old rapist and murderer. I only wish Hawaii offered the death penalty like Texas does. Only when you have something so horrific happen to you, then you can be the judge of second chances. Our prison system in the USA is unfortunately flawed in that it makes prisoners better criminals and does not do much in the way of reform.
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Kevin Callahan
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Karen Ertell was my longtime girlfriend. You have no clue as to what happened in this case. This unremorseful monster had broken into Karen's house 5 times previously. Karen had even offered to let him do yard work at her house to pay off his thefts. He never once apologized; he only said he did it becuase it was easy. He told his own father that he killed her to impress his friends. This criminally insane career criminal had broken into many homes in the neighborhood. After he raped and killed her, he stayed in her home for aprroxiamately 3 hours veiwing pornographic websites, and had brought his own pornographic DVDs with him to view while her dead body lay there. I truly hope if he is ever released, they send him back to New Zealand where he can live with in your neighborhood; becuase this country doesn't want him or you here. Marion wrote: Well, for a crime like that, four years is not really enough, is it? however, I live in New Zealand, and my mother told me that the United States sentences were a lot tougher. Here, kids charged with murder or robbery or manslaughter or rape are usually automatically tried as adults, but their sentences are a lot less - usually about ten to fifteen years.
I think a sentence of ten to fifteen years is enough, but in the United States, it's a lot more - I read of a sixteen-year-old charged with murder was sentenced to eighty years - now, he did kill someone, but eighty years is ridiculous. It's far too much. I think that if they show genuine remorse, as this boy here is apparently doing, then they should be allowed a second chance - not let off, but they should still be let out so young as they still have some life in them - in other words, late twenties to early thirties.
This boy will have to live with what he has done for the rest of his life, and that is greater than any sentence a judge could give him. And no matter how tough the sentence is, it will never bring Karen Ertell back.
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Marion
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Well, obviously, I don't know the whole story - I didn't know about the rape bit. Or the pornography bit. I only knew about the murder and I didn't know many details about that either. Also, it wasn't me that formed the judgement that he showed remorse. That was the papers here said he showed genuine remorse, so I guess the papers here don't know everything either. I'm not on his side and I'm not saying he shouldn't be tried as an adult. I'm not saying that what he did was okay. But most New Zealand people are perfectly nice people and they're not like that. I suppose I'm just ignorant of your justice system.
I know you probably hate me now, but I do apologise for forming judgements about the case before I knew the full story - I knew about the murder bit but not about the other stuff so sorry.
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Curtis
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Judged:
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I am ashamed to think that a fifteen-year-old boy from my country could be capable of such an act. Of all the teenage boys I know, while some are uncouth and rude, they're all talk. I couldn't imagine any of them commiting such an awful crime. I feel awful for Karen's family and friends who know all the greusome details about this crime and I also feel awful for the bo responsible's family - after all, they're really good people, and they must be asking themselves, "What have we raised? Where did we go wrong?" I suppose he just got involved with the wrong crowd and went off the rails. However, while I understand your upset about Marion forming judgements before she knew exactly all he had done, Kevin, why do you say she shouldn't go to Hawaii and that if he is released you hope he can come live in her neighbourhood? You're not the Minister for Immigration, and you can't say who can and can't enter the country. I'm sure she's not like him in real life and it's certainly not her fault that this boy did what he did. I must say, I wouldn't be too chuffed about having a burglar/rapist/murderer living in my neighbourhood, but he's gotta live somewhere - you can't keep him in jail forever. While I personally don't think four years is enough, I also think that a stiff sentence by itself won't protect the good citizens of Honolulu - or New Zealand. When Melanie said that in prison, prisoners learn to be better criminals, she was right. As much as we'd like to, we can't keep him in jail forever, and if we're really serious about protecting the good citizens of Honolulu or New Zealand, then this boy despertately needs help, counselling, rehabilitation as well as a decent sentence, as he's really gone off the rails. You also can't deny that someone of his age who goes committing heinous crimes like that has not got some mental health issues - I'm not saying he was insane and didn't know exactly what he was doing, but he obviously is somewhat disturbed.
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sO sAD
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Kevin Callahan wrote: Karen Ertell was my longtime girlfriend. You have no clue as to what happened in this case. This unremorseful monster had broken into Karen's house 5 times previously. Karen had even offered to let him do yard work at her house to pay off his thefts. He never once apologized; he only said he did it becuase it was easy. He told his own father that he killed her to impress his friends. This criminally insane career criminal had broken into many homes in the neighborhood. After he raped and killed her, he stayed in her home for aprroxiamately 3 hours veiwing pornographic websites, and had brought his own pornographic DVDs with him to view while her dead body lay there. I truly hope if he is ever released, they send him back to New Zealand where he can live with in your neighborhood; becuase this country doesn't want him or you here.<quoted text> my condolace murder is tragic and un neccasary we;ve had murder brutal in our family this i relate to fact is crimal gets fed , and more rights for them then what we get as the murderd families relatives and loved ones have . A pain every day .
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sO sAD
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Marion wrote: Well, obviously, I don't know the whole story - I didn't know about the rape bit. Or the pornography bit. I only knew about the murder and I didn't know many details about that either. Also, it wasn't me that formed the judgement that he showed remorse. That was the papers here said he showed genuine remorse, so I guess the papers here don't know everything either. I'm not on his side and I'm not saying he shouldn't be tried as an adult. I'm not saying that what he did was okay. But most New Zealand people are perfectly nice people and they're not like that. I suppose I'm just ignorant of your justice system.
I know you probably hate me now, but I do apologise for forming judgements about the case before I knew the full story - I knew about the murder bit but not about the other stuff so sorry. WHEN YOUR FAMILY TRAGIC STRIKES THEN YOU SO STUPIDLY BLIND CAN SEE , YOU GET ON A SITE MOUTH OFF THERES FAMILIES WHERE TRAGIC happen , And fn out siders need to keep trap shut and show sensitivity its like my family murderd otheres by a creep that still can get medical care , food and all no my family nor can the other person that lost his girl friend , children and families of murderd victims . Evil people have history serve years then out to murder again as in my families case , protect families the 1 that grieves every hoilday , and every day the horrible tragic happen . something is wrong our families that have lost some one brutally never gets over i wonder how these people that protect these creeps live with there outcome you the defensive attorneys you donot care about any of us families that are loved one was taken . what if your family ...
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Marion Wilson
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sO sAD wrote: <quoted text> WHEN YOUR FAMILY TRAGIC STRIKES THEN YOU SO STUPIDLY BLIND CAN SEE , YOU GET ON A SITE MOUTH OFF THERES FAMILIES WHERE TRAGIC happen , And fn out siders need to keep trap shut and show sensitivity its like my family murderd otheres by a creep that still can get medical care , food and all no my family nor can the other person that lost his girl friend , children and families of murderd victims . Evil people have history serve years then out to murder again as in my families case , protect families the 1 that grieves every hoilday , and every day the horrible tragic happen . something is wrong our families that have lost some one brutally never gets over i wonder how these people that protect these creeps live with there outcome you the defensive attorneys you donot care about any of us families that are loved one was taken . what if your family ... What if my family... what? I can understand you are distraught and more besides but I have nothing to do with this and I am sorry to sound harsh here, but the more you bite innocent people's heads off, the less inclined they are to side with you.
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All Righty Then
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Marion, nobody said anything about New Zealanders, nor do I have anything against New Zealanders. It's this kid, more like monster, that did all those horrific things to Ms. Ertell. It sounds like he was forgiven and given opportunites to make things right, but instead, continued on his path of destruction. The murder of Ms. Ertell was the result. Let him out, and he will continue on his downward spiral. Let him think about what he did for at least 25 years. Maybe then he will have learned his lesson.
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Marion Wilson
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Alright. But I still don't think that 'at least 25 years' ALONE will help.
Like Curtis here said, Do you not think that someone his age especially who goes around doing stuff like this is alright in the head? He might not be mentally ill, but he sure sounds like he might have some issues in his head that need sorting out with counselling and some serious rehabilitation. If he is not given this, then whatever length of time he is given in prison, he WILL emerge a more bitter person, and he WILL emerge a more learned criminal and he WILL continue on his 'downward spiral'. But put him through some decent counselling and intense rehabilitation and he will have a real chance at turning over a new leaf.
And excuse my language here, but what about the other faggot that was involved? I understand that there was another guy driving the stolen car too? Why hasn't he been charged? He committed a crime too.
There's another thing. My mother said this might not have happened if he had not got involved with the 'wrong crowd'. She says they were a bad influence on him, and while that does not excuse his actions, the influence might have been part of the cause of them.
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Marion Wilson
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Kevin Callahan wrote: I truly hope if he is ever released, they send him back to New Zealand where he can live with in your neighborhood; becuase this country doesn't want him or you here.<quoted text> I just been thinking about what your post said - that last bit. That's not very nice. Say what you want about him, but me? What have I done? All I have done is expressed an opinion which I have a right to do. I have every intention of visiting this country one day - especially Hawaii, so watch out. Just sayin'.
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Malanie McLellan
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Judged:
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Vernon Bartley has no right to "turn over a new leaf", Marion. He murdered my mother, he took her life away from her. He deserves no second chance. My mother doesn't get a second chance, and we, Karen's family, get a life sentence without her. He deserves to sit in jail for the rest of his sorry life. I couldn't care less about "counseling" for him. Again, you have a right to your opinion, but keep in mind that you have no idea the pain we suffer without Karen.
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Suga
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Judged:
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Malanie McLellan wrote: Vernon Bartley has no right to "turn over a new leaf", Marion. He murdered my mother, he took her life away from her. He deserves no second chance. My mother doesn't get a second chance, and we, Karen's family, get a life sentence without her. He deserves to sit in jail for the rest of his sorry life. I couldn't care less about "counseling" for him. Again, you have a right to your opinion, but keep in mind that you have no idea the pain we suffer without Karen. Malanie McLellan wrote: First of all, this boy has shown no remorse. After he murdered her and raped her, he hung out in her house and drove off in her car and then fraudulently used her credit cards. He's only sorry he was caught. His own father says that he is not remorseful. How old were you when you learned right from wrong? People learn not to hurt others from a very young age. He has raped and murdered my mother. I found her body when I was 9 months pregnant with the grandson she will never get to meet. We'll let him out in 15 years and how about we let him live in your neighborhood then? Next door to you? You obviously don't understand the point of a life sentence which is to keep people like him away from law-abiding good people. You're right, a stiff sentence will not bring my mother back, but it will protect the citizens of Honolulu from the likes of this 15-year old rapist and murderer. I only wish Hawaii offered the death penalty like Texas does. Only when you have something so horrific happen to you, then you can be the judge of second chances. Our prison system in the USA is unfortunately flawed in that it makes prisoners better criminals and does not do much in the way of reform. How can you say somthig like that? You sound like a big kid! Are you actually hearing what's coming out of your mouth? Not to be mean or anything but you sound like a real stuck up palagi at the moment! You dont think he feels bad as it is? He has to live with the fact that what took place was some what his fault! No, I dont know you or your family but we probably seen each other around! But i live a road over from your mother! I aint sayin what went on wasn't wrong or that they should let vernon off the hook just like that! But out of the kindness of your heart [if you have one] you cant even find some thought or feeling of sympathy? Do you think that no one else was in ever in your position?? I guess it doesn't matter what kind of kid he was huh? Good kid, bad kid he still might end up being trailed as an adult! He's so young! I mean do you remember what you where doing at the age of 15? How hard it was to make friends and find your self? You probaly grew up with different crowds and dont understand the reputation that is needed to walk the streets in our neighborhood without getting mobbed! Obviously somthing was up with vernon at the time! i mean i dont know wht was going on in his head while he commited these things but i do know that RAMBLE was right there egging him on ........ I feel sorry for you child! Having to grow up without his grandmother! She must play a eay big role in your aiga [family]. But since she's gone dont you think that you should atleast try to play the role? I mean as a mother you should think more of children//teenagers! I mean how do you think vernons mother feels? Let me guess you never thought of that huh? Well i'll just leave it at that!
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Suga
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Judged:
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Curtis wrote: I am ashamed to think that a fifteen-year-old boy from my country could be capable of such an act. Of all the teenage boys I know, while some are uncouth and rude, they're all talk. I couldn't imagine any of them commiting such an awful crime. I feel awful for Karen's family and friends who know all the greusome details about this crime and I also feel awful for the bo responsible's family - after all, they're really good people, and they must be asking themselves, "What have we raised? Where did we go wrong?" I suppose he just got involved with the wrong crowd and went off the rails.
However, while I understand your upset about Marion forming judgements before she knew exactly all he had done, Kevin, why do you say she shouldn't go to Hawaii and that if he is released you hope he can come live in her neighbourhood? You're not the Minister for Immigration, and you can't say who can and can't enter the country. I'm sure she's not like him in real life and it's certainly not her fault that this boy did what he did.
I must say, I wouldn't be too chuffed about having a burglar/rapist/murderer living in my neighbourhood, but he's gotta live somewhere - you can't keep him in jail forever. While I personally don't think four years is enough, I also think that a stiff sentence by itself won't protect the good citizens of Honolulu - or New Zealand. When Melanie said that in prison, prisoners learn to be better criminals, she was right. As much as we'd like to, we can't keep him in jail forever, and if we're really serious about protecting the good citizens of Honolulu or New Zealand, then this boy despertately needs help, counselling, rehabilitation as well as a decent sentence, as he's really gone off the rails. You also can't deny that someone of his age who goes committing heinous crimes like that has not got some mental health issues - I'm not saying he was insane and didn't know exactly what he was doing, but he obviously is somewhat disturbed. Hey curtis well it aint where he came from that is to blame so theres nothing to be shame about! It's where he was residing! His parents must have thought that our hood was a good place to settle down and raise there kids! When vernon first came down from New Zealand he was quiet and so innocent! he wanted nothing to do with trouble! i should know, in our 7th grade home room it took me atleast a week for him to talk to me and tell me his name! He was and still is a good kid! Maybe if he just stuck to hanging out with his brother and the other poly boys in the circle instead of ramble [22 year old] and his wannah be bangah friends he wouldn't be in this mess! Well i really do HOPE && PRAY that he does recieve the help and proper medical care that he needs!
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Forrest
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Suga wrote: <quoted text>
<quoted text>
How can you say somthig like that? You sound like a big kid! Are you actually hearing what's coming out of your mouth? Not to be mean or anything but you sound like a real stuck up palagi at the moment! You dont think he feels bad as it is? He has to live with the fact that what took place was some what his fault! No, I dont know you or your family but we probably seen each other around! But i live a road over from your mother! I aint sayin what went on wasn't wrong or that they should let vernon off the hook just like that! But out of the kindness of your heart [if you have one] you cant even find some thought or feeling of sympathy? Do you think that no one else was in ever in your position?? I guess it doesn't matter what kind of kid he was huh? Good kid, bad kid he still might end up being trailed as an adult! He's so young! I mean do you remember what you where doing at the age of 15? How hard it was to make friends and find your self? You probaly grew up with different crowds and dont understand the reputation that is needed to walk the streets in our neighborhood without getting mobbed! Obviously somthing was up with vernon at the time! i mean i dont know wht was going on in his head while he commited these things but i do know that RAMBLE was right there egging him on ........ I feel sorry for you child! Having to grow up without his grandmother! She must play a eay big role in your aiga [family]. But since she's gone dont you think that you should atleast try to play the role? I mean as a mother you should think more of children//teenagers! I mean how do you think vernons mother feels? Let me guess you never thought of that huh? Well i'll just leave it at that! How dare you throw Malanie's motherhood in her face to coerce forgiveness for your friend. Just so it is clear, I hate and despise your friend. I loath him. Why such emotion? For starters, I knew Karen for thirty plus years. She was a very good friend of mine. We vacationed together and talked regulary on the phone. She was one of the most wonderful women I have ever been blessed to know. Karen would have done many more wonderful things for people if your friend hadn't taken such perverse interest in her. He stalked her, he beat her, he raped her and then he strangled her until she was dead. Think of the hell she went through at his hands. And then consider how inappropriate it was to throw Malanie's motherhood in her face. Your friend is a murderous sexual predator. I would loath him just for that alone but he selected one of my best friends to be his victim. He told his father he did it to impress his friends and you have already made it clear how important a reputation is in your neighborhood. My friend's life was worth less than your friend's reputation. That says a lot about his character and none of it is good. The system failed Karen and I believe when he is set free, someone else will die at his hands. Putting him away just delays it. Let's hope someone in prison decides your friend's life is worth less than their reputation.
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Marion Wilson
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Forrest wrote: <quoted text>The system failed Karen and I believe when he is set free, someone else will die at his hands. Putting him away just delays it. Let's hope someone in prison decides your friend's life is worth less than their reputation. While I don't agree with everything suga says, Forrest, if he is given the right counselling, and rehabilitation, you might be proven wrong. If the sysem helps him as well as locks him away - he might not reoffend. Melanie says she couldn't care less about counselling - well, without it, he could end up murdering someone else Melanie, had you ever considered that?
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Forrest
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Marion Wilson wrote: <quoted text>
While I don't agree with everything suga says, Forrest, if he is given the right counselling, and rehabilitation, you might be proven wrong. If the sysem helps him as well as locks him away - he might not reoffend. Melanie says she couldn't care less about counselling - well, without it, he could end up murdering someone else Melanie, had you ever considered that? I can't argue with your logic. Personally, I want him locked away for his entire life. I want each and every day to be a living hell to match that which he put my friend through. But that is my personal desire for vengeance and I see it as that. Counseling may help him but, like Melanie, I am not at a point to think about forgiving him. I am not being logical. I am hurting. She is hurting. Karen's family and friends are hurting. Karen was a much loved individual and is deeply missed. Will I ever forgive him? Probably not. I can only hope time will allow me to forget him completely and remember Karen for the wonderful person she was and not how her life was brutally snatched away. Personally, I don’t want to waste resources trying the rehabilitate him. I would much rather invest that money into the neighborhood that spawned him so others don’t turn into something like him. In my book, he is a lost cause and I hope he dies before he ever has access to another victim. But, as I said earlier in this post, I am not logical nor can I be about this brutal rape and murder of one of my closest friends. And this is the end of my posts on this subject. I thought it might help to air my feelings having stumbled across this thread and feeling the victim was completely forgotten but I just find myself feeling angrier at a system that protects people like Vernon at the expense of people like Karen.
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uso ants
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I am a friend of Vena. He is not a bad person. If u guys knew him u would understand what I mean.Yes everybody does wrong but everyone deserves a second chance. So i hope u show some symphathy.
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Malanie McLellan
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a second chance for stalking, raping, and beating and strangling my mother to death? does karen get a second chance? you obviously don't know vernon well enough or you would have known what he was capable of, right?
By the way, "Suga" is Sharon Bartley, Vernon's sister. What if someone raped and murdered your mother? How would you feel? Karen did so much for you and your family and I'm shocked that you don't care about her tragic loss. I would never speak to my brother again if he had done something so awful. No one forced him to do anything. How can you rape somebody out of peer pressure? That is ridiculous. One thing I noticed in all of these posts, not ONE person has stuck up for the victim or victims family. Everyone rushes to support the criminal, the murderer the rapist. Not one person has said how awful of a loss this is for me. I have NO MOTHER, NO GRANDMOTHER to my son. That says it all. No one has said what would be good for me. No one has offered suggestions for my grieving. Everyone talks about the poor murderer rapist and what he needs! I'm shocked. I found my mothers body when I was pregnant after she had been raped and murdered, and yet the sympathy goes to the killer?! I don't care how nice of a person Vernon Bartley was before this crime. Ted Bundy other murderers were also "NICE" to other people but they turned out to be heinous killers. Big deal if he was nice at one point in his life. He ruined my life and my mothers and countless others lives. So a nice person rapes murders and beats and robs someone? That doesn't sound like a bad person to you?
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Malanie McLellan
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Oh and one more thing, how am I a "stuck up palagi" because i'm upset that my mother was raped and murdered by your brother, Sharon? So only stuck up white people get upset when they want justice for a family member being raped and murdered? So why don't you tell me what you expect me to feel, then. So if I had brown skin I would feel differently? That is a bunch of crap. So Karen must've been a "stuck up palagi" too for giving you a job, and teaching you everything about her business and tutoring you in math, right? I'm shocked at you and your low blows all to defend a rapist and murderer. Have you no empathy?
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